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On August 01 2010 04:38 MforWW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 10:47 Doormat wrote:
1. Protoss can also wall off. Have sentries to force field ramps and can warp in units to any powered area with warpgates.
2. No race can power drones like zerg. Therefore for balance they should have to put more effort into defending early pressure.
I'll speak to TvZ because I play Terran but I would assume this applies to Protoss as well:
The big tension is that the Zerg will get a macro advantage and then win because of the advantage producing out of a hatchery provides them. Therefore it is the Terran's responsibility to either win based on more efficient unit composition (which I haven't seen yet) or to put pressure on the Zerg early to prevent the macro advantage. So making it so the Zerg can't defend easily makes this tension balanced otherwise Zergs will just turtle up, get the macro advantage, and win. No race can power drones like zerg? lmao that's such BS. Go ahead and watch some replays of good players. The gatherer count for each side is usually even if the players are evenly matched. This is because zerg actually has to use their larva to make units as well, and every time they make a building, the drone is permanently lost. do you know how expensive a spine crawler actually is in terms of total economic cost? the face value (100 min.) plus the drone (50 min.) 1 larva (hard to place a number on, but trust me, larva are valuable) and the total minerals not collected during the time it takes to hatch the replacement drone. (the cost of the replacement drone is not counted, because that would be double-counting... fyi for all the not economically inclined out there). that considered, i'd say the true cost is at least 200 min. and one can't even take down 2 marauders. hence, spine crawlers generally aren't worth it unless combined with units that'll tank for it or if you're using them to hold off hellions while you tech (thus saving money by not needing to invest in extra queens/roaches). compared to Terran's wall + repair and bunkers, spine crawlers are a joke. /but just b/c defense isn't balanced doesn't mean the meta game isn't balanced. //to continue on my tangent, there were so many skills in brood war that were straight up imbalanced... but because all races had imbalances it was fair. for example, psi storm was ridiculously OP... but so was plague. Blizzard decided to make all the units in SC2 even by nerfing them to death until they all suck equally.
You have quite clearly missed the point. Given no pressure, Zerg can power drones unlike any other race. Thats why the mechanic for defense has to include a reasonable amount of larva and/or minerals or else there is an unbalance. You can argue this should be tweaked but to argue it is a flaw is wrong in my opinion.
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Read the OP and about half the posts, but from what I can tell as of late, it seems that the key point that's being missed is the purpose of each race. Terran is known for being the defender. They always have and most likely always will. Their units are pretty much designed for that, but not in such a way that makes every game a "turtle and starve out your enemy" sort of thing.
The bio ball, however is probably the biggest exception to the rule because of mobility, quick dps, and stim. But keep in mind that stim does have a cost every time you use it and is limited by time. To use it often, T has to get medivacs. Take advantage of this whenever possible by feinting to force a stim and then back off. That's what all the pros did for bw, and the concept should be the same (granted it is a harder due to concussive shells).
As for hellions, yeah they're great for harass and they're used so so much because it's easy in the early game. But when it comes down to metagame, that's how it should be IMO. Early game zerg should just focus on surviving by a thread and making as few units as possible to power drones. That's why T even bothers to harass; they have to abuse the larvae system (choose units or drones, but not both) as much as possible to stay competitive. Kiting effectively IS hard no matter what you say. If they get some sort of critical number, it does become much easier, but remember that you shouldn't be chasing them down with roaches like you're the attacker, just keep them away until you can effectively dispose of them.
For spine crawlers, like any other static defense, you want to avoid making them. Whoever called it a deterrent earlier was completely correct. Otherwise we'd just see TLO style spinecrawler contains being much more commonplace. As a static defense, the purpose of a spine crawler should be for either 1. preventing attack long enough to get some units or 2. defending an area that would be too inconvenient to draw forces over in time. That, along with Starcraft's counter system allows marauders, or a decent sized army to roflstomp all over spine crawlers.
I agree that bunkers are kind of cheap with the salvage ability, but the fact of the matter is, if they're investing in that, their army will be slightly smaller. It won't be much, but it delays them at least. Recognizing that should allow for the smallest bit more powering of drones, and hopefully a stronger army.
I'm sure I missed a lot so please reply with rebuttals and bring up other points (just don't dodge my answers) so that we can go about this intelligently.
As a whole, the point of playing zerg is getting to that economic "overrun your enemy" stage. Like sauron zerg Julyzerg style to a lesser extent. Getting there is a hell of a trip, but that's what leaves zerg with so much potential. I'll go ahead and say that T and P are a lot more straightforward. They don't have to choose workers or units because the buildings are separate. But this isn't to say that zerg is disadvantaged. They have much at their disposal given the right circumstances, and it's just a matter of getting there. Sure creative, strong players can abuse that and force you to make a choice, but later on zerg can do that just as well. Ultimately it comes down to the zerg player creating a swarmy feel. A lot is left to be done in terms of balancing, but it is in no way 1 sided "mass buff for z pl0x." I think a lot of this is because of the gameplay that we see. With micro-oriented play being the name of the game, zergs just don't excel at that. They excel at macroing it up and being able to take over the whole map. As we transition into that style of play with BOs being invented and players feeling out mechanics, we'll be able to see a lot more power in all three races.
EDIT (will keep adding on as I finish reading through the thread): also, a lot of things are being looked at in a vacuum. hellion harass/kiting is great, but if the opposing player over-commits to doing too much, they'll be behind on macro and the such. I'm sure someone's going to try to (or at least want to) argue "but they have a wall so it doesn't matter" which is wrong. Remember that for it to be effective, you're committing time and effort. This is an unmeasurable resource, but it surely plays one of the biggest factors when it comes to relatively well balanced games.
Also, there seems to be the notion that making any units as zerg early game is like an instant gg. People shouldn't have the mindset that "I have to be able to hold with a queen and some spinecrawlers or it's insta-gg". Remember that they're investing in hellions too. Yeah, they can just use the hellions later, but you can use units later too. If you can successfully deter a Terran harass attempt, I feel that the zerg macro mechanics can allow zergs to bounce back a lot faster. The biggest problem with this argument is whether we view it from the point of view of a struggling player, or if we view it from the pro player. If it's as a pro, then the game either needs to develop more or it's simply something that needs to be taken under balance considerations. If however, it is a struggling player, then it should be a help thread rather than an angry IMBA thread.
The point about response time for zerg is dead on. Making spine crawlers as a reactionary defense is much too hard at this point. I disagree that this should be changed though. Blizzard's maps while decent are much less balanced than player made map pools for the most part. All maps will have imbalances toward certain races, but if we give it some time, surely the map pool will expand to a much more competitive level. It definitely sucks to have to wait, but if we think long term, surely it will be beneficial. Beyond even this, keep in mind that changing one thing in a TvZ matchup will ultimately affect other matchups because you're changing a race and not just a matchup.
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I'll believe that Terran is immobile when their medic units can't transport them across chasms, or over cliffs and a single Medivac of stimmed troops can't kill a Nexus in under 8 seconds and then high-tail it out of there before reinforcements show up.
I mean, please. Before you had to make Dropships that had no purpose but for drops. Now you get easily protectable medics (army is too busy shooting your army to focus-fire medics in the sky - the only thing you really have to worry about is Feedback - but then you've got a billion other things to use HT energy on) and the ability to drop, basically for free.
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Dont forget that autorepair on bunkers/buildings etc that wall-off sacrifices SCV's = economy...
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On August 04 2010 07:17 Bibdy wrote:
I'll believe that Terran is immobile when their medic units can't transport them across chasms, or over cliffs and a single Medivac of stimmed troops can't kill a Nexus in under 8 seconds and then high-tail it out of there before reinforcements show up.
I mean, please. Before you had to make Dropships that had no purpose but for drops. Now you get easily protectable medics (army is too busy shooting your army to focus-fire medics in the sky - the only thing you really have to worry about is Feedback - but then you've got a billion other things to use HT energy on) and the ability to drop, basically for free.
Well, medivacs aren't the only dropships with additional functions
Overlords are early scouts, dropships, and supply. For the cost of 3 medivacs, a zergs gets many no-gas dropships that he built for supplies already.
And warp prisms are also mobile warp sites that gives a lot of harass potential.
And HTs either storm or feedback. A defensve HT can one shot a medivac full of units with quick reaction time.
Terrans are immobile when it comes to their powerhouse units such as tanks, thors, and battlecruiser.
Tanks have to siege/unsiege. Thors are less mobile than colo and ultra, and battlecruiser is very slow. (I know ultra is higher on the tech tree but I'm just using that for comparison b/c of the similar cost). In general compare this to the mutalisk, colossus, ultralisks.
Hellions, reaper, viking/banshee are mobile but they're support units not staple units. Bio is mobile but it's not as mobile as chargetlot and stalkers or speedlings. there's stim, but it's not until medivacs that stim can be used repeatedly. But I don't think anyone was arguing that terran bio is immobile in the first place. The problem though, is that a T can't just fight with bioball, it needs to use its firepower units as well, which significantly reduces the mobility of the whole army.
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Terran simply don't have an immobility disadvantage like they did in SC.
Reapers, Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings, Ravens and Banshees all scream mobile firepower, and 1-1-1 or some fast tech build can unlock all of them before midgame. It's as if they took the Terran from SC and gave them dragoons, cloakable guardians, flying goliaths and splash damage vultures. When you give one race the best defense, the best harass, the most cost-effective ground unit and the macro mechanic best suited for 1 or 2 base play, you're gonna have balance issues.
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On August 04 2010 08:51 SharkSpider wrote:
Terran simply don't have an immobility disadvantage like they did in SC.
Reapers, Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings, Ravens and Banshees all scream mobile firepower, and 1-1-1 or some fast tech build can unlock all of them before midgame. It's as if they took the Terran from SC and gave them dragoons, cloakable guardians, flying goliaths and splash damage vultures. When you give one race the best defense, the best harass, the most cost-effective ground unit and the macro mechanic best suited for 1 or 2 base play, you're gonna have balance issues.
We kind of need that stuff since one race can churn out units like crazy and the other can run over us with the right army. You could make a similar arguement for protoss or zerg..
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um... so back to the ops point... or so I think, I'm not actually sure what his point is anymore, terran is the only race with a defender's advantage. zerg and protoss both profit by being aggressive and taking map control. this makes sense to me. in bw, I was zerg, and if I didn't have map control at basically every point in the game, I lost. I was only D+, but still, if I had map control I had a good chance, and if I didn't have map control, I had no chance. so, here, zerg needs to be highly aggressive, and so do protoss. force terran to use it's defender's advantage, and then he can't do any sort of harass until later in the game. if you've done it right, you should have 2-3 bases to 1 base, and the terran needs to harass or they will get steamrolled by a ton of units pouring in.
and this is why koreans are better. they are just constantly attacking. and unless you can survive by getting only the bare minimum defense, ie, you happen to be idra, you need to take a more aggressive stance, have map control, and attack whenever their army is weak, and not rely on any kind of defenders advantage.
if zerg has map control they should have overlords and creep everywhere, allowing them to see the map, and know when attacks are coming.
if protoss has map control, they should have pylons everywhere and be able to warp in units to defend any drops.
if terran has map control... then the opponent doesn't have map control.
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On August 04 2010 08:51 SharkSpider wrote:
Terran simply don't have an immobility disadvantage like they did in SC.
Reapers, Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings, Ravens and Banshees all scream mobile firepower, and 1-1-1 or some fast tech build can unlock all of them before midgame. It's as if they took the Terran from SC and gave them dragoons, cloakable guardians, flying goliaths and splash damage vultures. When you give one race the best defense, the best harass, the most cost-effective ground unit and the macro mechanic best suited for 1 or 2 base play, you're gonna have balance issues.
BW terran had vultures, dropships, wraiths, and were still very immobile, its the exact same now with a mech army but you add hellions and reapers (cant call ravens very mobile). Every race has new units...
Terran qq is getting pretty old, multiple pro gamers already stated fixing the tanks overkill would solve pretty much everything, and as long as there is no new patch people continue calling other stuffs OP. In the other thread even supply depots were overpowered....
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On July 31 2010 10:47 Doormat wrote:
1. Protoss can also wall off. Have sentries to force field ramps and can warp in units to any powered area with warpgates.
2. No race can power drones like zerg. Therefore for balance they should have to put more effort into defending early pressure.
I'll speak to TvZ because I play Terran but I would assume this applies to Protoss as well:
The big tension is that the Zerg will get a macro advantage and then win because of the advantage producing out of a hatchery provides them. Therefore it is the Terran's responsibility to either win based on more efficient unit composition (which I haven't seen yet) or to put pressure on the Zerg early to prevent the macro advantage. So making it so the Zerg can't defend easily makes this tension balanced otherwise Zergs will just turtle up, get the macro advantage, and win.
This. Good solid post. :D
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Lol,
SharkSpider pretty much hit the nail on the head.
And you want a similar argument? Let's compare major race changes from SC:BW to SC2
Terran
-Vultures are gone, replaced with Hellions, no more spider mines, but they get a free speed upgrade and splash damage on their main attack, this can be upgraded for an additional 10 dmg vs light.
- Marines gain more HP and faster base firing rate
- Marauders are effectively Dragoons that can't shoot up, but can stim and their shots slow movement
- Medics are now rolled into dropships, cost per medic effectively doubled
- Siege tanks do 20 less damage to armored, but 15 more damage to light, they are also effective when non-sieged now
- Wraiths are gone, have been replaced with Guardians with stealth
- Goliaths are gone, have been replaced with Vikings, which come with a free missle range upgrade, but must transform to change what they are shooting at
- Firebats are gone, have been replaced with Reaper (lol)
- Valkyries are gone
- Thor added, very long range, high damage ground attack, mediocre air attack unless vs mutas (lol)
- Science Vessels are gone, replaced with Raven and a whole new set of abilities, most notably, no defensive matrix but now have a point defense drone.
- Ghosts lost Lockdown, but gained EMP and Snipe
Zerg
- Zerglings are smaller and can moved in a more tightly packed group(this has advantages as well as disadvantages), their attack speed has been slowed
- Hydralisk is now tier 2 and has gained +1 range, they do about 2x the dps and cost 25 min / 25 gas / 1 more supply more than brood war, no speed upgrade available, but they gain a larger creep speed boost than all other units save the queen
- New tier 1.5 unit is the Roach, costs the same as the hydra from BW except for 1 more supply, has 3 range, down from 5 and can't shoot air, can move while burrowed with research.
- Lurkers are gone, replaced with Baneling (lol).
- Mutalisks have actually stayed largely the same as BW, this is a disadvantage in every way as all other air units are stronger in comparison
- Overlords no longer can detect stealth, but can be converted into an overseer which has detection and several scouting-oriented abilities
- Queens from BW are gone, no replacement
- Queens in SC2 are a new unit with many macro oriented abilities. They fight like a Roach that can shoot air like a Hydralisk, moves so slow off creep it is inneffective to use this unit without creep in the immediate area.
- Scourge are gone, no replacement.
- Devourers are gone, replaced with Corruptors, these do better damage by themselves, without the stacking bonus, and therefore are not meant to stack with mutalisks in the same fashion that devourers did. They can cast corruption on any target, increasing damage received by 20%
- Guardians are gone, replaced with Broodlords, these do less dps, but spawn 2 broodlings per attack, if broodlings are taken into consideration, dps is comparable
- Defilers are gone, replaced with Infestors, which have a whole new range of abilities, most notable, no Dark Swarm, but now have a 12 second mind control.
- Ultralisks are significantly larger and now deal splash damage.
Protoss
- All gateway units can warp in at any pylon once warpgates are researched
- Zealots can now charge when their speed upgrade is researched
- Dragoons are gone, replaced with Stalkers which do slightly less damage but can blink
- Sentry added, a T1 caster with many support abilities, most notably Force Field
- Reaver gone, replaced with Colossus which can ignore cliffs and grants vision as an air unit, also attackable as an air unit.
- Immortal added, these take a maximum of 10 damage per hit until shields are gone and do massive damage to armored targets
- High Templar lost illusion, but gained feedback
- Dark Templar now require an extra building which serves no purpose than to allow for the creation of Dark Templar
- Corsairs are gone, replaced with Phoenix which only damages a single target and cannot cast disruption web, but can cast graviton beam and is cost effective vs virtually all other air units
- Scouts are gone, replaced with Void Rays which have a gimmicky charging beam that deals weak damage initially, but good (huge vs armored) damage if allowed to charge.
- Arbiter gone, replaced with Mothership, you can only have one.
- Carriers no longer require research to have 8 interceptors, but research now allows for significantly faster interceptor deployment.
I know I missed tons of stuff, I avoided all building comparisons as much as possible and tried to keep it light. And of course, its a new game so comparisons don't really matter, but there they are.
Comparing the 3 races, Terran is mostly good changes, Zerg is mostly meh, and Protoss is pretty much good changes with a little meh, funny how that's where the complaints line up, no?
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There is no point in comparing. T is innately strong when it comes to defend. They got the only building armor upgrade (except Protoss Shield Upgrade) and upgrades for defensive structures i.e. Building Armor Plating Upgrade, Neosteel Frame and Hi-sec Auto Tracking. As a result, their offensive capability is limited by a small movement speed of their high-tier units. T also has the best wall-in option with flying buildings and depots that can sink into the ground.
By comparison, Z is weaker in early game base defense, featuring only creep( which may not important, depending on the enemy raiding units), queens (which may not come out fast enough) and possibly bigger drone count and fast zerglings. Z's weakness also comes with the inability to wall-in early game since creep usually does not extend that far. However, Z has the earliest anti-wall-in unit - BANELINGS, which is super effective against wall-in T.
Hence, it is inappropriate to see T's defensive advantage as imba or something. Remember, SC series' success is not from having 3 races mirroring one another, but 3 races that have their distinct strength and weakness. SC is not like other games like C&C series or Warcraft 2 (not 3) that has factions (nearly) mirroring one another.
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Eh I find zerg in SC2 very lacking, not balance wise but there is just that niggling feeling that something is missing in their gameplay. It's just very wierd playing as Z in SC2. I'm a fairly bad zerg because my BW main is terran, but as terran I have lots of experience against good zergs.
There is this tension that zerg places on you to move out and a shit your pants moment when you realise that it is essential to push out before they get too many sunks down or lurker tech is up. Muta harass just wasn't what it was. And important things seem to have jumped up the tech tier. Overall I'm completely lost when T comes knocking on your door at tier 2 with bio-thors. I'm probably terrible, but whatever. In BW I knew enough to plop down sunks, get a spire + lurker tech up later, 11 mutas and save the day.
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I believe most of us do not want terran nerfed (overly) but people would like to see zerg buffed to be somewhat easier to defend with early game. xD
Its funny that they stated that lurker was removed because More does not equal better yet terran has both siege, thor and marauder as anti armored.. Would lurker morph from roach deter marine marauder or reapers or early pushes.
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so many ppl talking out of their asses. Banelings being cost effective in killing walls? Rofl. No. Just no. theres a reason why its called an allin. it wrecks ur economy and is definately not cheap.
Anyways i stopped playing zerg. It is a incomplete race. It desperately needs a siege unit, or a siege breaker unit that isnt tier 4. Roaches used to fill this role cos of how imba they were but now you cant break a wallin without half the map and 6 supply units. Like wtf i need hive tech to get an antiarmoured unit thats fucking melee? Collossus have range 9, tanks have stupid far range, immortals have shields and marauders are walking bunkers with stim. now theres a cost effective unit for breaking walls. Too bad its terran.
Need lurker.
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i enjoy the highly diversity of the three races... and the OP basically just described it between Terran and Zerg. Zerg armies are meant to be expendable, strength in numbers, fast, and able to expand quicker... while on the other hand the terran is more of a lock down race, slow to expand but able to do so defensively and strongly. if you take away terrans ability to lock down their base... you may as well just take just take away the diversity of the whole game. that's how they are meant to be, the three races are so diverse in SC and SC2 and it's something i really feel that they did a great job doing.
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On August 01 2010 01:54 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +He has a point though, Terrans can also rant about how strong Zerg is as well. except that its precieved as either trolling or player fault. Terrans have nothing to whine about. Terran vs X games are all in the hands of the terran to loose and not the other way and anyone arguing otherwise are just that. Bad players. Yea, there is something called mule and calldown supply that limits and boosts your mineral harvesting or spending capability. they also allow you to cut scvs and still remain economically sound.
that is definitely not true. as has been shown in many replays and by many casters (makh), mules keep a terran player even in economy, they do not push him ahead
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Cost of 3 siege tanks: 450/375
Cost of +1 attack upgrade: 100/100
Ability to kill 1200 minerals worth of zealots in 1 shot: Priceless
A lot of issues I think would be resolved with ZvT or PvT if the minimum range was increased - currently you can have a ball of 5 siege tanks clustered together and even if you close the gap on one siege tank, the other 4 can still hit your units with minimal friendly fire damage - essentially eliminating the minimum range balance factor.
I would say increase the minimum range to 3 or maybe 4, just enough that if you're on top of a ball of siege tanks, they're helpless alone.
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On August 04 2010 17:40 Lancette wrote:
There is no point in comparing. T is innately strong when it comes to defend. They got the only building armor upgrade (except Protoss Shield Upgrade) and upgrades for defensive structures i.e. Building Armor Plating Upgrade, Neosteel Frame and Hi-sec Auto Tracking. As a result, their offensive capability is limited by a small movement speed of their high-tier units. T also has the best wall-in option with flying buildings and depots that can sink into the ground.
By comparison, Z is weaker in early game base defense, featuring only creep( which may not important, depending on the enemy raiding units), queens (which may not come out fast enough) and possibly bigger drone count and fast zerglings. Z's weakness also comes with the inability to wall-in early game since creep usually does not extend that far. However, Z has the earliest anti-wall-in unit - BANELINGS, which is super effective against wall-in T.
Hence, it is inappropriate to see T's defensive advantage as imba or something. Remember, SC series' success is not from having 3 races mirroring one another, but 3 races that have their distinct strength and weakness. SC is not like other games like C&C series or Warcraft 2 (not 3) that has factions (nearly) mirroring one another.
The problem is Terran are now incredibly mobile compared to their previous incarnation and have a ton of strong harassment possibilities. Having double the bases of a Terran in BW and still losing was entirely possible.
In SC2, you basically can't expand unless the Terran LETS you. PvT is a literal nightmare if you want to plan for the mid-game. Finding the right moment to expand is painful. I want to suckerpunch every damn Terran that says you just have to expand when you see 1/1/1. That build alone can construct absolutely deadly timing pushes. Fact is, you cannot safely expand until you know exactly what the Terran is doing, and that takes time to get a Hallucination, Void Ray or Observer out there. If he's making a Command Center, great! Expand! Until then, don't even consider it. If you expand without that knowledge, 90% of the time some puny little MM blob will wipe the floor with you.
So, they have this massive defensive advantage, while at the same time, are incredibly mobile, capable of very strong harass and you can't do better than keep an equal number of expansions with them at best. If you want to expand earlier, you take a HUUUUUUUGE gamble.
The one and only disadvantage I see Terrans have now is reinforcements. You lose your army? You probably lose the game, because you can't build reinforcements as quickly as Zerg or Protoss can. But then, those reinforcements are still very strong. Even a single Siege Tank will probably hold off whatever he's got left after the big battle. And when you're talking about a really high level where both players are always at a very low stockpile of cash, the quick reinforcements advantage gets diluted (can't pump 10 Zealots simultaneously when you've only got 100 minerals in the bank).
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On August 04 2010 05:24 Doormat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2010 04:38 MforWW wrote:On July 31 2010 10:47 Doormat wrote:
1. Protoss can also wall off. Have sentries to force field ramps and can warp in units to any powered area with warpgates.
2. No race can power drones like zerg. Therefore for balance they should have to put more effort into defending early pressure.
I'll speak to TvZ because I play Terran but I would assume this applies to Protoss as well:
The big tension is that the Zerg will get a macro advantage and then win because of the advantage producing out of a hatchery provides them. Therefore it is the Terran's responsibility to either win based on more efficient unit composition (which I haven't seen yet) or to put pressure on the Zerg early to prevent the macro advantage. So making it so the Zerg can't defend easily makes this tension balanced otherwise Zergs will just turtle up, get the macro advantage, and win. No race can power drones like zerg? lmao that's such BS. Go ahead and watch some replays of good players. The gatherer count for each side is usually even if the players are evenly matched. This is because zerg actually has to use their larva to make units as well, and every time they make a building, the drone is permanently lost. do you know how expensive a spine crawler actually is in terms of total economic cost? the face value (100 min.) plus the drone (50 min.) 1 larva (hard to place a number on, but trust me, larva are valuable) and the total minerals not collected during the time it takes to hatch the replacement drone. (the cost of the replacement drone is not counted, because that would be double-counting... fyi for all the not economically inclined out there). that considered, i'd say the true cost is at least 200 min. and one can't even take down 2 marauders. hence, spine crawlers generally aren't worth it unless combined with units that'll tank for it or if you're using them to hold off hellions while you tech (thus saving money by not needing to invest in extra queens/roaches). compared to Terran's wall + repair and bunkers, spine crawlers are a joke. /but just b/c defense isn't balanced doesn't mean the meta game isn't balanced. //to continue on my tangent, there were so many skills in brood war that were straight up imbalanced... but because all races had imbalances it was fair. for example, psi storm was ridiculously OP... but so was plague. Blizzard decided to make all the units in SC2 even by nerfing them to death until they all suck equally. You have quite clearly missed the point. Given no pressure, Zerg can power drones unlike any other race. Thats why the mechanic for defense has to include a reasonable amount of larva and/or minerals or else there is an unbalance. You can argue this should be tweaked but to argue it is a flaw is wrong in my opinion.
Yea but the fact is that Zerg "Defense" at the moment is too weak even really early on. Two marauders can easily take down a Spine Crawler, and how hard is it to make Two marauders? But making Marauders is not the point.
Yes the Zerg can power drones if left unchecked, but who's going to leave them unchecked? Any other race CAN power workers too (Chrono Boost; Don't act like the Mule doesn't exist) and yet put up a very strong defense compared to the Zerg ( Force Field, Walling Off, Repair, Siege Tanks, Immortals.)
I'm not crying for changes to Terran or Protoss but Zerg.
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EPT
