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On July 31 2010 10:00 kNyTTyM wrote:
I feel Terran has an inherent advantage over the two races in this aspect.
........So in summary zerg went economical and terran went for a harass opening. The amount of damage terran does is almost solely dependent on how aggressive he wants to be.
Terran is supposed to have an inherent defensive advantage, have you ever seen what 12 lings do to marines not behind a bunker?
For the second issue, if you go for a fast expand, and the terran player punishes you with a timed harrass, that is what is supposed to happen, if there was no way to punish the fast expand, zerg would win every conflict.
If you are having trouble with a terran player, build a sizeable force to keep him contained with your force in the middle of the map and lings near his base waiting to backstab if he leaves, take enough expansions to out produce him, and then either wait for him to move out or force a way into his back door with a nydus worm or an overlord drop, you can also harrass them with mutas.
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On August 04 2010 17:40 Lancette wrote:
There is no point in comparing. T is innately strong when it comes to defend. They got the only building armor upgrade (except Protoss Shield Upgrade) and upgrades for defensive structures i.e. Building Armor Plating Upgrade, Neosteel Frame and Hi-sec Auto Tracking. As a result, their offensive capability is limited by a small movement speed of their high-tier units. T also has the best wall-in option with flying buildings and depots that can sink into the ground.
By comparison, Z is weaker in early game base defense, featuring only creep( which may not important, depending on the enemy raiding units), queens (which may not come out fast enough) and possibly bigger drone count and fast zerglings. Z's weakness also comes with the inability to wall-in early game since creep usually does not extend that far. However, Z has the earliest anti-wall-in unit - BANELINGS, which is super effective against wall-in T.
Hence, it is inappropriate to see T's defensive advantage as imba or something. Remember, SC series' success is not from having 3 races mirroring one another, but 3 races that have their distinct strength and weakness. SC is not like other games like C&C series or Warcraft 2 (not 3) that has factions (nearly) mirroring one another.
Basically Zerg got no way of harassing before lair tech + spire or OL speed + drop research. Consider that Zerg must expand to keep up aswell, the tech to harass gets out too late to really affect the game.
Make the lair research time a bit lower and lower research cost on alot of zerg stuff like OL speed and OL drop. Roaches should move after burrorw is researched. Maybe move OL speed so that it can be researched earlier
If this makes Zerg too good, then nerf the units, but keep the options!
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On August 05 2010 04:28 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 10:00 kNyTTyM wrote:
I feel Terran has an inherent advantage over the two races in this aspect.
........So in summary zerg went economical and terran went for a harass opening. The amount of damage terran does is almost solely dependent on how aggressive he wants to be.
Terran is supposed to have an inherent defensive advantage, have you ever seen what 12 lings do to marines not behind a bunker? For the second issue, if you go for a fast expand, and the terran player punishes you with a timed harrass, that is what is supposed to happen, if there was no way to punish the fast expand, zerg would win every conflict. If you are having trouble with a terran player, build a sizeable force to keep him contained with your force in the middle of the map and lings near his base waiting to backstab if he leaves, take enough expansions to out produce him, and then either wait for him to move out or force a way into his back door with a nydus worm or an overlord drop, you can also harrass them with mutas.
But why do Terran have the aggressive advantage aswell? Early hellion harass gives map control and does very good economy damage. You CANT contain a Terran player effectively, except if he forgot to build towers/marines/thor after waiting a couple minutes on a lair+spire+mutas to pop.
ZvP is a complete different story. Z can have map control and attack when P army leaves because P cant block the ramp and doesnt roast your units for lunch.
A T ramp is completely blocked, making it nearly impossible to punish T with speedlings/etc. 1 damn tank and a few scvs and it is nearly impossible to break in without committing the whole army.
Why do people keep mentioning Nydus worm/network? Do you believe most Zerg players stopped using it because it is so damn good? Or that the Zerg players are just so stupid?
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ok ive read enough to know this is just about angry zergs who macro too many drones in the beginning and have them get fried because they cant position an ovie around the Ts base and see them roll on out down the ramp. speedlings will get out FIRST before critical mass of hellions (2-3) if u go one gas and tech it when u get 100 gas...hellions cant kite speedlings, wtf are any of u talking about. that said, thats that. when u get lair u have mutas + creep which makes the zerg army extremely mobile against the overwhelmingly favored mech army..Ts army takes 5345345435 to go anywhere, even if its bio..if u have ovies around the map (like u should) u can negate the drops aspect of the mobility with a few mutas..i know im not loading up 10k worth of minerals in 2 medvacs only to have them raped by a few mutas on the way..zerg have this inherent advantage many of u forgot called free scouts, and use them like big brother. yes, terran can repair and wall off..however in doing so, the terran limits himself to one base and requires one large strong push that zerg have ample time to prepare for since they should be on 3 bases when it comes rolling out..all of this is common sense. terrans already got nerfed for TvZ, and now even in day 9s last tourney, no terran in top slots made it. zerg race in sc2 have ridiculous potential..most are just too bad to utilize it. so i suggest u get off TL and go practice.
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On August 05 2010 05:41 CrY. wrote:
ok ive read enough to know this is just about angry zergs who macro too many drones in the beginning and have them get fried because they cant position an ovie around the Ts base and see them roll on out down the ramp. speedlings will get out FIRST before critical mass of hellions (2-3) if u go one gas and tech it when u get 100 gas...hellions cant kite speedlings, wtf are any of u talking about. that said, thats that. when u get lair u have mutas + creep which makes the zerg army extremely mobile against the overwhelmingly favored mech army..Ts army takes 5345345435 to go anywhere, even if its bio..if u have ovies around the map (like u should) u can negate the drops aspect of the mobility with a few mutas..i know im not loading up 10k worth of minerals in 2 medvacs only to have them raped by a few mutas on the way..zerg have this inherent advantage many of u forgot called free scouts, and use them like big brother. yes, terran can repair and wall off..however in doing so, the terran limits himself to one base and requires one large strong push that zerg have ample time to prepare for since they should be on 3 bases when it comes rolling out..all of this is common sense. terrans already got nerfed for TvZ, and now even in day 9s last tourney, no terran in top slots made it. zerg race in sc2 have ridiculous potential..most are just too bad to utilize it. so i suggest u get off TL and go practice.
This reads like you're playing against many AI zergs. All the things you suggest have a huge cost.
Ts army takes 5345345435 to go anywhere, even if its bio..if u have ovies around the map (like u should) u can negate the drops aspect of the mobility with a few mutas..
T's Bio army is plenty more mobile than any Z army. If I have ovies around the map I lose them when you get your first viking - which is why I *shouldn't*. 'A few mutas' is like 600 gas that the T can negate for a few hundred minerals and no gas. It's not surprising why Z hates to go muta against T - it's an enormous investment that doesn't force the T to change his gameplan.
zerg have this inherent advantage many of u forgot called free scouts, and use them like big brother.
Really? I must have missed that unit, all I have is the 100 mineral unit that takes a larvae and a 100/100 upgrade.
yes, terran can repair and wall off..however in doing so, the terran limits himself to one base and requires one large strong push that zerg have ample time to prepare for since they should be on 3 bases when it comes rolling out
Unless T decided to do any harassment (which he can without committing any significant resources), or it's on a map that lets him take his second and just move his wall (blistering sands, LT, etc).
..all of this is common sense. terrans already got nerfed for TvZ
Hold on, I've been playing since beta began...
Marines got a build time decrease, stim made cheaper, weapon/armor upgrades build time decrease
Marauders got a tech lab cost decrease, stim made cheaper, conc shells made to upgrade then made cheaper
Tanks got a huge buff with a change in the nature of splash, then a meaningless damage nerf (only changed how many hits it takes to kill ultras)
Thor got a big buff with AOE AA
Missile turrets got a damage buff
Hellions got preigniter buff
Vikings cost decrease
Raven HSM research buff
Banshee cloak research buff
BC build time buff
Ghost's EMP radius nerfed (only unit to not get buffed o/t medivac)
And Zerg?
Roach armor, supply, regen, upgrade nerf
Hydra HP, DPS nerf
Baneling damage buff (15+20 -> 20+15, whee)
Infestor NP nerf, nerf, buff, buff revert and nerf, FS buff,
Creep tumor nerf =\
Broodlord HP nerf
Corruptor corruption nerf
Ultralisk hp nerf, dmg nerf, splash dmg nerf, dmg vs armored buff, hp buff, speed buff. Overall probably a buff.
Queen speed nerf
That everything I think? T also had a few building costs nerfed (ghost academy, factory)..
so how did the TvZ get worse?
zerg race in sc2 have ridiculous potential..most are just too bad to utilize it. so i suggest u get off TL and go practice
Ah, yeah, you're right. ALL zerg players are bad and all T/P players are just plain better. That must be it, it couldn't possibly be a trend indicative of the game state.
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On July 31 2010 10:00 kNyTTyM wrote:
\These four important aspects are repair, salvageable bunkers, walls and mass ranged units.
Transfusion? Zerg and Toss can't wall? And you mean mass ranged unit.
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On August 05 2010 06:53 Competent wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 10:00 kNyTTyM wrote:
\These four important aspects are repair, salvageable bunkers, walls and mass ranged units. Transfusion? Zerg and Toss can't wall? And you mean mass ranged unit.
Lolwut?
Every terran unit is ranged.
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On August 04 2010 17:21 Jermstuddog wrote:
Protoss
- All gateway units can warp in at any pylon once warpgates are researched
- Zealots can now charge when their speed upgrade is researched
- Dragoons are gone, replaced with Stalkers which do slightly less damage but can blink
- Sentry added, a T1 caster with many support abilities, most notably Force Field
- Reaver gone, replaced with Colossus which can ignore cliffs and grants vision as an air unit, also attackable as an air unit.
- Immortal added, these take a maximum of 10 damage per hit until shields are gone and do massive damage to armored targets
- High Templar lost illusion, but gained feedback
- Dark Templar now require an extra building which serves no purpose than to allow for the creation of Dark Templar
- Corsairs are gone, replaced with Phoenix which only damages a single target and cannot cast disruption web, but can cast graviton beam and is cost effective vs virtually all other air units
- Scouts are gone, replaced with Void Rays which have a gimmicky charging beam that deals weak damage initially, but good (huge vs armored) damage if allowed to charge.
- Arbiter gone, replaced with Mothership, you can only have one.
- Carriers no longer require research to have 8 interceptors, but research now allows for significantly faster interceptor deployment.
A few of the things you missed:
-Stalkers lost 20 HP on the Dragoons. Also, 6 less damage to armored targets (large units) is pretty substantial. They also move faster than Dragoons, but all things considered, I'd rather have the 20 more HP and 6 more damage than the move speed and blink.
-Zealot charge upgrade increases base Zealot move speed by noticeably less than the BW upgrade.
-Colossus requires a 200/200 upgrade to generally be useful against Zerg and Terran, because otherwise it has the same range as the units it's meant to counter and gets focus fired easily.
-Phoenix will lose to both Corruptors and Vikings with the same gas cost invested (yes, they beat a viking 1:1, but Vikings cost 3/4 the gas, let's not even get into the marines that can support the Viking's superior range)
-Carrier lost 2 armor. Interceptor damage went up, but is spread over two hits. This is both a pro and a con, depending on the target's armor.
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On August 05 2010 08:05 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:21 Jermstuddog wrote:
Protoss
- All gateway units can warp in at any pylon once warpgates are researched
- Zealots can now charge when their speed upgrade is researched
- Dragoons are gone, replaced with Stalkers which do slightly less damage but can blink
- Sentry added, a T1 caster with many support abilities, most notably Force Field
- Reaver gone, replaced with Colossus which can ignore cliffs and grants vision as an air unit, also attackable as an air unit.
- Immortal added, these take a maximum of 10 damage per hit until shields are gone and do massive damage to armored targets
- High Templar lost illusion, but gained feedback
- Dark Templar now require an extra building which serves no purpose than to allow for the creation of Dark Templar
- Corsairs are gone, replaced with Phoenix which only damages a single target and cannot cast disruption web, but can cast graviton beam and is cost effective vs virtually all other air units
- Scouts are gone, replaced with Void Rays which have a gimmicky charging beam that deals weak damage initially, but good (huge vs armored) damage if allowed to charge.
- Arbiter gone, replaced with Mothership, you can only have one.
- Carriers no longer require research to have 8 interceptors, but research now allows for significantly faster interceptor deployment.
A few of the things you missed: -Stalkers lost 20 HP on the Dragoons. Also, 6 less damage to armored targets (large units) is pretty substantial. They also move faster than Dragoons, but all things considered, I'd rather have the 20 more HP and 6 more damage than the move speed and blink. -Zealot charge upgrade increases base Zealot move speed by noticeably less than the BW upgrade. -Colossus requires a 200/200 upgrade to generally be useful against Zerg and Terran, because otherwise it has the same range as the units it's meant to counter and gets focus fired easily. -Phoenix will lose to both Corruptors and Vikings with the same gas cost invested (yes, they beat a viking 1:1, but Vikings cost 3/4 the gas, let's not even get into the marines that can support the Viking's superior range) -Carrier lost 2 armor. Interceptor damage went up, but is spread over two hits. This is both a pro and a con, depending on the target's armor.
All valid points and still supports the +1/-1 feel of protoss when comparing the two games. If my list really mattered, I would totally update it 
I also never mentioned archons and their complete lack of awesome in SC2.
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So, Bio is NEVER more mobile than Zerg. Doesn't matter if they use stim. Perhaps if they loaded all their units into medivacs, but that's just asking to be shot down. Super risky. Regardless, Bio is super super weak and easy for zerg to kill. Muta baneling zergling anyone? Hell, Roach Hydra isn't bad against bio. Doesn't really matter. And has nothing to do with a defender's advantage. Like all this talk of harass could easily be negated by good maps.
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On August 05 2010 17:28 MythicalMage wrote:
So, Bio is NEVER more mobile than Zerg. Doesn't matter if they use stim. Perhaps if they loaded all their units into medivacs, but that's just asking to be shot down. Super risky. Regardless, Bio is super super weak and easy for zerg to kill. Muta baneling zergling anyone? Hell, Roach Hydra isn't bad against bio. Doesn't really matter. And has nothing to do with a defender's advantage. Like all this talk of harass could easily be negated by good maps.
Good points, made here (just a couple minor disagreements). Bio as a whole is less mobile than zerg and to have comparable speed you need to sacrifice health/resources through stim, at which point, they're quite similar. However, they are not as limited in the fact that it can be used anywhere. The cost is probably greater overall however until you get a decent number of medivacs, but it is more flexible IMO. With zerg, you get similar results with spread creep, but that usually takes a while. That's why professionals and day[9] (among other good commentators) agree that "creep spreading is the hallmark of a good zerg player." Medivacs are risky, but the rewards are so worth it if the zerg doesn't place ovies around their base. Earlier someone argued that ovies get shot down too easily by vikings. Very true, but then again at that point, overlords should mostly just be placed in strategic places, used for quick sacrificial scouting, or just around your base. Bio can be extremely fragile early game, but once you hit that critical mass, things drop like flies. At that point, zerg has to get up banelings to counter it. Zerglings aren't quite as effective due to improved AI (balling vs. lining up) and tanking units just don't come as easily. Mutas don't have the same feel and aren't as easily microable compared to their predecessors. Ultimately, I would say that T is a bit stronger than I'd like, but not enough to warrant mass IMBA/QQ threads. Let the map pool build and chances our we'll shift towards more macro oriented play → zergs having an easier time. Right now, the difference between surviving and raping is very thin. I haven't seen many games where the zerg won by a hair; whenever they win, usually they managed to get an economic advantage and ride that too the end. Getting to that point is like walking the gauntlet, especially on maps like metalopolis, but what it all boils down to is we need a better map pool.
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Bring back the Lurker!
Don't know if it will actually help with breaking terran turtles, but I felt it needed to be said regardless.
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On August 05 2010 17:20 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:05 Kyadytim wrote:On August 04 2010 17:21 Jermstuddog wrote:
Protoss
- All gateway units can warp in at any pylon once warpgates are researched
- Zealots can now charge when their speed upgrade is researched
- Dragoons are gone, replaced with Stalkers which do slightly less damage but can blink
- Sentry added, a T1 caster with many support abilities, most notably Force Field
- Reaver gone, replaced with Colossus which can ignore cliffs and grants vision as an air unit, also attackable as an air unit.
- Immortal added, these take a maximum of 10 damage per hit until shields are gone and do massive damage to armored targets
- High Templar lost illusion, but gained feedback
- Dark Templar now require an extra building which serves no purpose than to allow for the creation of Dark Templar
- Corsairs are gone, replaced with Phoenix which only damages a single target and cannot cast disruption web, but can cast graviton beam and is cost effective vs virtually all other air units
- Scouts are gone, replaced with Void Rays which have a gimmicky charging beam that deals weak damage initially, but good (huge vs armored) damage if allowed to charge.
- Arbiter gone, replaced with Mothership, you can only have one.
- Carriers no longer require research to have 8 interceptors, but research now allows for significantly faster interceptor deployment.
A few of the things you missed: -Stalkers lost 20 HP on the Dragoons. Also, 6 less damage to armored targets (large units) is pretty substantial. They also move faster than Dragoons, but all things considered, I'd rather have the 20 more HP and 6 more damage than the move speed and blink. -Zealot charge upgrade increases base Zealot move speed by noticeably less than the BW upgrade. -Colossus requires a 200/200 upgrade to generally be useful against Zerg and Terran, because otherwise it has the same range as the units it's meant to counter and gets focus fired easily. -Phoenix will lose to both Corruptors and Vikings with the same gas cost invested (yes, they beat a viking 1:1, but Vikings cost 3/4 the gas, let's not even get into the marines that can support the Viking's superior range) -Carrier lost 2 armor. Interceptor damage went up, but is spread over two hits. This is both a pro and a con, depending on the target's armor. All valid points and still supports the +1/-1 feel of protoss when comparing the two games. If my list really mattered, I would totally update it I also never mentioned archons and their complete lack of awesome in SC2.
Hey! Archons are useful! ... wait EMP ... shit.
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On August 06 2010 13:28 MrBarryObama wrote:
Bring back the Lurker!
This. Give Zerg a way to defend so they can get offensive much easier. The current Zerg is simply dumb, and with the passing of time, T and P players will just learn how to abuse zerg's early weaknesses even more.
Keep in mind that at the start of the Beta, 14 pool 15 hatch was considered a safe build, but as of late it is considered more and more risky to fast expand...
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ehh, dont really get why this is debatable, isnt always the case even since sc1 that terran defense>all others... i mean unless people think that the 200/200 power of terran is now not the most powerful, i think the games balance regarding terran defense is in check. usually my games end b4 reaching the maxed population, but has anyone here come across a scenario when a terran maxed army fails to win? i think the whole mu of tvz revolves around reaching a maxed army while winning battles of cost efficiency and using that advantage to push into the main of the zerg base regardless of how fast they can rebuild , because when left alone its suicide to let a zerg drone up where u will clearly lose
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On July 31 2010 12:36 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 12:01 MythicalMage wrote:
Sure it's a different game, but defending as terran is the same, and it's similar for zerg. Spine crawlers are still pretty good AND you have the queen now AND you can produce more zerglings at a time thanks to that queen. I have thought of this for quite some time, and you are focusing on the wrong issue, as is the OP. This isn't a "defenders advantage" problem. The offending unit here is the hellion, and it is only noticable in TvZ due to the lack of zerg defense, but lack of defense from zerg is fine for every other unit out there. Compare the hellion to the vulture. What is the most notable difference between your first hellion and your first vulture? Is it the AoE line damage? No, while this is a very nice feature of the hellion, it is hardly noticable when the zerg player has a whole 6 zerglings out. Is it the lack of spider mines? No, spider mines could never be researched, you gotta get the speed upgrade first... oh wait... speed upgrade... Hellions come out as fast as speed lings, and you get them faster than zerg can feasibly get speed for his lings...
Think what a 50/50 50 sec speed upgrade from the tech lab would do to early game hellion harass in TvZ. You either have to pick between 2 mildly quick units or 1 super quick OP early harasser... Hellion harass in its current state is essentially free damage to the Zerg players economy. Yes it takes good micro, yes you have to practice it, no I can't do anything nearly as effective as walling off in comparison, and that sucks... Nerf free hellion speed, problem solved. Compare this to BW vulture harass for 2 seconds and you can easily see how much the free speed breaks everything in this MU. As far as I'm concerned, all the mech complaints would cease to be reasonable if I didn't have to spend 1k minerals defending against 400 min worth of hellions just to get crushed by marauders/thor 4 min later.
It seems that lately zergs have been getting gas before spawning pool to research zergling speed the second the spawning pool finishes.. Just saying it's not IMPOSSIBLE and seems to be common for super fast ling speed.
(At least the zergs I have played)
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On August 08 2010 08:26 Eben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 12:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 31 2010 12:01 MythicalMage wrote:
Sure it's a different game, but defending as terran is the same, and it's similar for zerg. Spine crawlers are still pretty good AND you have the queen now AND you can produce more zerglings at a time thanks to that queen. I have thought of this for quite some time, and you are focusing on the wrong issue, as is the OP. This isn't a "defenders advantage" problem. The offending unit here is the hellion, and it is only noticable in TvZ due to the lack of zerg defense, but lack of defense from zerg is fine for every other unit out there. Compare the hellion to the vulture. What is the most notable difference between your first hellion and your first vulture? Is it the AoE line damage? No, while this is a very nice feature of the hellion, it is hardly noticable when the zerg player has a whole 6 zerglings out. Is it the lack of spider mines? No, spider mines could never be researched, you gotta get the speed upgrade first... oh wait... speed upgrade... Hellions come out as fast as speed lings, and you get them faster than zerg can feasibly get speed for his lings...
Think what a 50/50 50 sec speed upgrade from the tech lab would do to early game hellion harass in TvZ. You either have to pick between 2 mildly quick units or 1 super quick OP early harasser... Hellion harass in its current state is essentially free damage to the Zerg players economy. Yes it takes good micro, yes you have to practice it, no I can't do anything nearly as effective as walling off in comparison, and that sucks... Nerf free hellion speed, problem solved. Compare this to BW vulture harass for 2 seconds and you can easily see how much the free speed breaks everything in this MU. As far as I'm concerned, all the mech complaints would cease to be reasonable if I didn't have to spend 1k minerals defending against 400 min worth of hellions just to get crushed by marauders/thor 4 min later. It seems that lately zergs have been getting gas before spawning pool to research zergling speed the second the spawning pool finishes.. Just saying it's not IMPOSSIBLE and seems to be common for super fast ling speed. (At least the zergs I have played)
If the terran player gets gas before barracks, which is also quite common, he can get his factory immediately and pop out 2 hellions ~15 seconds before speed is finished for zerglings.
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EPT
