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On July 31 2010 18:38 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 18:30 MythicalMage wrote:On July 31 2010 18:28 rauk wrote:On July 31 2010 16:43 MythicalMage wrote:
Give me ONE pro game where the reaper gets anywhere near a queen on creep. Reapers avoid queens on creep like the plague.
ensnare vs gerrard and check in ogs vs prime takes on and kills queens with his speed reapers in the early game.  Damnit all, mentioning a korean game. But that's speed reapers in a completely different style. That's more similar to LzGamer's style these days with continuous reaper production to secure an expo, if it's anything like what I'm thinking of. Anyhow, that comes a bit later and you have speed and you have a lot of reapers. So, the zerg would have speed and a queen, but yeah that can be rather effective. At that point, it almost stops being harass, and becomes early pressure. yeah but the point is speed reapers for 1 rax CC can't be held off by queens or speedlings alone.
Sure, and in that case you could make roaches. If you needed to. Hell you could do some tricky baneling play or something. You could fast tech to mutas or whatever. I'm not convinced you couldn't at least push it back with well controlled speedling, but it's tricky. So yes, in that situation roaches would be necessitated.
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I personally have accepted a baneling nest as a necessary evil in ZvZ, even if you're not planning on going banelings hard, they're just THAT useful. I get the nest either immediately before or after ling speed, depending on how things flow. You CANNOT skip banelings alltogether in a safe manner, I will give you that.
As far as the roaches, zerglings are a perfectly fine counter to them until you hit critical mass levels, and you can tech to lair before your opponent can make that amount of roaches if you so desire. I also happen to like them in this MU as well, were you planning on going mutaling?
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On July 31 2010 18:25 MythicalMage wrote:
When did I say anything about beating mech? I just think that you'll kill it if you nerf hellions. That's literally all I've said about mech.
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On July 31 2010 12:36 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 12:01 MythicalMage wrote:
Sure it's a different game, but defending as terran is the same, and it's similar for zerg. Spine crawlers are still pretty good AND you have the queen now AND you can produce more zerglings at a time thanks to that queen. I have thought of this for quite some time, and you are focusing on the wrong issue, as is the OP. This isn't a "defenders advantage" problem. The offending unit here is the hellion, and it is only noticable in TvZ due to the lack of zerg defense, but lack of defense from zerg is fine for every other unit out there. Compare the hellion to the vulture. What is the most notable difference between your first hellion and your first vulture? Is it the AoE line damage? No, while this is a very nice feature of the hellion, it is hardly noticable when the zerg player has a whole 6 zerglings out. Is it the lack of spider mines? No, spider mines could never be researched, you gotta get the speed upgrade first... oh wait... speed upgrade... Hellions come out as fast as speed lings, and you get them faster than zerg can feasibly get speed for his lings... Think what a 50/50 50 sec speed upgrade from the tech lab would do to early game hellion harass in TvZ. You either have to pick between 2 mildly quick units or 1 super quick OP early harasser... Hellion harass in its current state is essentially free damage to the Zerg players economy. Yes it takes good micro, yes you have to practice it, no I can't do anything nearly as effective as walling off in comparison, and that sucks... Nerf free hellion speed, problem solved. Compare this to BW vulture harass for 2 seconds and you can easily see how much the free speed breaks everything in this MU. As far as I'm concerned, all the mech complaints would cease to be reasonable if I didn't have to spend 1k minerals defending against 400 min worth of hellions just to get crushed by marauders/thor 4 min later.
this kid is right
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Have you read the rest of the thread?
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Once again the problem seems to boil down to Terran being seemingly OP. People make great arguments like good turtling capabilities and map control being equally good but honestly, it's something we can argue about all day since it's not the same thing. An apple tastes solid and fresh while a pear tastes soft and sweet; they are equal. But even so, does it need to be equal?
The fact of the matter is, if we assume Terran is indeed OP, that you can't boil it down to one thing like "good turtling capabilities". Terran is a package that contains lots of parts. Not every part of the package needs to be equal to other races, only the entire package needs to be. Turtling alone does not win a Terran player games. So if you want to fix the entire package, where do you start?
I hate pointing out what's wrong without even attempting to suggest a solution. I don't have a full answer, but I can imagine starting by making it a little bit easier for other races to defend against tactics that are potentially game-ending (perhaps banshee, or thor+SCV, or blue-flame hellion drop?). Should you lose when a pair of banshees fly into your insufficiently defended base? Substantial damage, but not enough to make you gg would make for more interesting games and might help out balance at the same time.
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Thing is you're arguing about hellions in a thread about the obvious defensive advantage of Terran. That's like saying Force Field is OP because Void Rays are strong, or creep is OP because Mutas are strong. Doesn't really make sense.
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If you have 2 queens on any single hatchery, you will have a lot of transfusions, which is really really brilliant on sunkens getting focus fired, much better than repair at stopping an all in.
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I was just watching a game: qxc Vs Sheth. Sheth had three roaches and a queen at an outlying expansion. qxc, who is well known for being able to snipe roaches with his hellion control got a whopping three kills from his four pre ignitered hellions. So a lot of it is control and focus too.
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On July 31 2010 19:18 MythicalMage wrote:
Thing is you're arguing about hellions in a thread about the obvious defensive advantage of Terran. That's like saying Force Field is OP because Void Rays are strong, or creep is OP because Mutas are strong. Doesn't really make sense.
why? hellions are strong because terran does not need much to defend their own ramp.
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On July 31 2010 19:31 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 19:18 MythicalMage wrote:
Thing is you're arguing about hellions in a thread about the obvious defensive advantage of Terran. That's like saying Force Field is OP because Void Rays are strong, or creep is OP because Mutas are strong. Doesn't really make sense. why? hellions are strong because terran does not need much to defend their own ramp.
So hellions would be weak without that? Every race has harass units and they can all be effective. Void Rays, Phoenixes, Dark Templar, banelings, speedlings, mutalisks, and those are just the obvious ones.
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The thing is you're nay-saying mythical, this doesn't make for good discussion. Your response to my argument is "that would break terran mech as a whole". And that is just so laughable, its not even worth continuing.
I'm not even coming with the typical "mech is completely OP and there's no solution" argument. I am asking you to think about a tiny change that leaves the rest of the game exactly as it is now. Act as if a speed upgrade were required today, what would happen? People would make 2 factories instead of 1 and they would pop out 3 hellions at a time instead of 2. They wouldn't wait to send the hellions out, because they would be researching the speed while they travel, but they would get to Zs base about 20 seconds later. Now this seems more reasonable, you have dedicated a significant portion of your econ to an early harass that is likely to pay off unless your opponent has gone for 1 specific unit (roaches). You are still set up for solid mech play (unless I'm wrong and mech goes 1 fact these days), but if you were going to follow up with bio, you might not want to use hellions with such zeal anymore, either go to reapers or maybe just a tech lab and single pops.
There are advantages and costs to doing early harass in my theoretical situation.
Now come back to the game as it is now. You make a factory, swap with your rax for the reactor and go to town. There are no other BOs because this is solidly the best option at this point in the game. Sure there are some strange individuals playing around with reapers, but we think those guys are funny, why would you use anything but hellions?
Doesn't something seem wrong about that?
You're trying to bring this back to a "terran defense is OP" argument and the thing is I agree with you, terran defense is perfectly fine, zerg lack of defense is perfectly fine. Hellions are what's broke.
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On July 31 2010 19:45 Jermstuddog wrote:
The thing is you're nay-saying mythical, this doesn't make for good discussion. Your response to my argument is "that would break terran mech as a whole". And that is just so laughable, its not even worth continuing. Hellions are the ONLY agression in most mech builds until late late game. So yes, it would hurt mech rather seriously. AND you forgot about all the timing pushes that center on hellions like Marauder Hellion and so on. You seem to really focus on the mech.
I'm not even coming with the typical "mech is completely OP and there's no solution" argument. Thank you for that. I am asking you to think about a tiny change that leaves the rest of the game exactly as it is now. Act as if a speed upgrade were required today, what would happen? People would make 2 factories instead of 1 and they would pop out 3 hellions at a time instead of 2. They wouldn't wait to send the hellions out, because they would be researching the speed while they travel, but they would get to Zs base about 20 seconds later. Now this seems more reasonable, you have dedicated a significant portion of your econ to an early harass that is likely to pay off unless your opponent has gone for 1 specific unit (roaches) You are still set up for solid mech play (unless I'm wrong and mech goes 1 fact these days), but if you were going to follow up with bio, you might not want to use hellions with such zeal anymore, either go to reapers or maybe just a tech lab and single pops. To get hellions out fast enough to do the damage they really need to do, you can't wait for a second factory. That's why you don't see that already for fast pre igniter. You do an early all hellion and then you add on factories with tech labs. If this wasn't from the tech lab, I'd agree with you.
There are advantages and costs to doing early harass in my theoretical situation.
Now come back to the game as it is now. You make a factory, swap with your rax for the reactor and go to town. There are no other BOs because this is solidly the best option at this point in the game. Sure there are some strange individuals playing around with reapers, but we think those guys are funny, why would you use anything but hellions?
Doesn't something seem wrong about that? Sure. Good thing it isn't true. LzGamer's current style is to mass reapers early on vs Zerg. Banshees are equally common, and that covers all the dedicated terran harass units.
You're trying to bring this back to a "terran defense is OP argument" and the thing is I agree with you, terran defense is perfectly fine, zerg lack of defense is perfectly fine. Hellions are what's broke.
Alright, well that's neither here nor there, but I'll continue the argument regardless. Hellions are literally the only units on the field other than tanks before thors. Tanks without units in front of them die almost instantly to even speedlings. That's why Mech takes so long; it's all about positioning. So if you want to argue that the only thing keeping Terran mech alive, and hell even a ton of timing pushes alive is overpowered, be my guest. The forums will change from "Mech is OP" to "Zerg is OP" or the way it was at the start of the beta, "Mech is UP."
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I still think high-ground-advantage is sth Blizz should implement, I also don't think Terran-defense is that much better, but it's better in a different way:
- Whilst P and Z can defend better on different locations thanks to creep-speed-buff or warp-in's, Terran can defend certain positions better, thanks to Tanks, wall-in's etc.
But that's just sth ppl have to work with. It's not like there aren't enough ways to penetrate a Terran-defense, especially when the Terran is pushing with an often slower Army, thinks like Drops, Warp-In's, Speedling-runbys etc. can be extremely powerful.
Besides - T is supposed to be a more defensive race, right?
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''Open thread insert whine here'' Hellion harass = having to park your queen on a ramp and have 1 spine crawler up at your expo to stop this harass.. QQ now get roaches and mass 120381239082 of them like zerg do. then go go burrowed movement. incoming Terran GG
User was warned for this post
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On July 31 2010 20:16 Meldrath wrote:
''Open thread insert whine here'' Hellion harass = having to park your queen on a ramp and have 1 spine crawler up at your expo to stop this harass.. QQ now get roaches and mass 120381239082 of them like zerg do. then go go burrowed movement. incoming Terran GG
No comment. 
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imo I think it was stupid to make supply depots able to lower, makes walls have a super fast on off switch, where as in bw you had to lift and move the barracks, and if zerg suddenly storms up your ramp it takes far to long to place, and is easily stoppable.
imo, supply depots shouldnt rocket out of the ground, they should have a 1 second delay before raising or lowering.
I find most games I play I just sit in T's natural waiting for them to gg cause they have no money left. That or I get broodlords, whichever comes first.
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On July 31 2010 21:00 slowmanrunning wrote:
imo I think it was stupid to make supply depots able to lower, makes walls have a super fast on off switch, where as in bw you had to lift and move the barracks, and if zerg suddenly storms up your ramp it takes far to long to place, and is easily stoppable.
imo, supply depots shouldnt rocket out of the ground, they should have a 1 second delay before raising or lowering.
I find most games I play I just sit in T's natural waiting for them to gg cause they have no money left. That or I get broodlords, whichever comes first.
They have a delay and it is noticeable as a player, if not as a spectator/enemy.
Edit: But I wouldn't mind increasing it.
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On July 31 2010 19:33 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 19:31 Madkipz wrote:On July 31 2010 19:18 MythicalMage wrote:
Thing is you're arguing about hellions in a thread about the obvious defensive advantage of Terran. That's like saying Force Field is OP because Void Rays are strong, or creep is OP because Mutas are strong. Doesn't really make sense. why? hellions are strong because terran does not need much to defend their own ramp. So hellions would be weak without that? Every race has harass units and they can all be effective. Void Rays, Phoenixes, Dark Templar, banelings, speedlings, mutalisks, and those are just the obvious ones.
problem is because zerg early game revolves around mostly defending a greedy opening they have to spend minerals and gas so their harassment is delayed significantly enough for both races to easily counteract.
If terran did not have a significantly strong defence, then hellions would probably be in a more defensive posture knowing that zerg is coming to exploit said hypothetical weak defence. Onebase baneling bust against depo walloff etc.
You are comparing apples with oranges, apples being much easier to eat.
Terran harassment units have a reasonably large chance of being effective regardless of what the opponent has done to protect themselves, wether its reaper, hellion, banshee or thor drop. Terran is the only race that can rely on scouting to do everything for them.
Protoss and Zerg both can not rely on effective harassment because by the time any of their harassment units are out terran have had much time to produce a viable defence or worse gone on the offense while relying on their wall to do everything for them. The other races can not say the same.
On July 31 2010 20:16 Meldrath wrote:
''Open thread insert whine here'' Hellion harass = having to park your queen on a ramp and have 1 spine crawler up at your expo to stop this harass.. QQ now get roaches and mass 120381239082 of them like zerg do. then go go burrowed movement. incoming Terran GG
LOL TROLL ;D
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I'M comparing apples with oranges? I was comparing harass tactics. YOU'RE comparing actual macro mechanics. Reapers have a low chance of being effective in small numbers, and the same with hellions. If they have anti air and/or detection, banshees are quick;y shut down. And the last bit made me laugh. Sure, theoretically a terran COULD have detection every game, or anti air EVERYWHERE every game, or always have a baneling proof wall, but it's not very likely. But none of this is at all relevant to the conversation. I just said that all the races had harass, and now it sounds like a lot of whining about Terran having the strongest harass, which is highly subjective.
But this is the important bit. Every bit of control of these harass units takes focus and control that's not spent on macroing or using other units. It's a distraction. As I said earlier, even the great qxc lost focus and lost a pack of hellions to, as some people in this thread would say, a mere three roaches and a queen. So it takes focus.
EDIT: And who said we were just talking early game? If so, then zerg is obviously at a disadvantage to Protoss and Terran, but that's part of that racial identity everyone was so stalwartly defending a page or two ago.
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EPT
