|
On July 31 2010 13:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
Vultures did 20 explosive damage to 1 target per shot.
This comes out to 20 dmg to light (zealots) 10 damage to medium (hydralisks) and 5 damage to heavy (dragoons).
The reason vultures were so generally helpful in TvP was because of spider mines and the fact that protoss shields took full damage from all weapon types (meaning vultures did 20 damage if the dragoon still had shields)
And yes, roaches end hellion harass. But that is no different from a wall-off ending zerlings or a 2rax wall ending banelings, funny how the terran solutions are available before the problem they solve is huh?
Two rax doesn't necessarily end banelings. You could make 13 banelings, and blow up BOTH raxes, which likely means he has no production buildings and you pretty much instawin.
But that's ENTIRELY BESIDES THE POINT. So Terran is more defensive. They're also less mobile. It's an aspect of their race that defines them, just like Zerg have creep and protoss have shields.
|
On July 31 2010 13:19 MythicalMage wrote:
Two rax doesn't necessarily end banelings. You could make 13 banelings, and blow up BOTH raxes, which likely means he has no production buildings and you pretty much instawin.
But that's ENTIRELY BESIDES THE POINT. So Terran is more defensive. They're also less mobile. It's an aspect of their race that defines them, just like Zerg have creep and protoss have shields.
Have you never seen a flank of 5 or 6 hellions completely obliterate a hydralisk line?
How about the fact that infernal pre-ignighters make hellions 2 shot zerglings (mind you it takes collosi +2 or +3 weapon upgrades to kill lings this fast) and they burn through workers all game long. (Medivac w/ 4 pre-ignighter hellions = 12+ dead workers, and this is off 2 volleys)
Hellions are like super fast, super cheap collosi when it comes to any light armored units, just because terran obliterates both other races so badly they don't even have to use their mediocre hellion (lol at hellions being reffered to as mediocre) does not make it a bad unit.
But like you said, this is besides the point, stop trying to talk about terran being immobile when they have 2 of the fastest units in the game. Oddly enough, one of those needs an upgrade to achieve that title. Funny that every TvZ game involves the other one in the first 5 minutes of the game.
Any way you cut it, a Terran nerf is coming down the line, I'm fairly certain. If I were a terran player, I would be hoping and praying its something as insignificant as making hellions have to research their insane speed for such a cheap price.
EDIT: I totally forgot to address the quote.
Baneling busts are an all-in cheese, and if I can blow 650 minerals and 325 gas on your barracks, then still manage to take out your fighting units with whatever I have behind that, you deserve to lose.... I can beat your standard wall with a 6 pool too. Neither one guarantees a game out-right, and as time goes by we are seeing less and less baneling busts because terrans are learning how to defend them.
Hellion harass on the other hand continues to be economically insignificant and risk-free while sitting right in the middle of your regularly scheduled tech path. Something seems significantly out-of-whack with that...
|
On July 31 2010 13:35 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 13:19 MythicalMage wrote:
Two rax doesn't necessarily end banelings. You could make 13 banelings, and blow up BOTH raxes, which likely means he has no production buildings and you pretty much instawin.
But that's ENTIRELY BESIDES THE POINT. So Terran is more defensive. They're also less mobile. It's an aspect of their race that defines them, just like Zerg have creep and protoss have shields. Have you never seen a flank of 5 or 6 hellions completely obliterate a hydralisk line? I've also seen vulture flanks.
How about the fact that infernal pre-ignighters make hellions 2 shot zerglings (mind you it takes collosi +2 or +3 weapon upgrades to achieve this feat) and they burn through workers all game long. (Medivac w/ 4 pre-ignighter hellions = 12+ dead workers, and this is off 2 volleys) It also requires an addon that you won't get for a while if you're rushing for hellions.
Hellions are like super fast, super cheap collosi when it comes to any light armored units, just because terran obliterates both other races so badly they don't even have to use their mediocre hellion (lol at hellions being reffered to as mediocre) does not make it a bad unit. As mentioned above, to really be an army unit, they have to get the upgrade from the tech lab which is not optimal for hellion production. And that sounds like a balance discussion.
But like you said, this is besides the point, stop trying to talk about terran being immobile when they have 2 of the fastest units in the game. Oddly enough, one of those needs an upgrade to achieve that title. Funny that every TvZ game involves the other one in the first 5 minutes of the game. Are we talking casual or pro? I've seen TvZ without either, and it's not the end of the world. Someone already mentioned that Zerg can make drones faster than terran can make SCVs. And as for the immobility thing, Lurkers are pretty immobile too, but that doesn't mean Zerg in BW was immobile.
Any way you cut it, a Terran nerf is coming down the line, I'm fairly certain. If I were a terran player, I would be hoping and praying its something as insignificant as making hellions have to research their insane speed for such a cheap price. Ha! I love it when people say things that have no backing. Blizzard has shown no intention of giving any balancing patches after beta. They want to add features, sure, but not really balance anything that they've said. Look at a recent tournament, for example. Take the Day9 KotB. Terrans didn't even get into the finals. (Given QXC played terribly.) Regardless, all you guys bitching that mech kills my hydras should go look at the bloody "Counter guide" or whatever it's called ingame. EVERY factory unit makes hydras. That's a hint not to use them against mech.
Not that ANY of this matters, mind you. You're just venting about what you see as an imbalance, and I can't really blame you for that. So yes, Terran has a defensive advantage. And no, it doesn't really matter.
|
On July 31 2010 13:47 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 13:35 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 31 2010 13:19 MythicalMage wrote:
Two rax doesn't necessarily end banelings. You could make 13 banelings, and blow up BOTH raxes, which likely means he has no production buildings and you pretty much instawin.
But that's ENTIRELY BESIDES THE POINT. So Terran is more defensive. They're also less mobile. It's an aspect of their race that defines them, just like Zerg have creep and protoss have shields. Have you never seen a flank of 5 or 6 hellions completely obliterate a hydralisk line? I've also seen vulture flanks. Show nested quote +How about the fact that infernal pre-ignighters make hellions 2 shot zerglings (mind you it takes collosi +2 or +3 weapon upgrades to achieve this feat) and they burn through workers all game long. (Medivac w/ 4 pre-ignighter hellions = 12+ dead workers, and this is off 2 volleys) It also requires an addon that you won't get for a while if you're rushing for hellions. Show nested quote +Hellions are like super fast, super cheap collosi when it comes to any light armored units, just because terran obliterates both other races so badly they don't even have to use their mediocre hellion (lol at hellions being reffered to as mediocre) does not make it a bad unit. As mentioned above, to really be an army unit, they have to get the upgrade from the tech lab which is not optimal for hellion production. And that sounds like a balance discussion. Show nested quote +But like you said, this is besides the point, stop trying to talk about terran being immobile when they have 2 of the fastest units in the game. Oddly enough, one of those needs an upgrade to achieve that title. Funny that every TvZ game involves the other one in the first 5 minutes of the game. Are we talking casual or pro? I've seen TvZ without either, and it's not the end of the world. Someone already mentioned that Zerg can make drones faster than terran can make SCVs. And as for the immobility thing, Lurkers are pretty immobile too, but that doesn't mean Zerg in BW was immobile. Show nested quote +Any way you cut it, a Terran nerf is coming down the line, I'm fairly certain. If I were a terran player, I would be hoping and praying its something as insignificant as making hellions have to research their insane speed for such a cheap price. Ha! I love it when people say things that have no backing. Blizzard has shown no intention of giving any balancing patches after beta. They want to add features, sure, but not really balance anything that they've said. Look at a recent tournament, for example. Take the Day9 KotB. Terrans didn't even get into the finals. (Given QXC played terribly.) Regardless, all you guys bitching that mech kills my hydras should go look at the bloody "Counter guide" or whatever it's called ingame. EVERY factory unit makes hydras. That's a hint not to use them against mech. Not that ANY of this matters, mind you. You're just venting about what you see as an imbalance, and I can't really blame you for that. So yes, Terran has a defensive advantage. And no, it doesn't really matter.
EDIT: Not all baneling busts are all in. You can recover from them, just like you can recover from flying your mutas into a thor.
EDIT EDIT: Hit quote instead of edit. Whoops.
|
On July 31 2010 13:47 MythicalMage wrote:
So yes, Terran has a defensive advantage. And no, it doesn't really matter.
This is what I'm venting about, I haven't mentioned the terran defense advantage other than to say its a non-issue. I guess logical arguments have no place on the internet though... what was I thinking?
|
On July 31 2010 13:53 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 13:47 MythicalMage wrote:
So yes, Terran has a defensive advantage. And no, it doesn't really matter.
This is what I'm venting about, I haven't mentioned the terran defense advantage other than to say its a non-issue. I guess logical arguments have no place on the internet though... what was I thinking?
That's what this thread is about, last time I checked. XP
|
13 banelings on a barracks is not an all in now? I'm done.
|
On July 31 2010 13:55 Jermstuddog wrote:
13 banelings on a barracks is not an all in now? I'm done.
No, that situation was an all in. XD. It seemed like you were implying that ALL baneling usage was an all in.
|
On July 31 2010 10:40 MythicalMage wrote:
From the little I know, this is very similar to the way it was in BW. Sure he can one base forever, but if you take the entire map, there's not much he can do. Also, repairing isn't free either, and, more importantly, focusing down the repairers is an important aspect of micro. Sure terran can defend, but that's an aspect of the race that is super important. You can't compare races like that. As the recent article said, this isn't Warcraft in space; all the races are unique.
This isn't broken, this is an aspect of the game.
Yes terran was a defensive race in scbw but zerg also had pretty strong defensive capabilities to match that of terran. Sunken colonies were very resilient and could be morphed very quickly when necessary. Zerg also had the lurker and as a channeling unit, it could really shine in defensive postures. So zerg had a defensive advantage when dealing with bionic balls.
On July 31 2010 10:47 Doormat wrote:
1. Protoss can also wall off. Have sentries to force field ramps and can warp in units to any powered area with warpgates.
2. No race can power drones like zerg. Therefore for balance they should have to put more effort into defending early pressure.
I'll speak to TvZ because I play Terran but I would assume this applies to Protoss as well:
The big tension is that the Zerg will get a macro advantage and then win because of the advantage producing out of a hatchery provides them. Therefore it is the Terran's responsibility to either win based on more efficient unit composition (which I haven't seen yet) or to put pressure on the Zerg early to prevent the macro advantage. So making it so the Zerg can't defend easily makes this tension balanced otherwise Zergs will just turtle up, get the macro advantage, and win.
What I am trying to say is either you are able to defend or are not. There is no in between possibilities like the terran has.Engaging terran in the center and defending right at your natural provides basically no advantage.
Using the thor roach example I stated in the OP roach and thor fight in the center of the map. Lets say 10 roaches versus a thor away from creep and repair, 5 roaches remain after the battle (I don't know how many exactly but it sounds reasonable). If this were to occur on creep maybe 6 roaches will remain since your roaches got up to the thor slightly faster. Now put this at the terrans base with repair and the 10 roaches all die without killing the thor. Now lets say 3 thors are attacking a zerg with 10 roaches. 1 thor dies and all the roaches die on and off creep. You don't really benefit much from being the defender so you don't actually have a defenders
advantage.
On July 31 2010 11:18 Pokebunny wrote:
It's a feature of the race. Terran has always had the inherent flaw of being less mobile with said strong defending units. Honestly, I would be depressed if this was changed - defining features of the races is what seems to be lacking a bit compared to sc1.
They can keep all there defensive capabilities. Actually I would prefer it but they need to give zerg and I guess protoss (I'm not too sure about the state of pvt) a slightly better way of defending. In scbw picture a 2hatch lurker build trying to ram into a terran natural. 2 bunkers with 6 marines in them + maybe 6 more marines behind that. Zerg tries to attack with 3 lurkers and 20 zerglings and terran is able to use the defenders advantage of bunkers and repair.
Now think of another situation where terran tries a 5 barracks all-in sunken break with 30 marines 2 firebats and 5 medics. Zerg suspected this and went fast lurkers + 4 sunkens. He is able to defend with 3 lurkers behind this because he has a defenders advantage using a tactically placed unit along with a strong tank(sunken). Now in this situation imagine the sunken instantly melts to the marines and the lurker doesn't exist as a tactical crowd control unit. You mass hydra mutaling. Does it matter whether you engage in the center or at your natural? No because you get no added benefit from being in a defensive position.
On July 31 2010 11:37 CynanMachae wrote:
You could write an pretty identical situation for sc:bw by changing a few units names.
What situation would that be? It'd be nice to make a comparison. Nothing I can think of can overcome zerg static defense in the way a marauder does. 2 marauders kill a spine crawler.
On July 31 2010 12:01 MythicalMage wrote:
Zerg are still the most mobile. Terran are still the least. Sure it's a different game, but defending as terran is the same, and it's similar for zerg. Spine crawlers are still pretty good AND you have the queen now AND you can produce more zerglings at a time thanks to that queen.
Terran the least mobile? The zergling and mutalisk are the only two units I can think of that are more mobile then a stimmed bio ball with medivacs or a group of hellions. Spine crawlers are terrible against marauders and queens don't put out enough dps to be a significant part of a defensive advantage.
On July 31 2010 13:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
And yes, roaches end hellion harass. But that is no different from a wall-off ending zerlings or a 2rax wall ending banelings, funny how the terran solutions are available before the problem they solve is huh?
From my experience roaches do not end hellion harass.
So I guess for a very simplified explanation I don't like how Terran can get away with more then the other races. In brood war zerg was able to get away with tons of drones and 11 mutalisks because of the strength of sunkens and the quickness of the morph. Zerg could get away with a third off of 2 lurkers because of the ramp and lurkers. Zerg could get away with 5hatch hydras using simcity sunkens. Protoss was able to get away with FE because cannons were strong and they could walloff. Terran was able to get away with 1rax FE because of repair and ranged advantage. Terran kept these advantages, zerg did not.
|
I'm not quoting you, but, I'll speak in order.
1) I assume you mean sunkens. I think that having the queen, which can move, makes up for the weakening of the Spine Crawler. As for the lurker, you could theoretically burrow banelings or something. Dunno. But again, zerglings weren't as fast.
2)Repair isn't free. On something like a thor, it's pretty expensive. Repair also takes gas, just to let you know.
3) As Day9 keeps telling us, the agressor has the advantage in this game. You get the freedom to expand and the Xel'Naga Watchtowers among other things.
4)I dunno enough about BW to make a comparison.
5)A STIMMED bio ball. That's 10 less health for the marines, and 20 for the marauders. So yes, stimming makes them mobile. But Zerg has that effectively everywhere there's creep with speedlings and roaches and even ultras. I'd rather not discuss hellions anymore, but as an army unit they're normally used with mech, or in very situational timing pushes. (Like Marauder Hellion thor and the like.) And Protoss top terran with warp gates and quick air and, hell, even mass recall. Most importantly, Terran is still a race that builds tanks, and tanks have to siege to even do any damage and so on.
5) Wall off your choke to your natural with roaches, and support with queen/spine cralwers as needed. You shouldn't have a problem on creep. Certain maps like Kulas will bite you, but Kulas is heavily biased against Zerg.
|
Weighing in on Terran defensive advantage in TvP, I do think that in this matchup as well, Terran can defend really well on a panic reaction, especially compared to the pathetic (read: nonexistent) advantages Protoss have as defender when they don't have a ramp to forcefield. Cannons are weaker than spine crawlers, and require a forge. Blizzard, when you buff spine crawlers, please buff photon cannons, too. I'd like to be able to scare away mutalisks with cannons again.
Anyway, Terran can do basically any FE they like in TvP (1-rax, no gas), and have a chance to hold anything Protoss can do. All they need to do is add more bunkers. Protoss, by contrast, can't hold any one-base play by Terran unless they are playing on one base as well. Protoss doesn't even get the mobility advantage Zerg has... Maybe if Protoss had something like a shield battery, or could move photon cannons, or something... Also, please don't consider warp in a defensive advantage. If all of a Protoss player's warp gates are ready to warp in units when you attack, it's most likely because they have bad macro. If they had near perfect macro, you'd have to be very unlucky to attack right as they're about to start warping in units.
On Terran mobility:
MMM is really, really mobile, especially compared to Protoss who chose Templar tech. High Templar have the same move speed as a Thor, and with decent micro, MMM can load up and cliff hop pretty easily. Also, Terran has very strong, very deadly, very, very mobile harass in marauder drops and hellions.
|
The queen does not make up for that at all. If someone finds a way to reliably integrate burrowed banelings into a standard game then I will be happy. Burrowed banelings are more like really expensive spider mines then lurkers. They can buy you time but using them in a defensive posture may prove difficult.
Ya repair isn't free which is why it isn't overpowered. It just contributes to the strength of terran which I think is too great.
In a game where the aggressor has the advantage, things turn into mass all-in. Also I don't think the aggressor will always have the advantage versus terran because of the things I listed in the op. So zerg is on equal footing when in the center or defending and terran is at an advantage when defending. That doesn't sound fair
Mobility isn't just about how fast your units move. Medivacs make your army extremely mobile because you are able to drop in multiple locations and easily move your entire army into different spots. For zerg to mimic this they must either invest in drop or nydus warms. Terran's mode of transport are already integral parts of their army (healers) and mobility is secondary.
Lastly that works on a very limited number of maps. LT is one of my favorite maps because it is so easy to wall off with some roaches, spine, and queen.
Delta quadrant, xelnaga cavers, DO, kulas and metalopolis have huge open naturals that hellions can abuse. Steps, blistering, and scrap have a weird layout so you can't really wall you ramp and natural so hellions can still harass. That leaves LT which I mentioned above.
|
So it's not overpowere or it's too great? I'm really confused what you're wanting here. Do you want Terran defense to be nerfed or Zerg/'Toss defense to be buffed?Medivacs are effectively overlords which are effectively warp prisms. They all move stuff around. It's just that only one of them is frequently used. So, all of those maps, to my knowledge (Dunno about Xel'Naga caverns) except Metalopolis are heavily biased against zerg. That's a map imbalance, not a racial one. Blistering wall ins are cake, there's just the back door. The natural in Scrap station is pretty readily defended. But, there's something important here.
You talk about tanks. And then you talk about infantry in medivacs. Do you mean Bio Mech, Pure mech( as the hellion discussion hinted), or pure Bio?
|
On July 31 2010 11:40 AssuredVacancy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 11:37 CynanMachae wrote:
You could write an pretty identical situation for sc:bw by changing a few units names. bw's zerg was way more mobile than sc2 zerg, also bw zerg had darkswarm, which is like ridiculous defence
But that was late game... i dought you have Dark Swarm at the time 3/4 vultures come knocking.
|
On July 31 2010 15:40 MythicalMage wrote:
So it's not overpowere or it's too great? I'm really confused what you're wanting here. Do you want Terran defense to be nerfed or Zerg/'Toss defense to be buffed?Medivacs are effectively overlords which are effectively warp prisms. They all move stuff around. It's just that only one of them is frequently used. So, all of those maps, to my knowledge (Dunno about Xel'Naga caverns) except Metalopolis are heavily biased against zerg. That's a map imbalance, not a racial one. Blistering wall ins are cake, there's just the back door. The natural in Scrap station is pretty readily defended. But, there's something important here.
You talk about tanks. And then you talk about infantry in medivacs. Do you mean Bio Mech, Pure mech( as the hellion discussion hinted), or pure Bio?
Terran is too strong. Repair contributes to that but is not overpowered alone.
I want zerg buffed as stated in the OP.
I'd like to see the blistering sands wall and I did not even mention siege tanks. When something tanks it means it takes the damage. In brood war ultraling, ultralisks tanked (took the bulk of the damage) while zerglings did the damage.
Overlord drop means you went out of the way to get drop. Medivacs are healers required to use your bio ball effectively and the dropship ability is almost extra. So by getting a required unit for one purpose you basically get a free mobility boost that bolsters your army as a whole.
|
Blistering sands has a really small choke. Like maybe three or four roaches could do it. I'd have to test it.
Yeah, sure. So like, bunkers then? Walls? What exactly do you have a problem with? Buildings? If it's not repair, then it has to be the strength of terran buildings, which, as mentioned, is critical to the race's identity.
|
I've gone through the posts over the first 2 pages so far and my mind hasn't really been changed from disagreeing with the OP. I'm primarily thinking about 3 main points. First off it's that Terran players walling off is nothing new. They did it in BW, they still do it in SC2. It's an advantage of being Terran.
What did Zerg have in ZvT (since this is the main focus of the OP)? It began with really early map control, using as few as 6 speedlings to keep Terran in their base. I did some searching, and I'll admit that SC2 Zergling speed takes far too long (110 seconds compared to 80 in BW). Even so, a queen can hold off any reaper shenanigans until the upgrade finishes. This sort of map control/presence continues as creep spreads around the place, giving the Zerg mobility and vision of huge parts of the map.At this point, Zerg now has to worry about reactor hellions. Well, a Zerg that has his second base can note that a queen blocks the ramp against hellions beautifully, and a few well placed spine crawlers will make early hellion aggression impossible. (OP, you argue about sunken being so much better than spine crawlers, and I simply don't believe this is true. Spine crawlers cost 25 less total minerals including the drone, can move around, but take 10 more seconds to complete.) If you're on the ball with scouting and see any evidence of hellions, you'll have ample time to prepare.
Which brings me to my third point, spine crawlers are not shit. The marauder-counters-spinecrawler argument makes no sense. Can a well timed marine push bust a sunken line in BW? Yes. Can they do it with said 11 mutalisks bearing down on them? No. Similarly the spine crawler is not an end all defensive structure. It is a deterrent, and in the case of holding a push it becomes a defender's advantage. Use units to soak damage while they go to down on those tiny infantry units. Hell, make a good number of ling/baneling and tear up any early aggression. As a Terran I have nightmares of pushing out knowing banelings are on the field, possibly burrowed right under me as I attack.
If whoever reads my post takes anything from it, it's that to win Starcraft you have to know your opponent. In this particular situation, Zerg has to understand the massive concern Terran has with a hardcore macro Zerg (i.e. Idra and his death army). Realizing this makes it clear that Terran will try anything to stop that powerhouse from coming into fruition. The tools to defend yourself ARE there, so make the most of them. Zerg doesn't have problems defending, it's only when they skimp on units or crawlers to power drone do they find themselves being massacred by timing pushes and the like.
|
Sorry to ask but do you play zerg?
4 roaches delays lair so much and walling with them only does not work. It's also pretty difficult to get them out fast enough to defend the initial hellions. 1 or 2 roaches ya but when you run off of 1 gas it is pretty difficult to keep producing when you need lair. Hellions can also kite roaches so walling with them equals death.
Second part of the post I'm not sure what you are asking.
|
Well said dude man. Well said.
|
On July 31 2010 16:04 kNyTTyM wrote:
Sorry to ask but do you play zerg?
4 roaches delays lair so much and walling with them only does not work. It's also pretty difficult to get them out fast enough to defend the initial hellions. 1 or 2 roaches ya but when you run off of 1 gas it is pretty difficult to keep producing when you need lair. Hellions can also kite roaches so walling with them equals death.
Second part of the post I'm not sure what you are asking.
I have played zerg. Not focusing on it at the moment. Why not roaches after lair? I dunno all the timings by heart of when hellions arrive, but it's something you have to tinker with to find what works for you. Also hellions kiting roaches isn't easy. Very few PRO players do it, they mostly try to avoid roaches when possible.
EDIT: The second part was asking about what particular bit of turtling terran you had a problem with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
