[D]Terran Defender's Advantage - Page 3

On July 31 2010 16:02 dudeman001 wrote:
I've gone through the posts over the first 2 pages so far and my mind hasn't really been changed from disagreeing with the OP. I'm primarily thinking about 3 main points. First off it's that Terran players walling off is nothing new. They did it in BW, they still do it in SC2. It's an advantage of being Terran.

What did Zerg have in ZvT (since this is the main focus of the OP)? It began with really early map control, using as few as 6 speedlings to keep Terran in their base. I did some searching, and I'll admit that SC2 Zergling speed takes far too long (110 seconds compared to 80 in BW). Even so, a queen can hold off any reaper shenanigans until the upgrade finishes. This sort of map control/presence continues as creep spreads around the place, giving the Zerg mobility and vision of huge parts of the map.At this point, Zerg now has to worry about reactor hellions. Well, a Zerg that has his second base can note that a queen blocks the ramp against hellions beautifully, and a few well placed spine crawlers will make early hellion aggression impossible. (OP, you argue about sunken being so much better than spine crawlers, and I simply don't believe this is true. Spine crawlers cost 25 less total minerals including the drone, can move around, but take 10 more seconds to complete.) If you're on the ball with scouting and see any evidence of hellions, you'll have ample time to prepare.

Which brings me to my third point, spine crawlers are not shit. The marauder-counters-spinecrawler argument makes no sense. Can a well timed marine push bust a sunken line in BW? Yes. Can they do it with said 11 mutalisks bearing down on them? No. Similarly the spine crawler is not an end all defensive structure. It is a deterrent, and in the case of holding a push it becomes a defender's advantage. Use units to soak damage while they go to down on those tiny infantry units. Hell, make a good number of ling/baneling and tear up any early aggression. As a Terran I have nightmares of pushing out knowing banelings are on the field, possibly burrowed right under me as I attack.

If whoever reads my post takes anything from it, it's that to win Starcraft you have to know your opponent. In this particular situation, Zerg has to understand the massive concern Terran has with a hardcore macro Zerg (i.e. Idra and his death army). Realizing this makes it clear that Terran will try anything to stop that powerhouse from coming into fruition. The tools to defend yourself ARE there, so make the most of them. Zerg doesn't have problems defending, it's only when they skimp on units or crawlers to power drone do they find themselves being massacred by timing pushes and the like.

On July 31 2010 16:07 MythicalMage wrote:

I have played zerg. Not focusing on it at the moment. Why not roaches after lair? I dunno all the timings by heart of when hellions arrive, but it's something you have to tinker with to find what works for you. Also hellions kiting roaches isn't easy. Very few PRO players do it, they mostly try to avoid roaches when possible.
EDIT: The second part was asking about what particular bit of turtling terran you had a problem with.

On July 31 2010 16:43 MythicalMage wrote:
Give me ONE pro game where the reaper gets anywhere near a queen on creep. Reapers avoid queens on creep like the plague.

Exactly. It's supposed to be annoying. Being annoying doesn't mean it's bad. Void Rays are annoying. Baneling are annoying. Mutas are annoying.

What the hell? First you start talking about "they're bad vs hellions," then you say "spines will be bused by six marauders." There's a real zerg tech switch for you. XP. Spinecrawlers are SUPPOSED to be weak to marauders, otherwise you'd walk in with a pure marine army twice as big.

And yes, banelings aren't "standard" but if you have the gas and see the potential for damage, take advantage of it.

You can't say, "Well in Brood War this was blah" without looking at every single other change that has happened in the game.

On July 31 2010 16:37 kNyTTyM wrote:


Queens actually can't hold off all reaper harass but that isn't that important.

Defending the first few hellions has been very annoying in most of my zvt games. Queen on ramp means he can run into the natural drone line and in certain cases just shoot the queen from the low ground. I've been constantly using metalopolis as my example but I think it is the best known map with an open natural. I'm not sure why I keep coming back to hellions but defending hellions wasn't really the point of this thread.

Spines are really bad versus hellions. I have yet to watch/play a game that has changed my mind about this. Let me try to find some VODs to show you what I mean. Spines deter very little. 3 sunkens in brood war will deter 12marines 2 firebats and 2 medics. 3 spines will be busted easily by 6 marauders. Spines may be equal in strength to sunkens but comparated to the overall damage output increase of sc2 units, they are now weaker.

I haven't actually found a ling/ baneling opener that can be used as a standard but if there is a vod you've seen it in, please recommend it. Strong baneling play is always fun to watch but as I stated before I am skeptical that it can become a standard opener.

On July 31 2010 17:26 dudeman001 wrote:


But queens do stop reaper harass =/ Either way, once the pool is up and a queen is out, Zerg can also have lings and those combined with the queen will stop a reaper.

Fast hellions can be a really powerful play. (Also a risk play, as by the time Terran has at least 4 hellions, Zergs that went straight to roach will have 5+ roaches out). But that's why spine crawlers are all the defense zerg needs. I guess they don't do obscene amounts of damage to hellions, but hellions cannot kill them and so where you place spine crawlers dictates where Terran can effectively harass. One close to the ramp so they can't kite-kill your queen, and one by the natural mineral line is all you really need in terms of spine crawlers. But relying on spine crawlers without units to back them up will never work. This applies to 6marauder vs 3 spine crawlers. Like I said before, sunken lines can only stop so much, they're obscenely more powerful with unit support from the Zerg. This is only easier for Zerg now that larva injection has removed the intense stress for larva Zerg players faced in BW.

Spine damage doesn't feel strong (25, 30 vs armored) but it's still a hefty amount. Again, relying on the structure alone doesn't work. Protoss players have learned making cannons with nothing else can be a very risk play nowadays. Because Zerg can make more units than ever before, balancing units, workers and defense is very manageable in SC2.

I honestly don't know baneling openings very well. I just know, from the Terran perspective, moving out becomes the scariest thing in the world. Sometimes I'll delay my push until I get a raven, just because instantly losing all of my marines means instant loss. Compare the baneling to the hellion, it serves multiple purposes. Both units can be added to the army composition, and while the hellion forces the enemy to watch out for harass, the baneling forces the enemy to watch out when being aggressive.

On July 31 2010 17:55 MythicalMage wrote:
Bunkers have a cost. They cost mining time, travel time, and 100 minerals. If you salvage it, you get that back. Thing is, if hellions weren't as good as they were, mech would die completely. There's no way to make mech viable without hellions.

Anyhow, ZvP is looking pretty cool right now. Seems like there's a lot of cool things from both sides. ZvT is pretty fun to watch, IMO, especially if the Terran is going mech, whether it succeeds or fails. ZvZ is comlete and utter bullshit.

On July 31 2010 18:03 MythicalMage wrote:
It also bears noting that you won't move out with one Vulture. But when you make a hellion, you make them two at time, from a reactor. So having a speed upgrade makes a lot less sense with a massable unit. And did I mention that that would require a tech lab which would totally destroy numerous timing pushes, and mech.

On July 31 2010 15:35 kNyTTyM wrote:
The queen does not make up for that at all. If someone finds a way to reliably integrate burrowed banelings into a standard game then I will be happy. Burrowed banelings are more like really expensive spider mines then lurkers. They can buy you time but using them in a defensive posture may prove difficult.

On July 31 2010 16:43 MythicalMage wrote:
Give me ONE pro game where the reaper gets anywhere near a queen on creep. Reapers avoid queens on creep like the plague.

On July 31 2010 18:28 rauk wrote:


ensnare vs gerrard and check in ogs vs prime takes on and kills queens with his speed reapers in the early game.

On July 31 2010 18:22 Jermstuddog wrote:
I'm done arguing with mythicals "just do everything and you can beat mech" logic, but I see people mentioning ZvZ and I would like to point out, Z has a much better "defenders advantage" in this MU.

Defending against lings?
1 baneling can kill 5-7 zerglings easy, especially in a defensive position like a ramp.

Defending against roaches?
They're so slow you can see them coming from across the map with plenty of time to set up whatever chosen defense you have. roach/queen, roach/hydra, spine colonies, and zerglings are all very acceptable and powerful defenses.

On July 31 2010 18:30 MythicalMage wrote:

Damnit all, mentioning a korean game. But that's speed reapers in a completely different style. That's more similar to LzGamer's style these days with continuous reaper production to secure an expo, if it's anything like what I'm thinking of. Anyhow, that comes a bit later and you have speed and you have a lot of reapers. So, the zerg would have speed and a queen, but yeah that can be rather effective. At that point, it almost stops being harass, and becomes early pressure.