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Zerg have creep and spinecrawlers. Terran have an army whose immobility is mitigated by the fact that it is incredibly potent if approached head on, not to mention a very decent semi-free defensive structure. But lets examine the Protoss options.
1. Photon Canons. I really don't have too much to say about these. They require a somewhat sideways tech, and they cost a fair amount. They can prove to be useful in some situations, but obviously having static defense in your natural as being the only reason that another player feels less safe having a battle on your doorstep than in the middle of the map is not ideal.
2. Forcefield. Forcefield is exceptional defensively - until you expand. The current map pool (with the exception of LT and arguably Kulas) lacks abusable chokes at the natural (or offers cutesy ways to bypass them). But on maps like Desert Oasis, Metalopalis and Blistering Sands the aggressor can usually simply walk around forcefields, giving the defending protoss very little advantage.
This is not too much of an issue in PvZ and PvT, as the natural flow of the matchups provide Protoss with timings with which to put up expansions. But in PvP this presents a significant problem. Expanding in PvP means taking 400 minerals out of your army size. If you expand, you will die to an army 400 minerals larger. If you expand with canons, your opponent can just expand without canons, and he'll also be ahead. PvP is still kind of playable at the moment because people are still figuring out unit compositions, and slight advantages in composition provide timing windows in which to expand. But as compositions becomes more standardized this will obviously cease to be the case, and non LT PvP games will start to degenerate into a game of chicken with who expands first replacing who turns first. This is also expounded by the warp in mechanic, which removes the advantage gained by being able to reinforce yourself faster than your opponent.
PvP on LT is fun though! Though blink stalkers kind of nullify the defensive advantage of the natural choke forcefields, as do one base colossus. So yeah, the matchup has some pretty serious problems. I don't claim to know anything about ZvZ as it stands, but I would guess that there are similar issues, hence ling/baneling.
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Couldn't the same really be said for all mirror matchups?
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On July 12 2010 13:19 esp wrote:
Couldn't the same really be said for all mirror matchups?
Try walking your army into your opponents natural in TvT. Also other races at least have the disadvantage of having to reinforce from a distance, not so in PvP.
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I think his point is that the other races have a notable defensive advantage in a mirror match up. Terran has the tanks and bunkers. Zerg has their crawlers and (to a lesser extent) queens. Protoss has cannons. Cannons do sound like the leas intimidating of the 3 when your in a mirror match up don't they?
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I wish blizzard weren't balancing the game around these cutesy maps. Maybe it's just the SC1 player in me, but I feel there is more luck involved when the game degenerates into 1 base strategies. When maps are constructed to allow safe FEs, they also generally limit extreme early game options and allow the game to progress to a stage where some midgame scouting has occurred. In all MUs the maps make it harder to FE than in SC1.
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On July 12 2010 13:31 Zack1900 wrote:
I think his point is that the other races have a notable defensive advantage in a mirror match up. Terran has the tanks and bunkers. Zerg has their crawlers and (to a lesser extent) queens. Protoss has cannons. Cannons do sound like the leas intimidating of the 3 when your in a mirror match up don't they?
I guess so, but personally I think that the mobility of Protoss (namely warpgates) makes up for that. But then again, since it's a mirror match, both teams have the potential to reinforce quickly. Cannons aren't really the only defence Protoss have though. I mean with a decent choke + forcefields, you've essentially cut the other guy's army in half. I would consider that a pretty good defence
Edit: Sorry, re-read the OP and saw that he already touched on FF. I guess that sorta cancels out what I said. So yeah I guess I do agree that PvP has the hardest time defending their expos. But maybe we're not looking at it the right way. Offence could potentially be the best defence in PvP, For example having a couple void rays fly into your opponents mineral lines while you defend off their push on your natural. Sure, it doesn't help directly with the forces attacking your base but it will keep your opponent on their toes. Most of the time, their push will be composed of their entire army, leaving their base unprotected. And if they have cannons? Then your warpgate units will be that much more numbersome.
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Well the simple solution is don't expand unless your opponent expands, or until you have a clash and you come ahead, it's very much like that in ZvZ in SCBW... You can't expand if you don't have a bigger army or you will get rolled, also another disadvantage is more places to protect once you expand, I definately think that PvP will become only one base play, either collosus or immortal oriented builds, I don't see Stargate builds being effective in the long run and with the nerf to warpgates I think the 4 gate rush has been weakened enough so that people prefer the one gate robo build more. I actually like PvP as it is, you have to counter your opponents army composition and it uses alot of strategy of when to engage etc.
A match up isn't bad just because you are forced to stay on 1 base, or two at max, it just makes it micro intensive, and strategy oriented, that's all I want to say.
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On July 12 2010 13:33 Muirhead wrote:
I wish blizzard weren't balancing the game around these cutesy maps. Maybe it's just the SC1 player in me, but I feel there is more luck involved when the game degenerates into 1 base strategies. When maps are constructed to allow safe FEs, they also generally limit extreme early game options and allow the game to progress to a stage where some midgame scouting has occurred. In all MUs the maps make it harder to FE than in SC1.
Going for a FE should be a decision, not something automatic. If high level players are guaranteed to be able to FE on a map... why would they ever not do it? There's no way to punish them for it.
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On July 12 2010 13:19 esp wrote:
Couldn't the same really be said for all mirror matchups?
Not TvT. Terran has few ways to deal with tanks compared to the other races.
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On July 12 2010 13:40 sikyon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2010 13:33 Muirhead wrote:
I wish blizzard weren't balancing the game around these cutesy maps. Maybe it's just the SC1 player in me, but I feel there is more luck involved when the game degenerates into 1 base strategies. When maps are constructed to allow safe FEs, they also generally limit extreme early game options and allow the game to progress to a stage where some midgame scouting has occurred. In all MUs the maps make it harder to FE than in SC1. Going for a FE should be a decision, not something automatic. If high level players are guaranteed to be able to FE on a map... why would they ever not do it? There's no way to punish them for it.
Exactly, that's why cheese has to exist, to punish those who try to get away with a huge economic lead, expanding is just as all in as cheesing. 1 base play is more luck based because it's micro oriented and even the best players can be beaten in a few micro battles while it's hard for them to lose in macro battles, as well as one fight doesn't seal the game in longer games.
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Don't you also have to consider the way the Protoss can wall off certain expansions and the main? That also is a defensive side to the Protoss game and effective if done correctly
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On July 12 2010 13:40 Skillz_Man wrote:
Well the simple solution is don't expand unless your opponent expands, or until you have a clash and you come ahead, it's very much like that in ZvZ in SCBW... You can't expand if you don't have a bigger army or you will get rolled, also another disadvantage is more places to protect once you expand, I definately think that PvP will become only one base play, either collosus or immortal oriented builds, I don't see Stargate builds being effective in the long run and with the nerf to warpgates I think the 4 gate rush has been weakened enough so that people prefer the one gate robo build more. I actually like PvP as it is, you have to counter your opponents army composition and it uses alot of strategy of when to engage etc.
A match up isn't bad just because you are forced to stay on 1 base, or two at max, it just makes it micro intensive, and strategy oriented, that's all I want to say.
The thing is I don't really see unit composition as "strategy" as a sustainable way for winners to be decided in a match up. Sure in the early stages of SC2 while people are still figuring out all the timings (and we're still only just beginning) it makes for semi-passable play, but as the metagame develops and becomes more standardized the matchup will either become 1-base rock-paper-scissors or 1-base we each have the exact same optimal unit composition.
And to the guy who pointed out building wall offs, that is a very good point and i'd love to see what can be done with that.
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responding to the original post:
DEAL WITH IT! recalling in BW how P is the race that is lacked in air tech until late game?
More over, i dont think adv in defend will help in sc2 since the speed of the game is way fast and make you go into an aggressive play style. Any P that is put into defensive position and still win mean that his enemy screw up at some point.
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personally, ive won a lot of gold level PvP's by pulling a nony style phoenix rush. i basically go for a delayed 3 gate push with harassment with the phoenixes and then use them to disable half the opponents army when i push. when i dont eff up my macro or die to some retarded cheese i didnt scout, it usually works out pretty well.
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On July 12 2010 13:45 T-Dub wrote:
Don't you also have to consider the way the Protoss can wall off certain expansions and the main? That also is a defensive side to the Protoss game and effective if done correctly
Walling off is the worst idea with Protoss in PvP and PvT. There's stalkers harassing your building and my personal favorite, 1 FF locking them in (or half their army out) while you destroy their wall. In PvT it's pretty obvious what the worry is: tanks.
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warp gates take away one key point of the defensive advantage other races have over protoss, in that they cannot gain extra supply rounds from army travel time
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I think this has more to do with protoss units being so strong than photon cannons being so weak, I mean photon cannons still work decently well against zerglings, but a unit like a zlot can take soo many hits from a cannon..
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I feel in the flow of the sc2 pv? protoss has to retain control over the game by being aggressive. A passive Protoss is an easily beaten Protoss. I dont have any explanation, just feels this way to me
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Blistering sands has an incredibly defendable choke.
Other than that, good post. I agree with it, but I think we need to wait a bit to give judgement.
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I know day9 did a daily about when to expand, and it touched on a few things that would help here.
The first is to expand after you take an advantage. If you skirmish in the center of the map and kill three stalkers, you can pressure with a slightly bigger army or you can expand safely. In this case, 3 stalkers means they won't be able to attack you back right away, but I doubt that that kind of difference will let you commit to an all out win strategy.
There's also the decision of whether or not you steal an expansion. Sometimes army size won't matter because of a choke point, certain unit composition, or just going out on a limb and trying to take back a game by macroing up and being vulnerable. Sentries can really help delay combat until you get the benefit of an expansion, and if you can do drops it really forces someone to go on the defensive when they may have the army advantage.
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Yeah I'm not seeing much reason to try expanding in PvP except on LT. Even then, you better be in opposite corners. I kept a guy locked in his base with Blinkers and a Warp Prism and got a huge economic lead with a full expansion set up, but it didn't make a damn bit of difference when he ended up ahead in Collossus count and just steamrolled over me.
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I'm not on my home comp atm, but I have an awesome replay that really showcases the effectiveness of defensive walling for protoss. I spotted some guy doing a stalker/immo build on kulas ravine, so I expected an easy win by countering with mass chargelots. To my surprise, he grabbed his natural, and as we all know, has 2 entrances, making it a really crappy choke. Thinking my army to be favored between the composition and the fact that he had spent money expanding, i pushed, only to find 3 pylons per entrance with a wall of stalkers behind them. Only 1 chargelot could fight at once per entrance, and I had to retreat. I followed up with some stalkers to take out the pylons, only to find collossus now wrecking my shit from the safety of the wall. I lost this game horribly. I don't think that a wall off is always appropriate (VR for example), but it can definitely help.
Not that this gives P an equal defensive ability, but still.
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Protoss is the race that has the greatest Offensive Advantage, so much so that it can even outweigh another race's def. advantage. With blink stalker able to get in almost anywhere and warp prisms you can base in his base so much easier than zerg or terran. I also disagree that cannons are a 'sideways' tech... because you NEED a forge to upgrade all your ground units - and odds are you will have quite a few of them.
But I view it like Toss are the mainly aggressive race and if you play them defensively you just do not get the full effect from them.
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EPT
