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I've started using the 8 pylon vs every race, and for the sake of diversifying my build I'd really like some input. As I see really good players building it at 9 an 10 and virtually never 8.
I started using a PvP build I picked up from Tozar where you basically rush warp tech with 4 gate and use some unlucky probe to pylon the enemies base.
Tozar builds his pylon at 10, and usually goes straight into the gateway. I usually build the pylon at 8, boost 2 probes, then get a gate.
Since Tozar is a better player than I, I can only wonder what I am missing. My first main question is: do you get the inital 10 gate at around the same time? Or could his build even be faster?
Basically, what I'm trying to find out, is the fastest, least safest way to warp tech, and I have a hunch the 8 pylon is NOT the best way to do it, but I don't know.
Please enlighten me
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there's a thread somewhere here that shows pretty conclusively that 8 pylon sucks. I used to love 8 pylon too just because it felt so good to use chronoboost as soon as possible, but if you load up the QXC build order tester and play with it for awhile you'll see pretty quickly that it's inferior to 9 pylon.
10 pylon is the fastest way to get early zealot pressure but at the cost of a weaker economy. I'm familiar with the build you're talking about but I've always gone 9 pylon when I do it. Personally I think 10 pylon is mostly good for early 2 gate pressure, like in PvZ when you want to harass with 1 or 2 zealots.
The best way to know for sure would be to load up the build order tester and try it yourself. I would do it but I'm at work 
EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say is that 10 gate seems to be best at getting units out quickly. The build you're talking about isn't about getting units quickly so much as it's about getting tech quickly. Therefor I think the economy of 9 pylon is better suited for this build.
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Is there a way to load up Starcraft 2 that I'm missing? I'm fiending man, I'd love to try this stuff out. Can we even watch replays still somehow? I'd love to know.
I sort of got this inflated opinion of myself making it into diamond league at first. And I defended the 8 pylon SO hard with really nothing but a solid win record, but after watching so much I'm pretty convinced I just made a bad strat work.
I just wonder about the 9 pylon cause I want to boost ASAP and get the gate at 10, so I use my first boost after the gateway is paid for. Seems late to me, but Qxc and Tester blow me out of the water so I'd love to see what went on there, and if boosting my first two probes is as useless as you would imply, then I really need to change it up.
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Just drag and drop the starcraft map file onto the regular shortcut icon and it will play. Alternatively you can open it in the map editor and hit Test Map. Drag and drop works for replays too, but for some reason the more recent replays don't work right.
I think that if you're going to gate on 10 then you should pylon on 10 as well. Pylon on 9 does delay your 10th probe just a little bit, especially when walling your choke, so there's no reason to get the pylon early if you're not going to make that 11th probe until after starting your gateway. I still don't recommend going 10gate though, because even though it will get you warp tech a little earlier I think that the econ hit will make your warp-in less effective. You have to consider that for the cheese to be successful you need 4 gateways, warpgate tech, ~4 extra pylons, and an economy strong enough to continually warp in units. I just don't think that faster warpgate tech is worth the damage to the economy - although this is just a feeling, I'd love to test it more.
I also feel that if you do go 10pylon/gate, you may as well cb on 8 just to get the last two probes out faster. I can't see any reason why you wouldn't.
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On June 14 2010 03:23 Chronocide wrote:
I also feel that if you do go 10pylon/gate, you may as well cb on 8 just to get the last two probes out faster. I can't see any reason why you wouldn't.
That's the part I'm stuck on most. I can't CB RIGHT as I hit the 9th probe unless I cut long enough for a pylon first. However, I think you're right in that the hit to my econ might take too much away from the initial army. I just wish 9 pylon didn't mean that I had to get gate later than 10.
I would disagree in calling this a cheese as it's more of a rush/early timed push. I only say that because in the last definition of cheese I read, it stated cheese is something that can win you the game if not detected. So if someone doesn't know about your 7 pool/reaper proxy/gate proxy, it will likely win.
When I watched Tozar perform this strat, he beat very skilled players. He beat Huk, and over 3 occasions he beat this guy named somethingTemplar, he beat him 3 times in a row using the same strat, he even TOLD him "I'm doing the same thing I did last game." and he still won convincingly 2 more times. Part of this is because there is an undeniable disparity between pros and diamond league, but even when I do it, my base is always 100% scouted by the time warp research finishes.
That's really what seperates this strat from most cheese. You can see it coming, but it doesn't matter. It seems like you need the initial probe to survive until warpgate research is finished, but you don't. While a hit to your econ is NOT a part of the cheese definition, I believe it also defines most all early game cheeses. Building a proxy barrack with reapers at 7 SCVs obviously cripples the hell out of your economy. supporting 4 gates with 20 probes and counting isn't as cheesy.
EDIT: However, Tozar himself calls this cheese. So hah at me.
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Wasting 3-4sec of chronoboost is not a big deal. It is more economically beneficial if you chrono the 9th and 10th probes instead of saving it because you don't want to waste it, so why not use it?
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8 pylon, besides being worse economically, is not as good as 9 pylon especially when you are trying to mass up an early army for a rush since you are using a chronoboost that could be used for your army. Besides, 9 pylon doesn't mean that you're definitely gating later than 10. In fact, 9pylon 10 gate lines up relatively well.
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If nexus had only 25 energy then fretting over using CB efficiently would be much more productive. Nobody is arguing that using CB earlier rather than later is good, but it's not like it goes to waste. 
As for the question of cheese, I think this is getting off topic but whatever Maybe I did misspeak because you're right that it's not like you are completely crippled afterwards, however if the big warp-in fails you will be very far behind. There are plenty of chances to abort the warp-in, but not without falling far behind on food. Maybe it's cheesish? I guess the reason why I think of it as cheese is because the only good outcome is to win the game outright.
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It feels like using chronoboost that early is a waste since you aren't really getting any more workers out in the long run. Also, if you are going 10 gate, it is best to go 10 pylon as well, just to get that extra probe mining a little sooner. Otherwise, go 9 pylon. It is important that you maintain probe production even after your chrono has dissipated. If you chrono out two probes really quick and leave the nexus idle for a while, you haven't really done anything but waste energy. You could've been building the probes at a slower rate yet still have same worker count. The same goes for unnecessarily cutting probes then chronoing probes.
Just don't go 8 pylon.
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))
Thank you all for your input, especially Tozar, because I used a strat I got from you as reference, never thought you yourself would comment. Many thanks.
So just to clarify, I should 9 pylon when I'm going for a standard timing push build (3 gate/robo) and 10 pylon for earlier tier 1.5 for proxy pylons?
Or would it be easier to say, 9 pylon when you expect to double gas for a more drawn out game, and 10 pylon when you think you can win with early gate aggresion?
I'm sorry if this is going overboard, because I technically had my question answered, but good answers make for more questions sometimes.
One thing is for sure, I will never 8 pylon again.
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8 pylon slows everything down for sure.
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On June 14 2010 05:44 Tozar wrote:If you chrono out two probes really quick and leave the nexus idle for a while, you haven't really done anything but waste energy.
Not true - imagine two Protoss players who build 4 probes and then stop. One player uses CB for the last two probes and the other player doesn't. The CBing player will always be slightly ahead of the player who didn't, because his probes got out 50% faster than the other player. It's true that in a real game it means your nexus will be idle longer, but I think it's a fallacy to look at that and deduce that that the CB was wasted.
As long as CB is used on any action that is progressing, it's not wasted.
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there is never reason to 8 pylon
10 pylon gets gate and units out fastest
9 pylon with 11, 12 or 13 gate is eco builds
in regards to the tozar 4 gate rush, he 10 pylon 10 gates in order to get CC asap so he can start the research
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On June 14 2010 08:00 Chronocide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 05:44 Tozar wrote:If you chrono out two probes really quick and leave the nexus idle for a while, you haven't really done anything but waste energy. Not true - imagine two Protoss players who build 4 probes and then stop. One player uses CB for the last two probes and the other player doesn't. The CBing player will always be slightly ahead of the player who didn't, because his probes got out 50% faster than the other player. It's true that in a real game it means your nexus will be idle longer, but I think it's a fallacy to look at that and deduce that that the CB was wasted. As long as CB is used on any action that is progressing, it's not wasted.
I mean you're essentially wasting like 1/4th of a chronoboost. You might gain a few mineral advantage for a minute but you fall behind on probes almost immediately after,
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i also 8 pylon/10gate or 8 pylon/12gate
it just feels so much cleaner to not have to wait and constantly make probes
i can chrono 2 probes n then keep making probes but yes its inferior you get less minerals and even a slower gateway compared to 9 pylon or 10 pylon but ill do some more testing as ive only tsted it a few patches back
it just feels so good lol
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On June 14 2010 08:00 Chronocide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 05:44 Tozar wrote:If you chrono out two probes really quick and leave the nexus idle for a while, you haven't really done anything but waste energy. Not true - imagine two Protoss players who build 4 probes and then stop. One player uses CB for the last two probes and the other player doesn't. The CBing player will always be slightly ahead of the player who didn't, because his probes got out 50% faster than the other player. It's true that in a real game it means your nexus will be idle longer, but I think it's a fallacy to look at that and deduce that that the CB was wasted. As long as CB is used on any action that is progressing, it's not wasted.
Think of it this way, two players make three probes. One chronoboosts immediately and gets two probes out ASAP. The other wait and saves his chronoboost. Both players decide to make zealots. The first player cannot start his next probe because he doesn't have enough minerals, the other hasn't finished his second probe yet so it isn't an issue. By the time the first player gets enough minerals to start his next probe, the second player's second probe has finished, and he also has enough minerals.
So both players essentially have the same thing, except the first player has maybe 5-10 minerals more from the second probe being out sooner, and the second player has 25 energy for a chronoboost.
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I like to go 8 pylon vs T so I can get my gateway and core faster and so I won't take as much damage from any reaper rushes.
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It really is incredibly simple...
If you want to gate on 10, 10pylon
If you want to gate on 12/13, 9 pylon.
10 pylon is better than 8 pylon (for 10 gating) because you should use the chrono when you're at 9 and your probe is half way done, its pretty obvious why doing this(never cutting probes at all till 10) compared to building the pylon on 8 (resulting in a rather long probe cut), then chrono boosting the next 2 probes right as they start, ends up with 10pylon getting your 9th and 10th probe out quicker. You end up with 150 pretty much right as the pylon finishes, so it doesn't delay your gateway at all, if anything it would be a tiny bit quicker because you had those 2 probes mining a tiny bit quicker than compared to 8 pylon, giving you the 150 minerals quicker.
9 pylon is better for 12/13 gate because you have much less time where probes aren't producing compared to 8pylon/10pylon, making your economy overall better for those situations.
edit: I am actually pretty amazed at the amount of people saying they 8 pylon, whilst it might feel 'smoother', it's definitely not better :o
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There is almost no situation where 8pylon would be a good decision. Go for 9 or 10.
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Just as a side-note as i dotn wish to create a thread,
If one is trying to go double gate early zealot cheese/push/opening w/e you wanna call it (people always say its cheese but its not usually all in, day9 does it when he played FE doesnt he?
My questions about double gate are:
If youre looking to just flat out win the game with double gate early zealots, what is the optimum supply to build the pylon, and 2 gateways on?
I've seen people double gatign as late as 12 and 14, while others are 10 pylon, 10 gate and 10 gating.
Anyone done some testing to see which is best? Which is best from a 2 gate into forge into nexus build, which is best to just win the game right there? is it best to pylon and 9 for the better eco and gate slightly later? is it best to 10 pylon? I would like some opinions on the matter
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this just like a zerg goes for overlord before he reaches 9 supply in BW, it will put you BEHIND a little bit but your gate will come out earlier with your 1st zealot. But after that, you will slowly fall behind since the future probes will be delayed when u use minerals for gate and zealot
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On June 14 2010 11:18 Reignyo wrote:Just as a side-note as i dotn wish to create a thread, If one is trying to go double gate early zealot cheese/push/opening w/e you wanna call it (people always say its cheese but its not usually all in, day9 does it when he played FE doesnt he? My questions about double gate are: If youre looking to just flat out win the game with double gate early zealots, what is the optimum supply to build the pylon, and 2 gateways on? I've seen people double gatign as late as 12 and 14, while others are 10 pylon, 10 gate and 10 gating. Anyone done some testing to see which is best? Which is best from a 2 gate into forge into nexus build, which is best to just win the game right there? is it best to pylon and 9 for the better eco and gate slightly later? is it best to 10 pylon? I would like some opinions on the matter
10 pylon 10 gate 10 gate is the more/most all in version and has the bestt chance of winning outright. However if the zealot rush fails you are usually quite behind economically and will struggle in the mid game.
Testers recent build (that is REALLY strong, he took idra 3-0 with this in the recent series they played, Ive won about 80% of games using this against high level zergs)
9 pylon 13 gate 15 gate, chronoing the nexus once for you eleventh and twelth probe, pylon on 14/15(I can't remember - basically when u can afford it) and cutting probes at 16 to get the zealot, then resuming probes again, build a pylon at 18 and chrono your 2nd and 3rd zealots (which should start aprox at the same time) as well as your 4th and 5th zealots, gets 5 zealots in their face really early for really nice pressure whilst barely cutting probes and allowing you to expand whenever your prefer (personally I do after my first 5).
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(edit on iPhone is fucked)
I suggest you play around with 13 15 gates in yabot to get it down, but against ling only defence it forces a LOT of lavaa into lings very early, and even High level zergs have a rough time getting the right amount of defence against it, if he opts for roach defense you can even opt to transition into a 4 gate stalker army after your initialy zealots (instead of expanding) which can be incredibly difficult for zergs as well as they don't get the opportunity to pump drones in the early-early game to have the income to pump roaches for the zealot stalker army, just make sure you engage lings with the zealots and try to keep the stalkers focussing on roaches, don't just a move and have lings flank your stalkers whilst zealots are fairy tapping roaches.
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Dont ever use a CB before you finish your first pylon, it's just a waste. CBing something just to follow it up with idle time is a complete waste...
CB shaves 10 secs off building time over a 30 sec period. Pretty significant when you are continue building afterwards, its almost insignificant if you follow it up with idle time though.
People who CB on 8 for example just don't get it. Your 9th and 10th pylon will be out slightly faster netting you about 10-15 minerals. That hardly matters for your timing on the rest. CBing after the pylon finishes means a long boost in probes though as you don't follow up with idle time then which can easily mean hundreds of minerals over the course of a game.
If you go 10 gate you're better off saving the CB's for your gate or probe production AFTER the first pylon finishes... For the rest what everyone said is right
9 pylon for eco builds
10 pylon if you want to go 10 gate.
All other builds suck as 8 pylon is strictly worse then 9 pylon in basically everything.
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EPT
