EPT[H] PvT with Siege Tanks - Page 3
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Voodo0
Germany25 Posts
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Kajean
United States20 Posts
I need to get some practice in against Ghost Mech. or watch some pros deal with it | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On June 03 2010 03:50 Kajean wrote: It seems that no matter what Protoss does, if the Terran does well placed EMPs, Immortals, Motherships, and High Templars will are be rendered useless and the push will fail. Read what I said about the mothership, I don't know if what you are saying is actually the case. If you engage when the Terran is away from their Xel'Naga tower, I think you stand a very good chance of getting a mass recall off. Especially because it works instantly, the second you use it, the units disappear and are in teleportation limbo. | ||
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gdroxor
United States639 Posts
The only time I win PvT when they make a lot of siege tanks is when I do a fairly early timing push and contain them to one base. I found that doing a gas steal is definitely worth it when you expect this sort of build - delaying gas delays those first few tanks and may give you a slight upper hand. | ||
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Kajean
United States20 Posts
On June 03 2010 03:55 gdroxor wrote: I found that the first timing push of 1-3 tanks and marines is pretty easy to take down with a mix of gateway units and phoenixes. After that it gets tough. The only time I win PvT when they make a lot of siege tanks is when I do a fairly early timing push and contain them to one base. I found that doing a gas steal is definitely worth it when you expect this sort of build - delaying gas delays those first few tanks and may give you a slight upper hand. The problem I have with early phoenixes is that I'm pretty certain you would have to have already been going phoenixes for the plan to work. You can't get scouting done on a Terran that obliterates all your probes before they can see anything while they can comfortably scan your base and see everything (assuming you didn't hide any tech somewhere). This makes it so you can't adapt to what they're doing and go phoenixes because you need to do it if you're going to try for an early attack, it seems like you just have to get lucky. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On June 03 2010 04:08 Kajean wrote: The problem I have with early phoenixes is that I'm pretty certain you would have to have already been going phoenixes for the plan to work. You can't get scouting done on a Terran that obliterates all your probes before they can see anything while they can comfortably scan your base and see everything (assuming you didn't hide any tech somewhere). This makes it so you can't adapt to what they're doing and go phoenixes because you need to do it if you're going to try for an early attack, it seems like you just have to get lucky. True, but opening with 2 warpgates + phoenixes is very safe against most every terran opening. The first phoenix will give you a free and easy look at what the terran is doing and then you can adjust accordingly. | ||
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hejakev
Sweden518 Posts
On June 03 2010 04:41 xDaunt wrote: True, but opening with 2 warpgates + phoenixes is very safe against most every terran opening. The first phoenix will give you a free and easy look at what the terran is doing and then you can adjust accordingly. I've been scouting with a hallucinated phoenix, then I know whether I want phoenixes or voidrays | ||
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
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Phoenix_XY
56 Posts
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TriniMasta
United States1323 Posts
or mix in a couple of void rays to piss him off, but Thors will counter that xD EDIT: Make sure zealot have charge =O | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Otherwise you have your heavy gateway army to fend off the early infantry push. The main thing to watch closely is his army comp so you can adjust your comp accordingly b/c if you don't have the right mix of gateway units you can get steamrolled. I have not found a fast stargate very effective anymore with all the infantry pushes I've been seeing lately, but a transition into stargate later on to supplement your heavy gateway army is still viable. I usually end up going this route if I see tanks and they hole up pretty good. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On June 03 2010 05:57 Parodoxx wrote: Ok I have had great luck with use of the phoenix against terran siege. with just 4 or 5 flying around with your army its easy to swoop into the back and quickly lift up all his siege tanks well your ground army goes to work. the beauty of this is if you get them quickly enough you can grab his first tank before he pushes out of his base as well as harass his mineral line well you happily expand. If he happens to mass viking behind them them this could be a problem, if you let it happen, keep up on your scouting and try to snipe viking as they are coming out (your phoenix will be coming out before his viking) other then that play defensively and dont rush into a battle just because wait for good position. On June 03 2010 07:41 Phoenix_XY wrote: One build I was completely destroyed by, as a terran against protoss, was a Forge FE on blistering sands into 4gate Blink Stalkers. My opponent was so fast at getting mass stalkers and I chose to push him just as I saw his transfer of probes to destroy the FE and actually lost to over 15 stalkers blinking around my seiged tanks and then into my base through the backdoor. Don't know if its particularily viable in other maps, but it is certainly a possibility some toss players can try. Dealing with early siege tanks isn't a problem. A Protoss utilizing blink stalkers and immortals can hold off a Terran who goes a siege tank style of play well in to mid-game. The problem is when they get a certain amount of siege tanks (~15), which is impossible to break with a Protoss ground army. Compounding this problem is that vikings beat Protoss air as well, so once a Terran has a high enough supply, you cannot touch their army. Every combination of units has proved futile, and given sensor towers, it's very, very hard to flank, and even when you do, you only do moderately well. It's not difficult to gain an economic advantage versus a turtling Terran, but it doesn't matter how many bases you take, because when they do push out, you can't touch their force, that is the issue. In BW, between stasis, zealot drops, and mine drags, you could damage the Terran army, even when maxed. It was difficult, and a 200/200 vs 200/200 battle would go in the Terrans favour, but you could whittle them down with good attacks and use your superior economy to keep throwing units at them until they broke. Combine that with recalls and counter-attacking expansions, and that was late-game PvT in a nutshell. Now, mothership mass recall on top of the Terran ground force (or simply close to the tank force) results in a respectable amount of damage, you can take out 2/3 or 3/4 of a Terran's tank army this way. Vikings will take down a mothership quickly however, and a ghost EMP would make your attack futile. However, if you bring in the mothership after distracting the Terran, or you make sure they have no other vision when you move in (away from their sensor towers and xel'naga towers; AKA, they are attacking you), then your chances of getting off a decent mass recall goes up substantially, I have to do more testing to be sure, and I plan on doing that later, but just realize what the actual problem is. It's not that tanks are too hard to kill in small numbers, it's that their exponential power growth along with viking air domination makes late-game ridiculous for the Protoss. | ||
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Kcid
4 Posts
i can also strongly vouche for blink stalkers against tanks if your build can accommodate it, though it is a ton of resources. obviously same for chargelots. i feel like you'd be spreading yourself thin by relying to heavily on gateway tech | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
On June 03 2010 03:46 Voodo0 wrote: immortals in PvT are just for taking the first tank shots....if they reach the combat range of the terran ball they die instantly.... they just have to soak the first few shots. This is exactly why immortals are terrible. They are a waste of resources, range of 5, by the time they reach the death ball, they are dead before doing much. So yep, just meatshield for tank fire to allow zealots to engage. SOO... why not just get hallucination, make fake immortals (hardened shield works!) and achieve the same result without the huge expenditure, allowing for a bigger or more diverse army. Nobody ever uses hallucination, yet it's such a good & cheap ability. FF or guardian shield is useless vs mech. Use that energy for fake meatshields instead. | ||
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johngalt90
United States357 Posts
In BW, stasis, mine drags, zealot bombs, etc. all helped you whittle down their army. This isn't even half as effective in SC2. Try any combination of army against a maxed or near maxed Terran army. Not only will you lose, but you won't do any damage whatsoever, you will kill a few tanks if that. You would have to sacrifice a full army multiple, multiple times to finally weaken the Terran army to the point where you can kill it with a final assault. Even then, that would only work if you were able to fully take out their entire reinforcement process. to comment on this there are not spider mines anymore the terran player doesnt have something to wall off his tank line which is what imo made mech such a nitemare in bw. i will conceed two things though the protoss doesnt have arbiters (and even if they did ghost having emp would nullify them) and reaver and zealot bombiing dont exist anymore. so we do have fewer tools. now lets examine imo current zvp which can be similiar because the collossus is pretty much the same role as the siege tank if not better in many ways. once you have 5-6 collossus the protoss bll is almost unstoppable against zerg unti compositions (the corruptor is limited in the same way phoenixes are and neural parasite is a cute little trick but the infestor gets dropped way too fast) so zerg is like omg how am i supposed to win against a ball that terminates my army and the answer is mobility.zerg utilizes its mobility to achieve victory the same way you should be in pvt. if you harassed correctly the terran wont be able to get that deathball and it will stay manageable just keep the pressure. the toss are a race wth a lot of powerful single units and if you dont pressure you wont win (passive macro seems to favor the zerg and terran. my final thought is the pvt matchup is too tight right now i agree with many people on the forum that terran can afford many more mistakes. i think a few tweaks could be made but a lot of the forum qq has been imo from people who think in starcraft 2 you build units and 1a. harrasment works if you have a replay where you harassed and contained (and didnt forget to macro) and he still lost i would like to see it because i fully believe that mobility> terran mech. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
I'm actually still trying to find a counter to pheonix that doesn't involve going back to the boring bioball. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On June 03 2010 15:31 link0 wrote: Pheonix builds with decent micro absolutely RAPES tank builds. It makes me cry =[ I'm actually still trying to find a counter to pheonix that doesn't involve going back to the boring bioball. They only rape tank builds during the early and mid game. Once the terran gets a mass of vikings to support his tanks, the phoenixes aren't worth much. | ||
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Voodo0
Germany25 Posts
Still... to win this MU, a clear makro advantage is necessary. I go for a contain with Ninja Build, get as many expos as possible... and if the terran is finally able to break the contain, wear him down with a better economy and faster production capability. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On June 04 2010 00:10 Voodo0 wrote: Terran just needs a bunch of marienes to protect his tank. Thanks to theire low price and the reactor, a critical number which destroys every phenix nearly instant, can be get fast. So the Tanks wont stay lifted long enough to come close enough with your Groundforce. Still... to win this MU, a clear makro advantage is necessary. I go for a contain with Ninja Build, get as many expos as possible... and if the terran is finally able to break the contain, wear him down with a better economy and faster production capability. Marines actually don't do that well against phoenixes because AI autotargets ground units instead of the phoenixes. As long as the protoss coordinates his attack well, the phoenixes won't die. I've yet to see a terran player focus-fire my phoenixes. Even if he did, then he'd get chewed up by my zealot/sentry/stalker force. | ||
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Voodo0
Germany25 Posts
It would be terrific to know how to execute a strat which ends PvTs a little bit faster  . ATM I dont have much problems winning the MU, but the games took nearly always 20-30 minutes. Sometimes fun, but even Terran players who are much badder then me took me this long to beat  | ||
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