ZvZ Degenerate into Muta/Ling - Page 2

On May 14 2010 22:37 shiftY803 wrote:
Seriously though, maybe the ultra high-level plat players lose with hydras versus mutaling, but lower level players just don't have the APM/execution to pull it off. I play against muta/ling often, and hydras never fail to seal the deal in my favor. I am not saying muta/ling is weaker than hydra, just that in the hands of a weaker player, it doesn't work well.

On May 14 2010 22:33 denzelz wrote:


That's what I've tried to do too but when you move out with the hydras, the sheer amount of speedlings plus the mutas that they bring back owns hydras. Maybe this is an issue of macro but when the opp. has taken a third along with complete map control, it's really hard to play in this position and try to macro up on 2 bases.

On May 14 2010 22:47 e.soul[gm] wrote:

reading the strategy forums for bw or sc2 you have to realize that half of the advice doesn't really pertain to lower level players due to mechanics i'd say. sorta suxx for copper kids

On May 17 2010 17:22 Necrosjef wrote:
At 1500 Zerg I rarely see Ling > Muta, so easily countered by 1 base Roaches even in this patch. After 2 larva spews of roaches or even 3 larva spews so you have 10-15 roaches then move out its usually lights out unless he has made like a million spine crawlers which you should have scouted anyway. If he does that just expand and throw down a few spore crawlers then go hydras or use the extra gas from your expand to out Muta him.

I had problems beating Ling > Muta before in other patches but once you get that critical number of what seems to be around 10 roaches lings really seem very ineffective.

On May 18 2010 05:56 baconbits wrote:



Ovie scouts + control a watch tower or two.
Move 20+ speedlings off to side of map, out of sight.
Wait for roaches to leave enemy base
Run speedlings in and kill everything before roaches can move anywhere to do anything

roaches are crap until lair upgrades, far too immobile unless you want to camp inside your base and give up map control

On May 18 2010 06:58 FabledIntegral wrote:
I find personally that mutaling dies to Roach/Hydra/Infestor quite easily (actually can't recall a single game I've lost ot it yet), simply because one stray infestor fungal can capture the mutas. And if they go speedlings and I went roaches, my econ is usually a ton better. Miles ahead.

P.S. This was my experience before the Roach supply nerf, which when going this strat after, I was annihilated by speedlings simply because I couldn't produce enough roaches due to new larvae constraints from additional ovies and the extra cost.

On May 18 2010 07:00 Azarkon wrote:


The problem is surviving until infestors + hydras. Infestors + hydras require you to lair early and a speedling player will typically lair earlier than a roaching player, meaning his mutas might be out before your infestors + hydras reach critical mass, in which case it's an uphill battle.

Having said that, I have seen hydra builds work against mutaling so it's not a lost cause. It's just not a counter, either.

On May 14 2010 22:33 denzelz wrote:


That's what I've tried to do too but when you move out with the hydras, the sheer amount of speedlings plus the mutas that they bring back owns hydras. Maybe this is an issue of macro but when the opp. has taken a third along with complete map control, it's really hard to play in this position and try to macro up on 2 bases.

On May 18 2010 07:23 DefMatrixUltra wrote:


This is the one thing in the thread I've seen that tries honestly to refute hydra > mutaling. Everyone else is just talking about magic or is so far beyond my level of play that my head would spin.

But I'd say that with proper scouting and good Zergling positioning, 5-6 hydras behind Zerglings on a ramp (even a large-ish "ramp" like the one in Scrap Station or just a large choke) can kill an unbelievable amount of Speedlings.

If a mutaling player is able to outmacro a hydraling player, you are doing something wrong. A fast speedling build will gain map control - very true. Your response should be to tech up to Lair while plopping down a Baneling nest at a good time (the timing is difficult to work out on some maps, but try to do your best with overlord positioning). The banelings should be out in time for you to safely take your expansion (i.e. there's no possible way it could get killed off/you will die).

Make just a tiny handful of Banelings for defense as you build up Hydraling numbers. If the other player goes for Muta, you will be well ahead because he won't be able to afford gas for Banelings.

Here are a few things that will utterly destroy Zergling attacks:

a) One baneling on a ramp. Another baneling a bit behind that baneling. This can wipe out ~20 speedlings if they try to run up. This applies to small chokes as well.

b) Two banelings in the mineral line. One at each end of the "semi-circle". Zerglings will not dare attack this if they are smart.

Just a handful of banelings can insure that you will not instantly lose the game to speedlings. With this defense setup, your hydra numbers (backed up by defensively positioned speedlings) should slowly build until you have enough to basically win the game.

When you move out, just make sure you carefully position your speedlings in front of hydras. You will decimate any army composition that can exist in ZvZ except speedling/hydra. If you carry one or two banelings with your roving army (this is equal to 1 hydralisk in gas), you can win battles against ridiculous numbers.

It's important to have a large enough hydralisk force before you move out. You need enough so that if you run into mass banelings, you can run your speedlings away and your hydras will crush the banelings before they get into range to do damage. This number seems to be around 10-12 but you can wait for 15 or so to be safe. The micro is difficult, but you will crush their army if you do it right.

I just don't see how mutas are even relevant in ZvZ.