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So before I got beta, I was really excited by all the news that ZvZ is going to be more diverse in SC2. Players are going to use more than just 2 units, involving roaches, ultras, higher tech units etc.
When I started playing the beta, I found most of this to be true. Most lower league players to use a mixture of ling/roach/hydra and I found macro to be much more important in this match up. 2 base builds are becoming more common and I liked that because it meant deeper and longer games. Roach burrow move and ultra nydus worms are not too uncommon strats.
Recently however, in higher level matchups (I'm only around 1200 Plat), I've found that more and more people are starting to use muta/ling. I've personally found that muta/ling to ling/hydra transition works really well against Terran as it contains them in one base while allowing expansions. Maybe the same concept is creeping into ZvZ.
I've found muta/ling to be very dominating in ZvZ. The heavy gas that mutas require are perfectly offset by pumping a huge amount of lings. While I could macro out equal numbers of roach/hydras, mutas offer much more mobility and again, contains me to 2 bases while the opp. is able to take a 3rd. Even ling/hydra is not exactly optimal against muta/ling. I've found that the only decent counter to this build is the use of infestors. Infestors + hydra/ling can potentially disable this build but it requires a lot of APM. It seems much easier to just go muta/ling.
So my point is that, because of the great synergy that muta + ling provides and considering that the counter -- infestor + hydra is very APM intensive, I can see that more and more ZvZ will gravitate towards ling + muta, especially with the recent nerf for roaches.
What do you guys think? Is this a good thing that ZvZ is back to where it started? Some thoughts on beating muta/ling?
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Well if you're interested in theory crafting I can see the ling + muta strat as not necessarily a bad development because it can grow to incorporate more units making it more effective.
Consider 2 zergs that both do muta + ling,
if one were to do muta + ling + baneling the opponent's lings are nullified giving the zerg that adds more unit diversity the advantage.
Similarly adding infester to muta + ling you can immobilize part of the opposing muta cloud forcing a battle where you want it.
So I think if muta + ling grows in popularity we'd quickly see it grow to using not just these two units making it not exactly a boring strat.
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It was mostly early game roach wars that ended within 9 minutes last patch, but at least a quarter of my zvzs my opponent went muta/ling.
I don't think it's a good thing that we're going back to the matchup working a lot like it did in bw and I expect it to become more common with patch 12. Banelings get overlooked too frequently in this matchup, and work very well vs muta/ling.
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it's entirely different because of the baneling countering lings and hydra (or especially hydra+infestor) countering muta
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hydra baneling-ling pretty much hard counters this due to cheaper costs and faster build... then I find it just degenerates into who can macro more lings better and faster
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United States889 Posts
I'm ~1500 platinum and I've played my fair share of ZvZ, and I haven't lost to muta/ling going hydras because hydras are just so strong against mutas, and their gas cost is considerably cheaper. if you creep up your main and nat, they're even fairly mobile. Yes, mutas do provide a lot of map control but imo you shouldn't be sinking all your gas into just mutas because a player sinking an equal amount of gas into hydras is going to roll those mutas, and if he makes some concessions for roaches, as he should against the lings, he's still going to come out ahead, especially if he upgrades.
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Calgary25997 Posts
Yea 1750 and never really experienced Mutaling at all....
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On May 14 2010 14:39 Chill wrote:
Yea 1750 and never really experienced Mutaling at all....
1875 and all I do is Mutaling....
+ Show Spoiler +
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United States7166 Posts
2100 and I can definitely say mutalisk are the key unit in zvz, this was even before patch 12. hydralisks are the only effective unit to kill mutalisks but are so extremely fragile and get raped easily by banelings that obviously greatly outrun them. the best hope for a hydra player is multiple infestors and really really good fungals, 1 fungal will kill banelings/zerglings on its own, but if the muta player does a really good flank and doesnt bring them in 1 giant blob (not hard to setup as muta player has 100% map control), fungal cant be enough. zerglings also do quite nice vs hydralisks as well. fungal also does great for the muta player as well vs mutalisks.
the mutalisk player with map control and excess minerals can easily outexpand the hydra player, and the hydra player always has to be concerned about defending his workers/overlords/buildings/queens from mutas as well
in last weekend's CraftCup, i played vs Dimaga round 1 and ZpuX round 2, these are 2 of the top zergs in europe if you didnt know. Dimaga and I both went 1 base muta, he opened a few roach into muta, i opened speedlings, we had a long zvz with mass muta/queens/lings/spines/spores/roaches. game vs ZpuX, we had identical 1 base fast muta builds (while going speedlings) and massed muta/ling/etc as well
so yeah most of the lower level zergs may not be going muta but that doesn't mean that much really
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I feel like I should add a replay to this thread.
This is the recent game that I played today. I def. have some macro and timings to work on but it basically shows how effective mutas are able to dance around hydras. I probably should have scouted for mutas much earlier, and been more aggressive with early hydras, but the fact that the mutas had map control made it hard for me to move out. My FG was able rather ineffective but it might be because of my own micro and lack of APM.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/5336
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I'm ~1500 platinum and I've played my fair share of ZvZ, and I haven't lost to muta/ling going hydrYea
1750 and never really experienced Mutaling at all....
1875 and all I do is Mutaling....
2100 and I can definitely say mutalisk are the key unit in zvz
That was awesome, can't stop laughing 
Need to say "pwned" ;p
I think mutaling is the key, not just because hydras fall to blings, its because mapcontrol. I'm at 1441 and hat a lot zvz recently, i always went mutaling and right now i'm at a 11 game winstreak. (Got the servers reset yesterday?)
Drimacus
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It's actually Muta/Baneling. Banelings kill the Hydras and Mutas clean up. Popular combo for fighting against this is Hydra/Roach/Infestor since fungal growths 1 shot Banelings and prevent them from getting up close. Splitting your Muta/Baneling into several groups helps a lot but its very touchy you can definitely lose badly if you miss micro. The advantage to Muta/Baneling is you'll always get your second expansion up before the Hydra builder.
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Zerg has only 1 counter to mass muta which is hydras and hydras of course are weak to banelings (and even muta/ling in general). Perhaps if they suddenly make corruptors not suck there might be a counter to mutas other than more mutas.
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On May 14 2010 19:54 Floophead_III wrote:
Perhaps if they suddenly make corruptors not suck there might be a counter to mutas other than more mutas.
Blasphemy! Corruptors must keep sucking so theyre only good against capital ships and colossi... As evidenced by the latest ability change.
Instead of being an AOE debuff like devourer which would suggest incorporating at least a few Corruptors into an air force, it remains a very niche unit so we can keep massin' those mutas. Wee.
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expand with overlord-creep & spores and muta-"map control" becomes less of an issue. people just build too few spores.
def-upgraded and clumped roaches still eat lings for breakfast - no, two-shotting them is only possible with +3 vs +0 upgrade, so why bother.
defensive upgrades also work wonders against the muta glaives and their ugly upgrade results. slightly better than offensive upgrades for hydras.
i also encountered nydus expansions on the asian server. as it generates creep, you can basically start static defenses (very popular there) right away, too. this functionality is ofc not limited to islands -.-
sry, but ZvZ is heavily corrupted by both old and new paradigms. especially the +1 attack upgrade has gotten out of control -.-
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I find the muta ling fights in sc2 really frustrating without scourage. There seems to be no way to catch up if your gas was slightly later.
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Maybe I'm just not very good, but I constantly lose to muta builds when I try to counter with hydra. They just are not mobile enough to defend two expansions on say, scrap station, even with creep and if you split them up one group will end up getting mobbed eventually. Meanwhile you're losing drones bit by bit all game and doing no damage whatsoever in response. I build spores, but eventually there's going to be more mutas than a couple spores can handle and he's going to smash 10 drones in a few seconds. I've been trying to use infestors, but it's difficult to keep them alive and get them to fire on target.
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On May 14 2010 20:32 onmach wrote:
Maybe I'm just not very good, but I constantly lose to muta builds when I try to counter with hydra. They just are not mobile enough to defend two expansions on say, scrap station, even with creep and if you split them up one group will end up getting mobbed eventually. Meanwhile you're losing drones bit by bit all game and doing no damage whatsoever in response. I build spores, but eventually there's going to be more mutas than a couple spores can handle and he's going to smash 10 drones in a few seconds. I've been trying to use infestors, but it's difficult to keep them alive and get them to fire on target.
honestly, if hes spending THAT much gas on mutas, you'll be able to outproduce him on hydra. few spores at each min line, few hydras with them pretty much nullifies that. then you can just a move him with your massive amount of hydras ^^
this is assuming you have good macro too, this too happens to me quite a bit
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nerfing roaches just ruins zvz. I been getting alot of 1 base ling + baneling only... If it goes for longer muta. So there is no point going hydra or roach anymore in zvz imo...
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On May 14 2010 22:21 e.soul[gm] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 20:32 onmach wrote:
Maybe I'm just not very good, but I constantly lose to muta builds when I try to counter with hydra. They just are not mobile enough to defend two expansions on say, scrap station, even with creep and if you split them up one group will end up getting mobbed eventually. Meanwhile you're losing drones bit by bit all game and doing no damage whatsoever in response. I build spores, but eventually there's going to be more mutas than a couple spores can handle and he's going to smash 10 drones in a few seconds. I've been trying to use infestors, but it's difficult to keep them alive and get them to fire on target. honestly, if hes spending THAT much gas on mutas, you'll be able to outproduce him on hydra. few spores at each min line, few hydras with them pretty much nullifies that. then you can just a move him with your massive amount of hydras ^^ this is assuming you have good macro too, this too happens to me quite a bit
That's what I've tried to do too but when you move out with the hydras, the sheer amount of speedlings plus the mutas that they bring back owns hydras. Maybe this is an issue of macro but when the opp. has taken a third along with complete map control, it's really hard to play in this position and try to macro up on 2 bases.
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Welllll... I'm rated 2500, and all I do is the Sicilian Defense, 1. e4 c5.
Wait, what game were we talking about again?
Seriously though, maybe the ultra high-level plat players lose with hydras versus mutaling, but lower level players just don't have the APM/execution to pull it off. I play against muta/ling often, and hydras never fail to seal the deal in my favor. I am not saying muta/ling is weaker than hydra, just that in the hands of a weaker player, it doesn't work well.
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On May 14 2010 22:37 shiftY803 wrote:
Seriously though, maybe the ultra high-level plat players lose with hydras versus mutaling, but lower level players just don't have the APM/execution to pull it off. I play against muta/ling often, and hydras never fail to seal the deal in my favor. I am not saying muta/ling is weaker than hydra, just that in the hands of a weaker player, it doesn't work well.
reading the strategy forums for bw or sc2 you have to realize that half of the advice doesn't really pertain to lower level players due to mechanics i'd say. sorta suxx for copper kids
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On May 14 2010 22:33 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 22:21 e.soul[gm] wrote:On May 14 2010 20:32 onmach wrote:
Maybe I'm just not very good, but I constantly lose to muta builds when I try to counter with hydra. They just are not mobile enough to defend two expansions on say, scrap station, even with creep and if you split them up one group will end up getting mobbed eventually. Meanwhile you're losing drones bit by bit all game and doing no damage whatsoever in response. I build spores, but eventually there's going to be more mutas than a couple spores can handle and he's going to smash 10 drones in a few seconds. I've been trying to use infestors, but it's difficult to keep them alive and get them to fire on target. honestly, if hes spending THAT much gas on mutas, you'll be able to outproduce him on hydra. few spores at each min line, few hydras with them pretty much nullifies that. then you can just a move him with your massive amount of hydras ^^ this is assuming you have good macro too, this too happens to me quite a bit That's what I've tried to do too but when you move out with the hydras, the sheer amount of speedlings plus the mutas that they bring back owns hydras. Maybe this is an issue of macro but when the opp. has taken a third along with complete map control, it's really hard to play in this position and try to macro up on 2 bases.
Or more importantly banelings will just tear through your entire hydra army pretty fast if you move off creep (and even possibly on creep, but you can micro better there). You'll probably want some roaches in your army to tank the banelings, speedlings, and mutas. They're just 2 pop now, it's not like they're completely useless.
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You could go hydra-baneling. Hydras to take care of the mutas, and banelings to take care of the speedlings and banelings.
Banelings are the best counter to banelings 
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im only gold, but i win the majority of my matches with muta ling. dont have a real build order for it though...
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At 1500 Zerg I rarely see Ling > Muta, so easily countered by 1 base Roaches even in this patch. After 2 larva spews of roaches or even 3 larva spews so you have 10-15 roaches then move out its usually lights out unless he has made like a million spine crawlers which you should have scouted anyway. If he does that just expand and throw down a few spore crawlers then go hydras or use the extra gas from your expand to out Muta him.
I had problems beating Ling > Muta before in other patches but once you get that critical number of what seems to be around 10 roaches lings really seem very ineffective.
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On May 14 2010 22:47 e.soul[gm] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 22:37 shiftY803 wrote:
Seriously though, maybe the ultra high-level plat players lose with hydras versus mutaling, but lower level players just don't have the APM/execution to pull it off. I play against muta/ling often, and hydras never fail to seal the deal in my favor. I am not saying muta/ling is weaker than hydra, just that in the hands of a weaker player, it doesn't work well. reading the strategy forums for bw or sc2 you have to realize that half of the advice doesn't really pertain to lower level players due to mechanics i'd say. sorta suxx for copper kids
most mid-high level platinum players also have very poor mechanics/multitasking ability. What he says applies to people far above copper
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When I notice someone is trying to mutaling I go straight from speedlings -> banelings and simply kill them before their lair is done.
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On May 17 2010 17:22 Necrosjef wrote:
At 1500 Zerg I rarely see Ling > Muta, so easily countered by 1 base Roaches even in this patch. After 2 larva spews of roaches or even 3 larva spews so you have 10-15 roaches then move out its usually lights out unless he has made like a million spine crawlers which you should have scouted anyway. If he does that just expand and throw down a few spore crawlers then go hydras or use the extra gas from your expand to out Muta him.
I had problems beating Ling > Muta before in other patches but once you get that critical number of what seems to be around 10 roaches lings really seem very ineffective.
Ovie scouts + control a watch tower or two.
Move 20+ speedlings off to side of map, out of sight.
Wait for roaches to leave enemy base
Run speedlings in and kill everything before roaches can move anywhere to do anything
roaches are crap until lair upgrades, far too immobile unless you want to camp inside your base and give up map control
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i think its muta ling baneling
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there are a couple things about beating muta as a roach user. First, you have to grab your 2nd base before mutas get out, and get a few spores up. From there, you've got to match his muta numbers with hydras and not overproduce, while producing drones and roaches. Then you have to get infestors. You will be on 2 bases and he will be on 3, but once you have this army he will not be able to beat it. Banelings/lings will die to your infestors like crazy. You can kill like 20 at a time with a fungal growth. Banelings should not hit your hydras.. fungal growth the banelings. From there you have to make sure you have enough hydra to kill the mutas and it's GG. So the army looks like... about 5 infestors, enough roaches to block a choke and maybe a little extra, and then a ton of hydras
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I think the problem is most people are talking end unit comp. I've found this too, as if somebody goes speedling and times it before hydra den or spire finishes you will win. Thats just with the 8 extra lings, plus, the all in speed nature of the build means you might have 12 more lings. Ofc, if they build spines, that changes things.
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I usually build 1 spine crawler in ZvZ. It's probably not the best investment, but I feel like it really helps dealing with lings/banelings in your base. Then again I'm usually the one trying to invest as little as I can so I can hit up mutas and win that way. Well unless my opponent FEs then it's speedling/baneling to try and crush his eco.
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On May 18 2010 05:56 baconbits wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 17:22 Necrosjef wrote:
At 1500 Zerg I rarely see Ling > Muta, so easily countered by 1 base Roaches even in this patch. After 2 larva spews of roaches or even 3 larva spews so you have 10-15 roaches then move out its usually lights out unless he has made like a million spine crawlers which you should have scouted anyway. If he does that just expand and throw down a few spore crawlers then go hydras or use the extra gas from your expand to out Muta him.
I had problems beating Ling > Muta before in other patches but once you get that critical number of what seems to be around 10 roaches lings really seem very ineffective. Ovie scouts + control a watch tower or two. Move 20+ speedlings off to side of map, out of sight. Wait for roaches to leave enemy base Run speedlings in and kill everything before roaches can move anywhere to do anything roaches are crap until lair upgrades, far too immobile unless you want to camp inside your base and give up map control
Pretty much. You don't have to win the vs. roach in battle if you kill his base before he kills yours. Speedlings are preferred at higher levels because of mobility. 20+ speedlings as stated here can easily surround and kill a few reinforcement roaches, go after the queen, the drones, etc. and clean out the enemy's base before sprinting back to defend your own. Even if they can't, the base trade usually ends with the roaching player losing because the speedling player has such map control and can avoid battle while he seeks out your hidden hatcheries, etc., whereas you can't do the same to his.
And if you don't attack with your roaches, you'll get rolled by mutas. It's as simple as that.
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I find personally that mutaling dies to Roach/Hydra/Infestor quite easily (actually can't recall a single game I've lost ot it yet), simply because one stray infestor fungal can capture the mutas. And if they go speedlings and I went roaches, my econ is usually a ton better. Miles ahead.
You never move out with Roaches before lair tech and ovie speed, you spend all your time defending speedlings. You build absolutely minimal Roaches while drone whoring. ZvZ *was* my best matchup as a result before the latest patch. If you sim citied correctly, you could beat 12 speedlings with 3 roaches and a queen in your mineral line (hatchery + pool + warren forms a wall) and an evo chamber would block at the natural (where you had more roaches anyways).
P.S. This was my experience before the Roach supply nerf, which when going this strat after, I was annihilated by speedlings simply because I couldn't produce enough roaches due to new larvae constraints from additional ovies and the extra cost.
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On May 18 2010 06:58 FabledIntegral wrote:
I find personally that mutaling dies to Roach/Hydra/Infestor quite easily (actually can't recall a single game I've lost ot it yet), simply because one stray infestor fungal can capture the mutas. And if they go speedlings and I went roaches, my econ is usually a ton better. Miles ahead.
P.S. This was my experience before the Roach supply nerf, which when going this strat after, I was annihilated by speedlings simply because I couldn't produce enough roaches due to new larvae constraints from additional ovies and the extra cost.
The problem is surviving until infestors + hydras. Infestors + hydras require you to lair early and a speedling player will typically lair earlier than a roaching player, meaning his mutas might be out before your infestors + hydras reach critical mass, in which case it's an uphill battle.
Having said that, I have seen hydra builds work against mutaling so it's not a lost cause. It's just not a counter, either.
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ZvZ is all about map control, denying enemy expansions and being able to outproduce. Lings do that well early game. While roaching up may protect you, a speedling opponent takes the map and 3 mins later will be putting out double the army production. Hydra infestor will beat muta hands down, but unless you are playing too defensively, speedlings will overrun hydras if you don't let them get a lot of them. just watch out for infestors and fungal growth (or end it before they can get em)
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On May 18 2010 07:00 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 06:58 FabledIntegral wrote:
I find personally that mutaling dies to Roach/Hydra/Infestor quite easily (actually can't recall a single game I've lost ot it yet), simply because one stray infestor fungal can capture the mutas. And if they go speedlings and I went roaches, my econ is usually a ton better. Miles ahead.
P.S. This was my experience before the Roach supply nerf, which when going this strat after, I was annihilated by speedlings simply because I couldn't produce enough roaches due to new larvae constraints from additional ovies and the extra cost. The problem is surviving until infestors + hydras. Infestors + hydras require you to lair early and a speedling player will typically lair earlier than a roaching player, meaning his mutas might be out before your infestors + hydras reach critical mass, in which case it's an uphill battle. Having said that, I have seen hydra builds work against mutaling so it's not a lost cause. It's just not a counter, either.
No not at all, I would always 14 hatch as my staple build. Surviving was quite easy, and you could tell what he was doing by putting an ovie at his natural and your other ovies on the routes where he was running (put all your ovies near his base essentially) to get ocmplete map awareness on what's happening (he has no anti-air except in his main so...). On maps like Desert Oasis you could even scout what he was doing easily with a slow ovie and not lose it, and react accordingly. If he stayed on one base speedling - he's all in and you need more roaches and less drone whoring (and your econ is nearly double his). If old reps work I'll try to find some and show how goddamn effective it was, at least around ~1750 Platinum.
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On May 14 2010 22:33 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 22:21 e.soul[gm] wrote:On May 14 2010 20:32 onmach wrote:
Maybe I'm just not very good, but I constantly lose to muta builds when I try to counter with hydra. They just are not mobile enough to defend two expansions on say, scrap station, even with creep and if you split them up one group will end up getting mobbed eventually. Meanwhile you're losing drones bit by bit all game and doing no damage whatsoever in response. I build spores, but eventually there's going to be more mutas than a couple spores can handle and he's going to smash 10 drones in a few seconds. I've been trying to use infestors, but it's difficult to keep them alive and get them to fire on target. honestly, if hes spending THAT much gas on mutas, you'll be able to outproduce him on hydra. few spores at each min line, few hydras with them pretty much nullifies that. then you can just a move him with your massive amount of hydras ^^ this is assuming you have good macro too, this too happens to me quite a bit That's what I've tried to do too but when you move out with the hydras, the sheer amount of speedlings plus the mutas that they bring back owns hydras. Maybe this is an issue of macro but when the opp. has taken a third along with complete map control, it's really hard to play in this position and try to macro up on 2 bases.
This is the one thing in the thread I've seen that tries honestly to refute hydra > mutaling. Everyone else is just talking about magic or is so far beyond my level of play that my head would spin.
But I'd say that with proper scouting and good Zergling positioning, 5-6 hydras behind Zerglings on a ramp (even a large-ish "ramp" like the one in Scrap Station or just a large choke) can kill an unbelievable amount of Speedlings.
If a mutaling player is able to outmacro a hydraling player, you are doing something wrong. A fast speedling build will gain map control - very true. Your response should be to tech up to Lair while plopping down a Baneling nest at a good time (the timing is difficult to work out on some maps, but try to do your best with overlord positioning). The banelings should be out in time for you to safely take your expansion (i.e. there's no possible way it could get killed off/you will die).
Make just a tiny handful of Banelings for defense as you build up Hydraling numbers. If the other player goes for Muta, you will be well ahead because he won't be able to afford gas for Banelings.
Here are a few things that will utterly destroy Zergling attacks:
a) One baneling on a ramp. Another baneling a bit behind that baneling. This can wipe out ~20 speedlings if they try to run up. This applies to small chokes as well.
b) Two banelings in the mineral line. One at each end of the "semi-circle". Zerglings will not dare attack this if they are smart.
Just a handful of banelings can insure that you will not instantly lose the game to speedlings. With this defense setup, your hydra numbers (backed up by defensively positioned speedlings) should slowly build until you have enough to basically win the game.
When you move out, just make sure you carefully position your speedlings in front of hydras. You will decimate any army composition that can exist in ZvZ except speedling/hydra. If you carry one or two banelings with your roving army (this is equal to 1 hydralisk in gas), you can win battles against ridiculous numbers.
It's important to have a large enough hydralisk force before you move out. You need enough so that if you run into mass banelings, you can run your speedlings away and your hydras will crush the banelings before they get into range to do damage. This number seems to be around 10-12 but you can wait for 15 or so to be safe. The micro is difficult, but you will crush their army if you do it right.
I just don't see how mutas are even relevant in ZvZ.
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On May 18 2010 07:23 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 22:33 denzelz wrote:On May 14 2010 22:21 e.soul[gm] wrote:On May 14 2010 20:32 onmach wrote:
Maybe I'm just not very good, but I constantly lose to muta builds when I try to counter with hydra. They just are not mobile enough to defend two expansions on say, scrap station, even with creep and if you split them up one group will end up getting mobbed eventually. Meanwhile you're losing drones bit by bit all game and doing no damage whatsoever in response. I build spores, but eventually there's going to be more mutas than a couple spores can handle and he's going to smash 10 drones in a few seconds. I've been trying to use infestors, but it's difficult to keep them alive and get them to fire on target. honestly, if hes spending THAT much gas on mutas, you'll be able to outproduce him on hydra. few spores at each min line, few hydras with them pretty much nullifies that. then you can just a move him with your massive amount of hydras ^^ this is assuming you have good macro too, this too happens to me quite a bit That's what I've tried to do too but when you move out with the hydras, the sheer amount of speedlings plus the mutas that they bring back owns hydras. Maybe this is an issue of macro but when the opp. has taken a third along with complete map control, it's really hard to play in this position and try to macro up on 2 bases. This is the one thing in the thread I've seen that tries honestly to refute hydra > mutaling. Everyone else is just talking about magic or is so far beyond my level of play that my head would spin. But I'd say that with proper scouting and good Zergling positioning, 5-6 hydras behind Zerglings on a ramp (even a large-ish "ramp" like the one in Scrap Station or just a large choke) can kill an unbelievable amount of Speedlings. If a mutaling player is able to outmacro a hydraling player, you are doing something wrong. A fast speedling build will gain map control - very true. Your response should be to tech up to Lair while plopping down a Baneling nest at a good time (the timing is difficult to work out on some maps, but try to do your best with overlord positioning). The banelings should be out in time for you to safely take your expansion (i.e. there's no possible way it could get killed off/you will die). Make just a tiny handful of Banelings for defense as you build up Hydraling numbers. If the other player goes for Muta, you will be well ahead because he won't be able to afford gas for Banelings. Here are a few things that will utterly destroy Zergling attacks: a) One baneling on a ramp. Another baneling a bit behind that baneling. This can wipe out ~20 speedlings if they try to run up. This applies to small chokes as well. b) Two banelings in the mineral line. One at each end of the "semi-circle". Zerglings will not dare attack this if they are smart. Just a handful of banelings can insure that you will not instantly lose the game to speedlings. With this defense setup, your hydra numbers (backed up by defensively positioned speedlings) should slowly build until you have enough to basically win the game. When you move out, just make sure you carefully position your speedlings in front of hydras. You will decimate any army composition that can exist in ZvZ except speedling/hydra. If you carry one or two banelings with your roving army (this is equal to 1 hydralisk in gas), you can win battles against ridiculous numbers. It's important to have a large enough hydralisk force before you move out. You need enough so that if you run into mass banelings, you can run your speedlings away and your hydras will crush the banelings before they get into range to do damage. This number seems to be around 10-12 but you can wait for 15 or so to be safe. The micro is difficult, but you will crush their army if you do it right. I just don't see how mutas are even relevant in ZvZ.
In this banelings opening into hydras that you are talking about, when do you research speed for your lings? I always find that there's an awkward period of time between when my opp. gets speed because he was planning for it and when I get speed because it's reactionary for me. Do you use first 100 gas for speed and the next 50 for banelings nest, then Lair?
I'm not dismissing your points, I think I could definitely use more banelings against Z but I was wondering the exact build and timing.
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Muta ling baneling = map control = more expands = better macro = profit
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On May 18 2010 09:28 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 07:23 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On May 14 2010 22:33 denzelz wrote:On May 14 2010 22:21 e.soul[gm] wrote:On May 14 2010 20:32 onmach wrote:
Maybe I'm just not very good, but I constantly lose to muta builds when I try to counter with hydra. They just are not mobile enough to defend two expansions on say, scrap station, even with creep and if you split them up one group will end up getting mobbed eventually. Meanwhile you're losing drones bit by bit all game and doing no damage whatsoever in response. I build spores, but eventually there's going to be more mutas than a couple spores can handle and he's going to smash 10 drones in a few seconds. I've been trying to use infestors, but it's difficult to keep them alive and get them to fire on target. honestly, if hes spending THAT much gas on mutas, you'll be able to outproduce him on hydra. few spores at each min line, few hydras with them pretty much nullifies that. then you can just a move him with your massive amount of hydras ^^ this is assuming you have good macro too, this too happens to me quite a bit That's what I've tried to do too but when you move out with the hydras, the sheer amount of speedlings plus the mutas that they bring back owns hydras. Maybe this is an issue of macro but when the opp. has taken a third along with complete map control, it's really hard to play in this position and try to macro up on 2 bases. This is the one thing in the thread I've seen that tries honestly to refute hydra > mutaling. Everyone else is just talking about magic or is so far beyond my level of play that my head would spin. But I'd say that with proper scouting and good Zergling positioning, 5-6 hydras behind Zerglings on a ramp (even a large-ish "ramp" like the one in Scrap Station or just a large choke) can kill an unbelievable amount of Speedlings. If a mutaling player is able to outmacro a hydraling player, you are doing something wrong. A fast speedling build will gain map control - very true. Your response should be to tech up to Lair while plopping down a Baneling nest at a good time (the timing is difficult to work out on some maps, but try to do your best with overlord positioning). The banelings should be out in time for you to safely take your expansion (i.e. there's no possible way it could get killed off/you will die). Make just a tiny handful of Banelings for defense as you build up Hydraling numbers. If the other player goes for Muta, you will be well ahead because he won't be able to afford gas for Banelings. Here are a few things that will utterly destroy Zergling attacks: a) One baneling on a ramp. Another baneling a bit behind that baneling. This can wipe out ~20 speedlings if they try to run up. This applies to small chokes as well. b) Two banelings in the mineral line. One at each end of the "semi-circle". Zerglings will not dare attack this if they are smart. Just a handful of banelings can insure that you will not instantly lose the game to speedlings. With this defense setup, your hydra numbers (backed up by defensively positioned speedlings) should slowly build until you have enough to basically win the game. When you move out, just make sure you carefully position your speedlings in front of hydras. You will decimate any army composition that can exist in ZvZ except speedling/hydra. If you carry one or two banelings with your roving army (this is equal to 1 hydralisk in gas), you can win battles against ridiculous numbers. It's important to have a large enough hydralisk force before you move out. You need enough so that if you run into mass banelings, you can run your speedlings away and your hydras will crush the banelings before they get into range to do damage. This number seems to be around 10-12 but you can wait for 15 or so to be safe. The micro is difficult, but you will crush their army if you do it right. I just don't see how mutas are even relevant in ZvZ. In this banelings opening into hydras that you are talking about, when do you research speed for your lings? I always find that there's an awkward period of time between when my opp. gets speed because he was planning for it and when I get speed because it's reactionary for me. Do you use first 100 gas for speed and the next 50 for banelings nest, then Lair? I'm not dismissing your points, I think I could definitely use more banelings against Z but I was wondering the exact build and timing.
You should get ling speed at your first 100 gas in every ZvZ (this is my opinion). In fact, you should have your opener based around getting gas -> Pool. So if you usually do 14 Pool in ZvZ, you should do 14 gas -> 13 or 14 Pool (though that's a bit late for some close maps, but you get the idea). If there is a significant time gap between you getting speed and your opponent getting speed, the first one to get speed should be able to win the game instantly if they are scouting aggressively.
Speedlings allow you to
a) Scout incredibly well. For (at most) 25 minerals, you can scout any point on the map whenever you like, in seconds.
b) Threaten instant wins.
If your opponent went lair -> ling speed, you should just build up a speedling force and kill him. If he built spinecrawlers, just expand and tech to lair with your second 100 gas as you normally would. If he is going muta, you will have hydra out in plenty of time to defend. If he is going hydra, you have nothing to fear and are potentially 2 full geysers ahead of him.
c) Gain early map control. This is crucial for expanding at a good time. The only threat to this is if your opponent blindly teched to early banelings and you didn't scout it, but you should not run into this if you are playing good players.
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As for exact timing, it is extremely map dependent and position dependent. You should use your speedlings/initial ovies to scout the opponent as best you can. You should time your banelings so that they can be used for defense of your expansion or your ramp. So like on Lost Temple, I usually do Speed -> Lair -> Banelings (if the other guy also went speedlings and not Roaches or something strange).
The banelings come up in time to get my expansion up (at this point I have a medium-ish speedling army out on the map, poking into my opponent's base for scouting/distraction). All it really takes is 2 banelings to defend any one thing. 2 banelings around a hatchery will defend it perfectly from any kind of attack. Similarly for ramps/chokes. Maybe 3 banelings on the Scrap Station ramp, but you can just as easily defend your mineral line with 2 banelings so I usually try to do that.
Note that this is all "early on". If your opponent builds up a 40-50 speedling army, you will obviously require more banelings. If you're not sure if you have enough, just make 1 extra. Keep in mind that every 2 banelings you build sets you back 1 hydralisk (depending on your drone count, that is).
Try to keep the banelings a) minimal and b) defensive. If you try to attack with banelings, there is a great deal of uncertainty, especially if the opponent has banelings. So put your banelings in a defensive spot where the engine AI assures they'll do maximum damage. Even when you attack with banelings behind your army, they should be defensive. So you run your army away (your army and banelings are on different hotkeys obviously) and leave your banelings there. They will auto-attack whatever you ran from, just be sure they stay in a good position.
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Sorry I can't give really specific numbers. For every other matchup, I can give you a list of numbers and timings and junk, but ZvZ has become extremely dynamic with the Zergling/Baneling balancing early on. So giving you strict numbers would just be lying/misinforming. Basically, just go in the game with the idea that you want to do Speed -> Lair -> Banelings and use your speedlings to scout and determine whether or not it's gonna be reasonable.
Also good to note: speedlings destroy any other opener, including roaches. If your opponent goes roaches, and you went gas -> Pool -> Speed, you can demolish him with your first or second larva inject or you can choose to safely expand if you're not confident in your ling push. To figure out how many lings you need against roaches, someone told me this awesome rule: imagine roaches are dragoons in BW.
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ummmmmmmm
marines medivacs
that is all.
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On May 18 2010 10:58 BlueApex wrote:
ummmmmmmm
marines medivacs
that is all.
Yes, brilliant ZvZ build...
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Without banelings early on (100g speed -> 50g blingnest), you will die to the guy who does have banelings. Forget the sunken, you need baneling for D even if you're trying to tech. It's impossible otherwise because you have to dodge his baneling all day while his speedlings are free to rape your base. Even if you have 2 spine crawlers, all you need is 4 banelings, 2 on each side of the mineral line sandwiching in on the drones. Don't forget blings STILL do their damage EVEN if they get killed.
You might insist your micro is compitent, but a compitent zerg will keep control of his blings and NEVER A move and NEVER detonate them unless 1. he managed to get in your drone line without you drilling away, or 2. if your ling mass momentarily grazes within range of the baneling (even if you mean to retreat and simply got too close on accident). You essentially have 0 defense against speedling while banelings are out. Sure you can send 2-3 ling at one baneling to try to kill it, but even if you do, that baneling can still make it pretty far with ling on its tail or better yet, just have the bling's ling brethren come deal with few lings attempting to snipe it.
Since I'm currently 11-0 against zerg in top10 plat, I feel that this is a bit under-used. The only guy who stood a chance also went bling while trying to lair up but a momentary mis-micro cost him his ling mass.
Whatever "safe" build you think you have going, it doesn't work against baneling openings if you don't have blings yourself. No, roaches won't come in time and get owned by plain speedling before their numbers get high enough.
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EPT
