I'm by no means a good SC2 player - I got my key only 3-4 days ago and have still been experimenting with all the races, learning the tech, etc. I'm currently in the Bronze league. I'm enjoying playing Zerg the most, perhaps because that was my 'best' race in BW and it was easiest to adapt to in SC2.
However I'm finding a huge amount of trouble against Terran turtlers. Especially those that stay in their base without even expanding, wall in, turret around their base and just mass up. When I see the Terran is turtling I usually mass a large amount of hydras and roaches, expand like crazy, and try to tech to Brood Lords to break the turtle.
When/if I get to Brood Lords, all is fine and dandy. However if the Terran ends up pushing just before I get to BL's, my entire army of Hydras and Roaches is usually slaughtered. Even though I have 90% of the map and many other hatcheries I just cannot macro quickly enough to meet his army a second time, and he proceeds to walk over my main, killing all my tech buildings, leaving me no choice but to GG.
There are obvious places I can improve on; my APM isn't quite fast enough to spawn larva on every Hatchery during a battle limiting my macro and I perhaps could focus fire tanks etc a bit more.
Are there any major tips strategy-wise on how to beat the Terran turtle?
you can try baneling/roach burrow traps... unless he gets 1 raven. Also make sure you're adding a couple of infestors to fungal things, research neural parasite if you see thors with suicided overlords. You can also try baneling drops on his mineral line.
On May 10 2010 10:09 damon2400 wrote: Just mass expand, sit your huge army outside his base and wait for him to mine himself out.
This. If he wants to turtle, establish a contain with overlord creep, crawlers, and your main army right outside his man. Spread your overlords around the perimeter of his base so you can see if he goes for any drops, and macro like hell. Expand as soon as possible (while reinforcing your army) every time, he'll run out of minerals eventually and you'll be sitting on a 200/200 army with 5k in the bank.
NEVER attack a turtle. He has a very solid defensive set up most likely, and is waiting for you to push so he can counter. Simply sit back on your lead and build up. He'll come out eventually. If he doesn't, broodlords can snipe pretty easily. But never commit against an opponent with a defensive advantage in this scenario.
You can break his wall-in with banelings very easily and with pretty good cost value. Banelings do a lot more damage to buildings so you can supply block the enemy (destroyed supply depots) and also damage the units gaurding it (killing a bunch if you're lucky). This works pretty well as even if you don't hurt his army that much especially if you want to use more banelings later on.
Are you describing a sort of 1 base timing push, or a type where he stays in 1 base for 20-30 minutes then attacks.
If he's on one base the whole time, his macro will be nowhere as good as yours. If the strategy hes going for is stay in base for 30 minutes then attack, you will have way more units because of expansions, more minerals, there should be no reason you won't be able to take him in an army fight. However, some people like to be gay and do some weird cheesy void ray/mass banshee thing and try to harass you to death, gotta watch out for that.
I played quite a few ZvT games with a friend who just tried to turtle as long as possible. Like others have said, do NOT attack. Expand, scout when possible to know if/when he's going to move out, what unit composition he has etc. You can tech to broodlords and/or use Nydus canals. Don't forget those +1/+2/+3 upgrades. If it's early sometimes you can break in with burrowed roaches assuming he doesn't have detection. Sieged tanks really blow lings/blings away so don't bother with them.
If he moves out, you definitely need to flank and get a good surround. Get 6-10 infestors in a 200 supply army at least, for neural parasite of course.
TL;DR You can't break the turtle. Wait for him to come out, but be prepared.
Terrans who turtle lose to 5-base Zerg. He's choosing to cede map control to you, take advantage of it and use it. You'll be able to afford a lot of static defense, which should keep his army at bay and allow you to reproduce any units you lose.
Tanks get hurt hard by brood lords and burrowed roaches. Tech up to brood lords and destroy him with your stronger army, which you can replenish faster.
use banelings. it breaks terran wall ins so nicely and u can ravage there mineral line with lings or more banelings. and the good part is u can get banelings super early before he has time to set up a real hard defense. this is what i usually do if i see a terran wall in. target his depots then target barracks. or barracks first then depots. by the time u get banelings out the terran will usually only have 1 or 2 barracks since they will almost certainly be teching up. so make sure to hit him where it hurts.
depots/gas scvs/tech labs/barracks are all prime targets that will severely cripple the terran if not end the game right then and there.
the good thing about going banelings against terrans like this is they will only have marauders/marines out by the time u have banelings out. banelings shit over marines like no tommorow and lings rape the hell out of marauders. so u will be in a good spot. make sure u upgrade baneling speed and ling speed as soon as ur able. you can also tech to hydras in the mean time.
The problem I have is that when he eventually comes out his army (which isn't extremely large) steamrolls over my 200/200 hydras/roaches. Then after that, even though I've expanded all over the map and have 5k minerals in the bank, I am unable to muster up an army within 30 seconds and bam, he's killing my tech buildings.
I haven't thought of using banelings before. I thought they die rather fast though - how am I to break his wall with marines defending it?
I'll try using Infestors more for tanks next time. I still need more experience with the game, I can't even remember the hotkeys for Fungal Growth/Neural Parasite atm.
I would rather have 200 / 200 banemutaling than just straight up hydra/roach. Infestors are a definite requirement for the largest battles.
You could just also put 1.2K into four extra hatcheries in order to replenish your army extremely quickly after it's wiped, or you could nydus his main when he moves out.
On May 10 2010 10:36 Firebolt145 wrote: The problem I have is that when he eventually comes out his army (which isn't extremely large) steamrolls over my 200/200 hydras/roaches. Then after that, even though I've expanded all over the map and have 5k minerals in the bank, I am unable to muster up an army within 30 seconds and bam, he's killing my tech buildings.
Roaches are 27 and Hydras are 33 seconds. If you are sitting 200/200 with 5k resources then you should have a dozen larva at each hatchery. You should have reinforcements within seconds.
On May 10 2010 10:36 Firebolt145 wrote: The problem I have is that when he eventually comes out his army (which isn't extremely large) steamrolls over my 200/200 hydras/roaches. Then after that, even though I've expanded all over the map and have 5k minerals in the bank, I am unable to muster up an army within 30 seconds and bam, he's killing my tech buildings.
I haven't thought of using banelings before. I thought they die rather fast though - how am I to break his wall with marines defending it?
I'll try using Infestors more for tanks next time. I still need more experience with the game, I can't even remember the hotkeys for Fungal Growth/Neural Parasite atm.
if that really happens then it can only mean he was at a heavy upgrade advantage over u. in 30 mins time there should be no reason to not have a fully upgraded 3/3 army.
if theres marines defending it then it shouldnt matter. just get speed upgrade and a ton of banelings and just target his wall. marines get 1 shot by banelings if they dont have there shield upgrade and they do splash so 2 banelings can take out like 10 marines at once. if the marines are in bunkers then break the wall, send in lings or roaches so the marines in the bunker target them and then send in the banelings to bust the bunkers. just make sure u have fodder so they can soak up the dmg while the banelings can do there work without being killed to fast.
if the terran goes mass thors or mass BCs then get a shit load of infestors and hydras/roach with NP researched and i promise u will win everytime.
Seriously, what everyone else said. Expand. A T tried to mass turtle with like, five Bunkers at his Natural on like Blistering Sands or something, and a crap ton of siege tanks on the ledge all around his main and by his backdoor rocks. I just mass expanded around the map, saturated both Gold Minerals and set up creep all around the map. It just became a game of him not being able to resupply himself. Me being able to have like, 12 Larvae at every expansion at all times with constant Larvae Inject and the ability to support units out of all of them with the click of a button, just wrecks the T. I put up a Nydus in his main, he pulls his forces back from the front to defend Lings pouring out as I rush in mass Brood Lords and Hydra's on the front.
Basically, just expand expand expand. The T wont be able to do anything about it, and if he tries to move out you can easily crush him with a flank.
On May 10 2010 10:23 CosmicAC wrote: However, some people like to be gay and do some weird cheesy void ray/mass banshee thing and try to harass you to death, gotta watch out for that.
I think comments like that do not belong into tl.net forums - what happened to the strict moderation I love so much about this place?
You've gotta do a better job macro'ing. If they're on two bases and you're taking your fifth you should definitely always be under 1k gas. Are you maxing out upgrades? Go double evo chamber and get infestors out after you take your third and start saturating it.
On Kulas Ravine I have had 7 bases to a terrans 3 in a ffa. The entire map was mined out. I had 20+ in the bank saved up as I mined the entire map to get the advantage since he was turtling. The terran was on the high ground expansion with turrets, thor, tanks, and vikings. I threw every combination of zerg units at him about 10 times and could never break it. That single game made me consider retiring from zerg. Looking back if I lead a drop with 50 empty overlords I may have been able to get in without the vikings and thor killing them all. It is a ridiculous scenario though. VERY frustrating to have such an economic advantage and feel helpless. If the terran has no plans for the next week and you do you lose is pretty much what it feels like because you have to suicide into him. Eventually I just left the game. He wasn't going to leave his base and it felt impossible to break.
On July 07 2010 13:23 BrenttheGreat wrote: On Kulas Ravine I have had 7 bases to a terrans 3 in a ffa. The entire map was mined out. I had 20+ in the bank saved up as I mined the entire map to get the advantage since he was turtling. The terran was on the high ground expansion with turrets, thor, tanks, and vikings. I threw every combination of zerg units at him about 10 times and could never break it. That single game made me consider retiring from zerg. Looking back if I lead a drop with 50 empty overlords I may have been able to get in without the vikings and thor killing them all. It is a ridiculous scenario though. VERY frustrating to have such an economic advantage and feel helpless. If the terran has no plans for the next week and you do you lose is pretty much what it feels like because you have to suicide into him. Eventually I just left the game. He wasn't going to leave his base and it felt impossible to break.
Yeah Terran can be hard to break on Kulas, but if you were 7 to 3, you still should have been able to beat him fairly easy.
His composition you described isn't very mobile at all, with the exception of the vikings. This makes him very susceptible to nydus worms. Emphasis on worms. Spawn like 5 at once all over. 1 in his main, 1 in his natural, 1 in in 3rd, any random place you think he might move. Pop out in one where he has no forces, or the least amount, and attack as much as you can until his army arrives and pop out somewhere else.
There is no reason a 7 base zerg should lose to a 3 base terran. Remember, he has to move out before you do on only 3 bases.
On July 07 2010 13:23 BrenttheGreat wrote: On Kulas Ravine I have had 7 bases to a terrans 3 in a ffa. The entire map was mined out. I had 20+ in the bank saved up as I mined the entire map to get the advantage since he was turtling. The terran was on the high ground expansion with turrets, thor, tanks, and vikings. I threw every combination of zerg units at him about 10 times and could never break it. That single game made me consider retiring from zerg. Looking back if I lead a drop with 50 empty overlords I may have been able to get in without the vikings and thor killing them all. It is a ridiculous scenario though. VERY frustrating to have such an economic advantage and feel helpless. If the terran has no plans for the next week and you do you lose is pretty much what it feels like because you have to suicide into him. Eventually I just left the game. He wasn't going to leave his base and it felt impossible to break.
Before you post please have a good reason for doing so because this thread is almost 2 months old. Thanks.
There is a VOD of Artosis playing Side on Husky's youtube page which has some tactics you could try out against a turtle who does a Siege Push. They won't be easy to pull of if you're in Bronze League as they require a good deal of mechanics.
I think it's this one
The way Artosis stopped the push was mass burrowed roaches with mass baneling drops. As a game plan he did what everyone in this thread suggested, max expansions.
There is another VOD on Hysky's youtube with a similar game plan by TLO. His opponent took his natural and tried to hold his third, while TLO took ALL other expansions on the map. Then he just massed ultralisks. I don't suggest trying the Ultra's, but the expansions are nice
Zerg vs. a turtle T is very hard atm.. I've had matches where i cap 200/200, with alot more macro than him, yet i loose when he rolls out. Only advise i can give you: Macro hard and tech to ultralisk, and hope to god he doesn't go Thor to nail your ultras' ass.
if hes not moving out mass hydras roaches and infestors take whole map with expansons and creep highway if your food capped and hes still waiting to push out doom drop main for lulz
Of course it will be hard to stop a 200/200 T. Looking at the current shitty maps where everywhere is a choke point it is theoretically impossible to stop a ball that large. Let's not assume the terran is an awful retard; once he steamrolls your army (if you ever decide to engage him) he will start dropping your expos and applying constant pressure as his ball makes its way to your front door. You can try to outmacro him by replacing lost units 3x faster than he can, but drops will also make that difficult. Neither can you afford to split your forces. If he manages to take 2 out your 5 bases down zerg loses. It's simple. Zerg can't afford to lose bases.
You will need to conduct small scale doom drops BEFORE he is even near to maxing out his supply while constantly expanding preferably to gold expo first. Later you can send 5 bl to his bases (with support if necessary) to just do some damage, replacing them as soon as they die.
To above poster just suicide an ovie in to figure out his unit choices. Then you'll have ample time to make your own army, which will be able to crush said army you just scouted. Even if he does manage to take down your army at that point you should have literally unlimited resources to quickly rebuild an army and take down his straggling army. Then just find wherever he tried to expand to and destroy it and then he'll probably GG.
On July 09 2010 15:01 Prdors wrote: To above poster just suicide an ovie in to figure out his unit choices. Then you'll have ample time to make your own army, which will be able to crush said army you just scouted. Even if he does manage to take down your army at that point you should have literally unlimited resources to quickly rebuild an army and take down his straggling army. Then just find wherever he tried to expand to and destroy it and then he'll probably GG.
Generally it's best to skip Hydras and roaches against a terran going heavy mech. The key to winning is 4+ expansions like everyone else has said and be sure to abuse his immobility. You can do this with overlord drops where you snipe off buildings workers etc where his army is not, by the time they reach you load your slings back into the overlords and fly away. Nydus worms also do a good job of taking advantage of his turtling. I need to experiment more with mutilisks before I would recommend them but they are an option. In terms of units infestors are going to be your best friend here, neural parasite and fungal growth will help you control him immensely. Tech to either brood lords or ultralisks (either work) and build your supply quickly. To keep him in his base though for you to get the hive-tech you have to pressure him with lots of drops or general harassment. Many zergs think this matchup is unbeatable because you have to be very active and do much more than just attack with 200 food. Sieged tanks will beat 200 supply worth of roaches hydras and lings.
On July 09 2010 15:01 Prdors wrote: Even if he does manage to take down your army at that point you should have literally unlimited resources to quickly rebuild an army and take down his straggling army.
The problem with this theory is that in most ZvMech battles, the zerg either wins the fight, or he loses everything and kills 10 supply worth of units. I find there is little grey area.
So basically, when that first big battle happens against his nice mech comp, the game is usually won or lost right there. If you lose your perfect comp of burrowed roaches, 20 mutas, and banelings and fail to destroy his army there is usually little time to macro up an army that can even manage to do damage to his ball at that point.
On July 09 2010 15:01 Prdors wrote: Even if he does manage to take down your army at that point you should have literally unlimited resources to quickly rebuild an army and take down his straggling army.
The problem with this theory is that in most ZvMech battles, the zerg either wins the fight, or he loses everything and kills 10 supply worth of units. I find there is little grey area.
So basically, when that first big battle happens against his nice mech comp, the game is usually won or lost right there. If you lose your perfect comp of burrowed roaches, 20 mutas, and banelings and fail to destroy his army there is usually little time to macro up an army that can even manage to do damage to his ball at that point.
That is unfortunately my problem as well.........
Even with a bunch of hatcheries, it's difficult to macro up enough to kill the God Combo...
EPT
