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On May 08 2010 23:49 matt09 wrote:
a lot of people just like easy wins that take no skill by massing air units. its why i dont play ladder matches anymore 4 out 4 matches all of them massed air.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
+ Show Spoiler +HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Anyway to OP, start getting hydras right away, like take your gas sometime around your 2nd hatch, lair with 100 first gas, hydra den as soon as you can etc, hydras are great at defending agains the timing push aswell, you could do well to build them early on almost every game
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On May 09 2010 04:40 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 04:26 panther1389 wrote:On May 09 2010 03:47 Lollersauce wrote:
According to DUSTIN BROWDER aka the strategy god himself, you are supposed to get infestors to counter void rays. Don't let that NP research time deter you, just do it and you shall win. he doesn't say use infestors to counter early void rays he said it's now an option to counter void rays (obviously later in the game). unless of course you've talked to him yourself and know exactly what all of his strats are..... Yeah, too bad Zerg needs help against early void rays and not really "later in the game".
i agree with you there i got owned by it 2 games in a row yesterday. the one time i was preparing for it (in a later game) i got zealot rushed while fast teching to hydras.
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On May 09 2010 04:56 panther1389 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 04:40 Lollersauce wrote:On May 09 2010 04:26 panther1389 wrote:On May 09 2010 03:47 Lollersauce wrote:
According to DUSTIN BROWDER aka the strategy god himself, you are supposed to get infestors to counter void rays. Don't let that NP research time deter you, just do it and you shall win. he doesn't say use infestors to counter early void rays he said it's now an option to counter void rays (obviously later in the game). unless of course you've talked to him yourself and know exactly what all of his strats are..... Yeah, too bad Zerg needs help against early void rays and not really "later in the game". i agree with you there i got owned by it 2 games in a row yesterday. the one time i was preparing for it (in a later game) i got zealot rushed while fast teching to hydras.
Thats what overlords, and scouts are for. If you see him go 2 gate, its time to put down some spines and some lings.... (usually by the time you see this, its probably too late to go for roaches)
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On May 09 2010 02:13 Takkara wrote:
I watched the initial replay in the OP, and it just seems like a poor build order against the Protoss' plan, and then a poor strategic decision to attack from behind at the end.
1) He starts with a fast 2 gate zealot rush that catches you offguard. You end up losing 900 minerals of units to his 500 minerals, and lose a queen during your Lair teching.
2) Despite being on a fast second base, you were always behind the Protoss in income throughout the entire game. This was only exacerbated as the game went on and the Protoss took a second base.
3) After you fell-behind early, you massed up units for an all-in near the end of the match. This would seem to be a mistake as you've been behind in economy all game so it stands to reason that marching across the map into the Toss' base would result in you experiencing a much larger force.
4) You don't scout ahead of your attack meaning that you don't realize what his unit comp is until you see the void-rays.
5) You attacked 12 Zealots, 1 Immortal, and 8 Void Rays with 9 Zerglings, 15 Hydralisks, and 2 Roaches. You had 5 Hydralisks en route but hadn't arrived yet, and 1 Zergling was at the watch tower.
6) Your queen had 200/200 energy when you pushed your attack and you had no queen at your expansion.
I just think there's a lot of things wrong with this replay before talking about the potential strength of Void Rays. I'm not saying you're bad, but I think just attributing the loss to OP massing of air is mislabeling it a fair fair bit. The first Void Ray didn't even hit until the 9min mark, and he only had 8 zealots to your (at that time) 12 Zeglings, 3 Hydras, and 2 Roaches. If you had spent a little more time/focus macro'ing early game after the rush you could have flown right into that timing window and done some significant damage.
EDIT: Just double checked again and your queens only vomited larva 3 times total in an 18 minute match while you had two hatcheries up from the 4:30 mark and had a queen up initially at 4:35.
Thank you 
but how can I be behind even though I have 2 bases?
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i still love how they can switch targets and be fully charged.
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I just faced this in one of my ladder matches on Scrap Station. I managed to get some hydras to defend, with a few mutalisks since I teched stupidly. I was able to hold it off and fight for the win once I got a couple infestors out to mind control some Void Rays.
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even when fully charged, it's only 10(+1) / 0.6 seconds against non-armored units.
... and the toss air upgrades are quite expensive.
so... being ahead in armor upgrades helps quite a bit; slightly more than upgrading the 12 dmg of a hydra by 1.
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On May 09 2010 05:37 folke123 wrote:
but how can I be behind even though I have 2 bases?
It's based on workers, not so much bases. Sure, adding bases means that you get more larva (good) and more capacity (more minerals to mine, more geysers to tap) but you need workers to take advantage of that capacity. Throughout the game you always had less drones than he had probes. This meant you were always getting less gas and less minerals than him.
Because of that he could just make more than you, and there wasn't much you could do about it unless you hard countered him.
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My standard play ZvP is to fast-tech Lair and mass Roach/Hydra, so I haven't had too many problems with this strategy so far. Once I confirm that he is making VRs, I put up a couple spine crawlers to protect my mineral line and then mass up Hydras.
If you have a few Hydras + Queen when his first Rays get to your base then you can fight them off with minimal losses, and after that you will have the advantage since he invested so much in fast-teching them.
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On May 08 2010 23:53 Tin_Foil wrote:
Don't listen to matt....
I know this is going to sound unhelpful, but hydras are cost effective versus voidrays, so he probably just macroed better. Another thing is to catch the VRs while they don't have a charge. having charge up makes VRs about twice as good.
From personal experience, hydras are terrible versus void rays. I find mutalisks better because of their bounce.
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On May 09 2010 01:04 DragonDefonce wrote:
If you opponent masses voidrays that early, get hydras to defend, be ready to give up a hatchery, and send zerglings in his main. He shouldn't have much to defend.
The most important thing about voidrays is that they need to be charged up. They are incredibly strong when charged against every unit, but abysmal when they are not. Abuse that fact, and kite them around to coerce them into loosing the charges.
zerglings aren't really a good option, since he is spending his minerals on zealots(which also counter hydras which u are making to counter void rays)
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this is a low level replay. (not critizing that it is low level).
But as a result of this, both you and the protoss player A move and didnt micro.
Not only is your army sizes smaller (80 vs 100), but your unit composition is wrong. 8zealots and 8void +1 collui vs 15 hydra and 1 roach and some zerling... Even jadong would have problem winning that micro battle. Let along both of you A move. So what happen? your hydra engae the first thing in range, and they are zealot. In the end, you kill most of his zealots, but the void ray are all fine. Hence you lost the match.
Also note, for lower level play, countering void ray is indeed harder then the actual execution. Void ray is usually and all in rush. If you counter then appropriately, you pretty much win the game.
For low level zerg, dont bother with muta harass, or infestor play. Just mass roaches and hydra together. A move with that combo is pretty good. Hell, this combo is very command at high level protoss vs zerg.
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On May 09 2010 00:58 baconbits wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 00:31 Piousflea wrote:
Hydras don't just beat void rays, they completely dominate them. Once they are range upgraded they have the same range as VRs, so microing the VRs does not help against hydras.
Mutas will also beat void rays and the VRs can't run away from mutas, but mutas come too late to help against a true VR rush. Always go hydras.
Do NOT try to use corruptors against VRs. Corruptors don't get any bonus damage against VRs, VRs get bonus damage against corruptors, the corrs will get trashed. Void Rays are range 7 Hydralisks are range 6 with upgrade, voids still outrange. And hydras only work in an even engagement, aka, voids are not charged yet. If you expect to take out 8+ voids with hydras, when voids are fully charged, you're gonna lose your hydras. 8 fully charged voids will insta-gib 2 hydras every damage tick
full charge void rays do 10 damage per tick, thats 1 hydra since 8X10=10
stop theorycrafting, hydras destroy void rays unless he has significantly more money in voids than you have in hydras, which shouldnt be possible. that or you were outmicro'd/didnt focus correctly
likewise it only takes 8 hydras to 2-shot a void ray, and hydras fire extremely fast. just select hydras and shift-click the void rays and they will melt. only time rays can fight is near a cliff where they can actually abuse the +1 range
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On May 09 2010 01:02 Floophead_III wrote:
DO NOT GO AIR. Mutas are not cost effective and corruptors suck.
wtf? mutas are EXTREMELY cost effective vs void rays, i dont know what game you've been playing. considering the relative # of each unit due to cost and that mutas dictate where fights occur, mutas destroy void rays.
although it is a bad idea to go air vs void ray rush though mainly since you will never be able to get mutas out in time.
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As a zerg player... the standard immortal-sentry push is 10,000 times more difficult to stop IMO..
Hydras are the way to go because it will help even if P transitions to ground. Also if you go mutas you better be prepared to be raped by patch 11 phoenixes
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On May 09 2010 16:35 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 01:02 Floophead_III wrote:
DO NOT GO AIR. Mutas are not cost effective and corruptors suck. wtf? mutas are EXTREMELY cost effective vs void rays, i dont know what game you've been playing. considering the relative # of each unit due to cost and that mutas dictate where fights occur, mutas destroy void rays. although it is a bad idea to go air vs void ray rush though mainly since you will never be able to get mutas out in time.
Mutas are surprisingly bad. Once voidrays get charge they completely melt. Try 12 muta vs 8 voidray and tell me what happens.
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u should always leave a ling or 2 in near his base to scout, also, get an overseer to constantly check on his build.
When you attacked with hydra+lings, he only had voidrays+zealots, muta would completely rape that combo.
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On May 09 2010 17:04 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 16:35 Chen wrote:On May 09 2010 01:02 Floophead_III wrote:
DO NOT GO AIR. Mutas are not cost effective and corruptors suck. wtf? mutas are EXTREMELY cost effective vs void rays, i dont know what game you've been playing. considering the relative # of each unit due to cost and that mutas dictate where fights occur, mutas destroy void rays. although it is a bad idea to go air vs void ray rush though mainly since you will never be able to get mutas out in time. Mutas are surprisingly bad. Once voidrays get charge they completely melt. Try 12 muta vs 8 voidray and tell me what happens.
Except that just before the VR charge, you have the mutalisks back off then come back so the charge goes down. Which is obviously very easy to do as Muta are like fifty time faster than VR
Also
12 Mutaliks = 1,2k minerals / 1,2k gas
8 Void rays = 2k mineral / 1,2k gas
It would be expected than the 8 VR have some edge there.
I'd agree than hydralisks would be more cost effective, but Muta are ok, and on many maps (Scrapstation or Desert Oasis) they allow for instant punishment after holding off the rush by going to kill probes while the guy is trying to recover.
Lastly, as it's been said already, Queens are your friend against R (not even talking about transfusion here). I held off a VR rush yesterday solely because i made that additionnal queen just to have a lil' more punch backing my mutas.
-Kerm
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On May 09 2010 17:19 Kerm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 17:04 Floophead_III wrote:On May 09 2010 16:35 Chen wrote:On May 09 2010 01:02 Floophead_III wrote:
DO NOT GO AIR. Mutas are not cost effective and corruptors suck. wtf? mutas are EXTREMELY cost effective vs void rays, i dont know what game you've been playing. considering the relative # of each unit due to cost and that mutas dictate where fights occur, mutas destroy void rays. although it is a bad idea to go air vs void ray rush though mainly since you will never be able to get mutas out in time. Mutas are surprisingly bad. Once voidrays get charge they completely melt. Try 12 muta vs 8 voidray and tell me what happens. Except that just before the VR charge, you have the mutalisks back off then come back so the charge goes down. Which is obviously very easy to do as Muta are like fifty time faster than VR Also 12 Mutaliks = 1,2k minerals / 1,2k gas 8 Void rays = 2k mineral / 1,2k gas It would be expected than the 8 VR have some edge there. I'd agree than hydralisks would be more cost effective, but Muta are ok, and on many maps (Scrapstation or Desert Oasis) they allow for instant punishment after holding off the rush by going to kill probes while the guy is trying to recover. Lastly, as it's been said already, Queens are your friend against R (not even talking about transfusion here). I held off a VR rush yesterday solely because i made that additionnal queen just to have a lil' more punch backing my mutas. -Kerm
It's a shame that not only do Muta come out later, which may possibly be too late for you to survive the VR rush, but you can also to expect to get bent over when he transitions to Sentry/Stalker/Templar if you over-commit to Muta. Remember, this is a lower level player we're discussing here, it's common to over commit at the Bronze/Silver/even Gold levels.
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Well i'm a silver / bronze player myself, and from my understanding it all depends on when (i.e : with how many VR) the P decides to rush. With on 1 - 2, queenS should be able to repel the attack, 4 - 5+ : you should be able to have muta by then. So the time frame when Z is vulnerable would be 3-4 VR, so that's probably the timing when you want to hit P's base.
Again, i'm not saying anything like 'go muta you will be always safe of VRs', i'm just saying that if it's part of your game plan, Muta are ok.
I'll try to upload this replay from yesterday, when i go from speedling/banelings busted attack to Muta just in time to repel 5 VR.
[Edit] :There he is : http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/4309
-Kerm
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EPT
