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folke123
Sweden133 Posts
I went for a 14 pool 16 hatch. He got some early zlots and did some dmg. I managed to scout his double stargate and started making hydras. I then tried to move out but my hydras just died to his mass of void rays. Any tips on how I should beat this? or any other tips regarding my gameplay  replay: http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/4142 | ||
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matt09
United States21 Posts
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Tin_Foil
United States243 Posts
I know this is going to sound unhelpful, but hydras are cost effective versus voidrays, so he probably just macroed better. Another thing is to catch the VRs while they don't have a charge. having charge up makes VRs about twice as good. | ||
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Roqu
United States26 Posts
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:55 Roqu wrote: after i lost 4 of 4 matches i stopped laddering as well. So your solution to mass void rays is... stop playing? Yeah that's going to deter people from using them. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:49 matt09 wrote: a lot of people just like easy wins that take no skill by massing air units. its why i dont play ladder matches anymore 4 out 4 matches all of them massed air. It looks like we've found "that guy" folks. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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University
United States263 Posts
Void Rays: 1. build right buildings and make probes 2. build void rays, press C a few times 3. Micro void rays (not incredibly difficult) Countering Early Void Rays: 1. scout early and spot cyber core 2. notice timings and guess that Void Rays are coming out (early) 3. Completely alter build (unless you were planning fast hydra I guess..) and build correct tech 4. Micro hydras against Void Rays on ridiculous Blizzard Maps. It's not that Void Rays are imbalanced, they're just really not fun to play against because of the skill difference it takes to counter them. I have to be far better than my enemy in order to deal with VRs and at my level it is just awful and not fun. I think a lot of people are feeling the same way. For me, Void Rays completely force my hand, and if I am late by just a small timing they decimate my base. On some maps, Void Rays can snipe tech placed in the back of the base while out of range of marines and hydras, which is ridiculous. I think part of the problem is the maps, which have all this ridiculous space on the outsides, and the part of the problem is that they force the Zerg into a very predictable tech pattern. I'm not saying they're imbalanced, I'm just pitching some of the reasons they are really not fun for lower level players who don't quite have the APM to scout, macro, tech, and micro at 100%. I know that I need to just be better, and that if my play were tighter I could get an advantage out of knowing they're going Void Rays, but right now I just struggle a lot against this tactic, which I think is a common feeling among gold/silver players. | ||
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danbel1005
United States1319 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:49 matt09 wrote: a lot of people just like easy wins that take no skill by massing air units. its why i dont play ladder matches anymore 4 out 4 matches all of them massed air. Definitely Starcraft is not for someone like you then. Dont get me wrong Im not saying SC2 doesnt fit u just bcuz uve lost 4 games to mass VR but bcuz of the decision u took after losing those games. See, if u wanna get better then ull have to keep laddering and studying ur replays, then after a decent period of time ull not only be able to defeat that VR opening but also many other different BO's. You just stop laddering cuz ppl r using VR against u? LOL. People will find out another way to defeat Zergs early game, what will u do then? Quit Custom Games? then quit SC2? lmao. | ||
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danbel1005
United States1319 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:55 Roqu wrote: after i lost 4 of 4 matches i stopped laddering as well. LMAO this is hilarious. It really is. Ima take that as a joke cuz seriously I cant think about it as a real thing. What I do see is you losing the next 2 to 3 games and then quitting SC2. GL with that.  | ||
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Synk
United States297 Posts
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
Mutas will also beat void rays and the VRs can't run away from mutas, but mutas come too late to help against a true VR rush. Always go hydras. Do NOT try to use corruptors against VRs. Corruptors don't get any bonus damage against VRs, VRs get bonus damage against corruptors, the corrs will get trashed. | ||
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ultfrisbee
Canada12 Posts
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Dekkis
1 Post
I also noticed you don't do the extractor trick, which this replay will show. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/4155 Build Extractor at 13, transfer 3 drones to it when its done At 14 build Pool. While Pool is constructing build drones to 17. When Pool finishes send a drone to build a 2nd extractor and start a queen, then cancel the ext and send the drone back to work. Also build 2 sets of lings and immediately start roach warren. When the queen finishes you'll have enough gas to immediately upgrade to a Lair. Vomit on the hatch with the queen, then start making roaches as soon as you can. Typically ~5 roaches will hold a 2gate rush. Send out the lings to scout for the rush and try to use micro to pull the zealots further away, giving more time for your roaches to build. If theyre all in zealot rushing you can then push with your roaches and normally win. (I've come across alot of all-in zrush players in gold and silver) but if they're not: I use Mutas to counter voidrays preemptively. This strategy lets me build a spire very quickly once I've managed the zealots and then get mutas up and running. Its in this time after Ive countered the rush that I expand, typically favoring a rich mineral patch thats a bit further than my natural. As long as you get mutas faster than they get VRs you can do enough economy harass to keep them on the defensive (until they cannon themselves in -.-) but it will definitely give you enough time to recoop or at least throw off their fast VR strat. Also I agree with University, VRs take significantly less skill to get rolling than their counter strategies. I feel like every time I'm going against a toss player thats going air I need to be on my A game or I'll get shat out, where as the Toss player can just chillax and crank out more void rays. Its not that they're imba, because they can be countered by a formula, but they are definitely more effective than they are difficult to produce/control/execute. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:36 ultfrisbee wrote: If he had a mass of void ray (anywhere more than 3), it was your fault if you lost. It means you didn't scout, harass or attack enough. This isn't true at all If he had more than 3 void rays it means that he wasn't stupid and actually kept them alive instead of just suiciding them. Void rays are more effective as their mass builds up, not less effective. You would know this if you watched streams, hopefully you actually have beta. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
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SadSatyr
United States77 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:14 University wrote: For me, Void Rays completely force my hand, and if I am late by just a small timing they decimate my base. On some maps, Void Rays can snipe tech placed in the back of the base while out of range of marines and hydras, which is ridiculous. I think part of the problem is the maps, which have all this ridiculous space on the outsides, and the part of the problem is that they force the Zerg into a very predictable tech pattern. This is actually the part that worries me. I have a hard time against VRs as well, but prior to the last patch I often went for fast muta to do some harassment and I was able to hold off the VRs about 50% of the time. Post this patch though I'm really concerned because early muta in low numbers isn't viable against toss anymore because of how badly the nix owns them. That means I have to go hydra to have any chance against VR so he can make 2 VR force me to go hydra, then switch to colossi and I'm in a world of hurt. ZvP used to be my best match up, since the patch I'm really afraid of it, lol. If anyone has any suggestions for how to deal with this that would be great. Sacking overlords to scout doesn't always work. They don't have speed by the time you have to decide what tech building to use, and a properly blocked choke will deny you the ability to scout them. Do we always mass hydra while playing in the dark now? | ||
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baconbits
United States419 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:31 Piousflea wrote: Hydras don't just beat void rays, they completely dominate them. Once they are range upgraded they have the same range as VRs, so microing the VRs does not help against hydras. Mutas will also beat void rays and the VRs can't run away from mutas, but mutas come too late to help against a true VR rush. Always go hydras. Do NOT try to use corruptors against VRs. Corruptors don't get any bonus damage against VRs, VRs get bonus damage against corruptors, the corrs will get trashed. Void Rays are range 7 Hydralisks are range 6 with upgrade, voids still outrange. And hydras only work in an even engagement, aka, voids are not charged yet. If you expect to take out 8+ voids with hydras, when voids are fully charged, you're gonna lose your hydras. 8 fully charged voids will insta-gib 2 hydras every damage tick | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Go pure hydras and get infestors. Fungal growth will keep voidrays from running allowing your hydras to kill them. Don't be afraid to make a lot of spores too to defend new expos. It's very hard to defend 3+ bases with hydra alone, especially if you don't have creep highways. | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
The most important thing about voidrays is that they need to be charged up. They are incredibly strong when charged against every unit, but abysmal when they are not. Abuse that fact, and kite them around to coerce them into loosing the charges. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On May 09 2010 01:02 Floophead_III wrote: DO NOT GO AIR. Mutas are not cost effective and corruptors suck. If P is having success with voidrays to begin with he'll probably get voidray speed eventually in which case your mobility advantage is gone and you're totally boned. In addition he can easily switch to phoenix to kill the mutas off. Go pure hydras and get infestors. Fungal growth will keep voidrays from running allowing your hydras to kill them. Don't be afraid to make a lot of spores too to defend new expos. It's very hard to defend 3+ bases with hydra alone, especially if you don't have creep highways. this sounds like the proper initiative, take your third, make spores and keep up the hydra production and eventually get a few infesters to support them. Ive been having alot of trouble with this sort of tech because it comes so early, compared to me when i do a 14 pool/ hatch i barely get out enough queens and spores to deflect the initial 2 rays ,or worse one phenix one ray. What really janks my chain or basically every time any race goes air and i stick to ground is that my overlords get shot down and i end up fighting in the dark. after the first voidrays, you dont know if hes going to commit to air or if hes going to switch back to collossii. | ||
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IKenshinI
United States132 Posts
On May 09 2010 01:04 DragonDefonce wrote: If you opponent masses voidrays that early, get hydras to defend, be ready to give up a hatchery, and send zerglings in his main. He shouldn't have much to defend. The most important thing about voidrays is that they need to be charged up. They are incredibly strong when charged against every unit, but abysmal when they are not. Abuse that fact, and kite them around to coerce them into loosing the charges. The issue with kiting is that VR can charge on a friendly unit like a zealot before going into your base and the charge remains for quite some time. The only real "counter" is 2-1 ratio of hydras, and isn't necessarily easy. On May 09 2010 01:22 Madkipz wrote: this sounds like the proper initiative, take your third, make spores and keep up the hydra production and eventually get a few infesters to support them. Ive been having alot of trouble with this sort of tech because it comes so early, compared to me when i do a 14 pool/ hatch i barely get out enough queens and spores to deflect the initial 2 rays ,or worse one phenix one ray. What really janks my chain or basically every time any race goes air and i stick to ground is that my overlords get shot down and i end up fighting in the dark. after the first voidrays, you dont know if hes going to commit to air or if hes going to switch back to collossii. Colossus is quite a time expensive (and cost expensive) tech venture if he started with Void Rays. That should give you a lot of time to tech/expand/mass. | ||
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Fraud
Canada108 Posts
My hydras take out their first voidrays right as my expo kicks in, toss up some spore crawlers, and I knock on their front door to win or cripple. Void rays are one of the ways toss punishes Zerg for fast expo. Other solutions I've seen are getting three queens and microing/using transfusion. | ||
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MayanSc2
United States198 Posts
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np.Resuscitate
United States60 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:56 SadSatyr wrote: This is actually the part that worries me. I have a hard time against VRs as well, but prior to the last patch I often went for fast muta to do some harassment and I was able to hold off the VRs about 50% of the time. Post this patch though I'm really concerned because early muta in low numbers isn't viable against toss anymore because of how badly the nix owns them. That means I have to go hydra to have any chance against VR so he can make 2 VR force me to go hydra, then switch to colossi and I'm in a world of hurt. ZvP used to be my best match up, since the patch I'm really afraid of it, lol. If anyone has any suggestions for how to deal with this that would be great. Sacking overlords to scout doesn't always work. They don't have speed by the time you have to decide what tech building to use, and a properly blocked choke will deny you the ability to scout them. Do we always mass hydra while playing in the dark now? If you go hydra, and you expect him to go collosus, then now the shoe is on the other foot and you are forcing HIS hand. Use that.... its the whole point oif a strategy game. It'll be really funny when you kill his rays with 8 hydras, then when collossi show up, like you knew they would, your infestors you made in advance win you the game. | ||
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Gnaix
United States438 Posts
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The6357
United States1268 Posts
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Takkara
United States2503 Posts
1) He starts with a fast 2 gate zealot rush that catches you offguard. You end up losing 900 minerals of units to his 500 minerals, and lose a queen during your Lair teching. 2) Despite being on a fast second base, you were always behind the Protoss in income throughout the entire game. This was only exacerbated as the game went on and the Protoss took a second base. 3) After you fell-behind early, you massed up units for an all-in near the end of the match. This would seem to be a mistake as you've been behind in economy all game so it stands to reason that marching across the map into the Toss' base would result in you experiencing a much larger force. 4) You don't scout ahead of your attack meaning that you don't realize what his unit comp is until you see the void-rays. 5) You attacked 12 Zealots, 1 Immortal, and 8 Void Rays with 9 Zerglings, 15 Hydralisks, and 2 Roaches. You had 5 Hydralisks en route but hadn't arrived yet, and 1 Zergling was at the watch tower. 6) Your queen had 200/200 energy when you pushed your attack and you had no queen at your expansion. I just think there's a lot of things wrong with this replay before talking about the potential strength of Void Rays. I'm not saying you're bad, but I think just attributing the loss to OP massing of air is mislabeling it a fair fair bit. The first Void Ray didn't even hit until the 9min mark, and he only had 8 zealots to your (at that time) 12 Zeglings, 3 Hydras, and 2 Roaches. If you had spent a little more time/focus macro'ing early game after the rush you could have flown right into that timing window and done some significant damage. EDIT: Just double checked again and your queens only vomited larva 3 times total in an 18 minute match while you had two hatcheries up from the 4:30 mark and had a queen up initially at 4:35. | ||
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
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selboN
United States2523 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:24 danbel1005 wrote: LMAO this is hilarious. It really is. Ima take that as a joke cuz seriously I cant think about it as a real thing. What I do see is you losing the next 2 to 3 games and then quitting SC2. GL with that. It is probably going to happen to you as well. Though, I think you did top out at D-, so you might be a top plat player in SC2. | ||
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Lollersauce
United States357 Posts
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
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Trapist
Canada46 Posts
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Opti
United States155 Posts
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
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nybbas
United States71 Posts
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panther1389
United States42 Posts
On May 09 2010 03:47 Lollersauce wrote: According to DUSTIN BROWDER aka the strategy god himself, you are supposed to get infestors to counter void rays. Don't let that NP research time deter you, just do it and you shall win. he doesn't say use infestors to counter early void rays he said it's now an option to counter void rays (obviously later in the game). unless of course you've talked to him yourself and know exactly what all of his strats are..... | ||
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Lollersauce
United States357 Posts
On May 09 2010 04:26 panther1389 wrote: he doesn't say use infestors to counter early void rays he said it's now an option to counter void rays (obviously later in the game). unless of course you've talked to him yourself and know exactly what all of his strats are..... Yeah, too bad Zerg needs help against early void rays and not really "later in the game". | ||
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nybbas
United States71 Posts
On May 09 2010 04:26 panther1389 wrote: he doesn't say use infestors to counter early void rays he said it's now an option to counter void rays (obviously later in the game). unless of course you've talked to him yourself and know exactly what all of his strats are..... I got rushed in a custom game (the guy was low level so this is just really a poor example but I figured I would share anyway) I had just fast teched straight to infestors to see what i could do with them. I had about 5 out when he pushed the rocks in blistering with an army of stalkers, zealots, and 2 void rays two of the infestors mind controlled the fully charged rays, while the others just chain fungal'd his army... it was pretty funny. On the topic of rays, when the enemy gets to a large amount of rays, they really reach somewhat of a critical mass, where all of them focus firing even with their small beam, instagibs units almost instantly... and since their damage is nearly instant from when they fire, they just slice through their targets insanely fast. If you are zerg and dont just have an overwhelming amount of units to push through it, you are kind of screwed. I see infestors being able to devastate something like that (though to be honest I have only seen void rays in this amount on 2v2 games) | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:49 matt09 wrote: a lot of people just like easy wins that take no skill by massing air units. its why i dont play ladder matches anymore 4 out 4 matches all of them massed air. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA + Show Spoiler + HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Anyway to OP, start getting hydras right away, like take your gas sometime around your 2nd hatch, lair with 100 first gas, hydra den as soon as you can etc, hydras are great at defending agains the timing push aswell, you could do well to build them early on almost every game | ||
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panther1389
United States42 Posts
On May 09 2010 04:40 Lollersauce wrote: Yeah, too bad Zerg needs help against early void rays and not really "later in the game". i agree with you there i got owned by it 2 games in a row yesterday. the one time i was preparing for it (in a later game) i got zealot rushed while fast teching to hydras. | ||
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nybbas
United States71 Posts
On May 09 2010 04:56 panther1389 wrote: i agree with you there i got owned by it 2 games in a row yesterday. the one time i was preparing for it (in a later game) i got zealot rushed while fast teching to hydras. Thats what overlords, and scouts are for. If you see him go 2 gate, its time to put down some spines and some lings.... (usually by the time you see this, its probably too late to go for roaches) | ||
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folke123
Sweden133 Posts
On May 09 2010 02:13 Takkara wrote: I watched the initial replay in the OP, and it just seems like a poor build order against the Protoss' plan, and then a poor strategic decision to attack from behind at the end. 1) He starts with a fast 2 gate zealot rush that catches you offguard. You end up losing 900 minerals of units to his 500 minerals, and lose a queen during your Lair teching. 2) Despite being on a fast second base, you were always behind the Protoss in income throughout the entire game. This was only exacerbated as the game went on and the Protoss took a second base. 3) After you fell-behind early, you massed up units for an all-in near the end of the match. This would seem to be a mistake as you've been behind in economy all game so it stands to reason that marching across the map into the Toss' base would result in you experiencing a much larger force. 4) You don't scout ahead of your attack meaning that you don't realize what his unit comp is until you see the void-rays. 5) You attacked 12 Zealots, 1 Immortal, and 8 Void Rays with 9 Zerglings, 15 Hydralisks, and 2 Roaches. You had 5 Hydralisks en route but hadn't arrived yet, and 1 Zergling was at the watch tower. 6) Your queen had 200/200 energy when you pushed your attack and you had no queen at your expansion. I just think there's a lot of things wrong with this replay before talking about the potential strength of Void Rays. I'm not saying you're bad, but I think just attributing the loss to OP massing of air is mislabeling it a fair fair bit. The first Void Ray didn't even hit until the 9min mark, and he only had 8 zealots to your (at that time) 12 Zeglings, 3 Hydras, and 2 Roaches. If you had spent a little more time/focus macro'ing early game after the rush you could have flown right into that timing window and done some significant damage. EDIT: Just double checked again and your queens only vomited larva 3 times total in an 18 minute match while you had two hatcheries up from the 4:30 mark and had a queen up initially at 4:35. Thank you but how can I be behind even though I have 2 bases? | ||
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Rkie
United States1278 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
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roemy
Germany432 Posts
... and the toss air upgrades are quite expensive. so... being ahead in armor upgrades helps quite a bit; slightly more than upgrading the 12 dmg of a hydra by 1. | ||
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Takkara
United States2503 Posts
On May 09 2010 05:37 folke123 wrote: but how can I be behind even though I have 2 bases? It's based on workers, not so much bases. Sure, adding bases means that you get more larva (good) and more capacity (more minerals to mine, more geysers to tap) but you need workers to take advantage of that capacity. Throughout the game you always had less drones than he had probes. This meant you were always getting less gas and less minerals than him. Because of that he could just make more than you, and there wasn't much you could do about it unless you hard countered him. | ||
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FuRong
New Zealand3089 Posts
If you have a few Hydras + Queen when his first Rays get to your base then you can fight them off with minimal losses, and after that you will have the advantage since he invested so much in fast-teching them. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:53 Tin_Foil wrote: Don't listen to matt.... I know this is going to sound unhelpful, but hydras are cost effective versus voidrays, so he probably just macroed better. Another thing is to catch the VRs while they don't have a charge. having charge up makes VRs about twice as good. From personal experience, hydras are terrible versus void rays. I find mutalisks better because of their bounce. | ||
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Escaton
Poland24 Posts
On May 09 2010 01:04 DragonDefonce wrote: If you opponent masses voidrays that early, get hydras to defend, be ready to give up a hatchery, and send zerglings in his main. He shouldn't have much to defend. The most important thing about voidrays is that they need to be charged up. They are incredibly strong when charged against every unit, but abysmal when they are not. Abuse that fact, and kite them around to coerce them into loosing the charges. zerglings aren't really a good option, since he is spending his minerals on zealots(which also counter hydras which u are making to counter void rays) | ||
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mkfk1
United Kingdom153 Posts
But as a result of this, both you and the protoss player A move and didnt micro. Not only is your army sizes smaller (80 vs 100), but your unit composition is wrong. 8zealots and 8void +1 collui vs 15 hydra and 1 roach and some zerling... Even jadong would have problem winning that micro battle. Let along both of you A move. So what happen? your hydra engae the first thing in range, and they are zealot. In the end, you kill most of his zealots, but the void ray are all fine. Hence you lost the match. Also note, for lower level play, countering void ray is indeed harder then the actual execution. Void ray is usually and all in rush. If you counter then appropriately, you pretty much win the game. For low level zerg, dont bother with muta harass, or infestor play. Just mass roaches and hydra together. A move with that combo is pretty good. Hell, this combo is very command at high level protoss vs zerg. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:58 baconbits wrote: Void Rays are range 7 Hydralisks are range 6 with upgrade, voids still outrange. And hydras only work in an even engagement, aka, voids are not charged yet. If you expect to take out 8+ voids with hydras, when voids are fully charged, you're gonna lose your hydras. 8 fully charged voids will insta-gib 2 hydras every damage tick full charge void rays do 10 damage per tick, thats 1 hydra since 8X10=10 stop theorycrafting, hydras destroy void rays unless he has significantly more money in voids than you have in hydras, which shouldnt be possible. that or you were outmicro'd/didnt focus correctly likewise it only takes 8 hydras to 2-shot a void ray, and hydras fire extremely fast. just select hydras and shift-click the void rays and they will melt. only time rays can fight is near a cliff where they can actually abuse the +1 range | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On May 09 2010 01:02 Floophead_III wrote: DO NOT GO AIR. Mutas are not cost effective and corruptors suck. wtf? mutas are EXTREMELY cost effective vs void rays, i dont know what game you've been playing. considering the relative # of each unit due to cost and that mutas dictate where fights occur, mutas destroy void rays. although it is a bad idea to go air vs void ray rush though mainly since you will never be able to get mutas out in time. | ||
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Brokengamer
Philippines116 Posts
Hydras are the way to go because it will help even if P transitions to ground. Also if you go mutas you better be prepared to be raped by patch 11 phoenixes | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On May 09 2010 16:35 Chen wrote: wtf? mutas are EXTREMELY cost effective vs void rays, i dont know what game you've been playing. considering the relative # of each unit due to cost and that mutas dictate where fights occur, mutas destroy void rays. although it is a bad idea to go air vs void ray rush though mainly since you will never be able to get mutas out in time. Mutas are surprisingly bad. Once voidrays get charge they completely melt. Try 12 muta vs 8 voidray and tell me what happens. | ||
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hhkx
Canada757 Posts
When you attacked with hydra+lings, he only had voidrays+zealots, muta would completely rape that combo. | ||
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Kerm
France467 Posts
On May 09 2010 17:04 Floophead_III wrote: Mutas are surprisingly bad. Once voidrays get charge they completely melt. Try 12 muta vs 8 voidray and tell me what happens. Except that just before the VR charge, you have the mutalisks back off then come back so the charge goes down. Which is obviously very easy to do as Muta are like fifty time faster than VR Also 12 Mutaliks = 1,2k minerals / 1,2k gas 8 Void rays = 2k mineral / 1,2k gas It would be expected than the 8 VR have some edge there. I'd agree than hydralisks would be more cost effective, but Muta are ok, and on many maps (Scrapstation or Desert Oasis) they allow for instant punishment after holding off the rush by going to kill probes while the guy is trying to recover. Lastly, as it's been said already, Queens are your friend against R (not even talking about transfusion here). I held off a VR rush yesterday solely because i made that additionnal queen just to have a lil' more punch backing my mutas. -Kerm | ||
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MutaDoom
Canada1163 Posts
On May 09 2010 17:19 Kerm wrote: Except that just before the VR charge, you have the mutalisks back off then come back so the charge goes down. Which is obviously very easy to do as Muta are like fifty time faster than VR Also 12 Mutaliks = 1,2k minerals / 1,2k gas 8 Void rays = 2k mineral / 1,2k gas It would be expected than the 8 VR have some edge there. I'd agree than hydralisks would be more cost effective, but Muta are ok, and on many maps (Scrapstation or Desert Oasis) they allow for instant punishment after holding off the rush by going to kill probes while the guy is trying to recover. Lastly, as it's been said already, Queens are your friend against R (not even talking about transfusion here). I held off a VR rush yesterday solely because i made that additionnal queen just to have a lil' more punch backing my mutas. -Kerm It's a shame that not only do Muta come out later, which may possibly be too late for you to survive the VR rush, but you can also to expect to get bent over when he transitions to Sentry/Stalker/Templar if you over-commit to Muta. Remember, this is a lower level player we're discussing here, it's common to over commit at the Bronze/Silver/even Gold levels. | ||
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Kerm
France467 Posts
Again, i'm not saying anything like 'go muta you will be always safe of VRs', i'm just saying that if it's part of your game plan, Muta are ok. I'll try to upload this replay from yesterday, when i go from speedling/banelings busted attack to Muta just in time to repel 5 VR. [Edit] :There he is : http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/4309 -Kerm | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
I can play games where 2.5 Hydra's (one low on health, for those who don't get it) take on 4 Void Rays. VR's suck vs Hydra's no matter what. | ||
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Yeld
Austria106 Posts
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Tidesson
55 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
The Void Rays beat them through sheer force of numbers, and none of them ever hit full charge. If you think VRs are overpowered because of the OP, you're a dumbass. | ||
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DeeD
Sweden88 Posts
- Micro/stall his zeals by kiting, remember that creep gives you a speed boost - Spore crawlers (more of them in case he decides to harass minerallines) - Attack or expand earlier, having 2 bases in this situation is simply not enough if he turtles - Spread creep with a queen/OL - Larva vomit more frequently - Focus on spending your resources instead of letting them build up for no purpose But most of all, micromicromicro. You gain no advantage whatsoever by just a-clicking with the army composition he has.. | ||
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Rising_Phoenix
United States370 Posts
My thoughts is as soon as you see or even think VR is coming, plop down an evo chamber, get hydra tech, and start getting pumping queens as a holder. IT will also allow you to macro better late game and spread creep faster, though I still dislike it because it makes your counter such a predictable liability any good P player can quickly switch tech and just cream you. | ||
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:14 University wrote: 2. notice timings and guess that Void Rays are coming out (early) 3. Completely alter build (unless you were planning fast hydra I guess..) and build correct tech 4. Micro hydras against Void Rays on ridiculous Blizzard Maps. It's not that Void Rays are imbalanced, they're just really not fun to play against because of the skill difference it takes to counter them. I have to be far better than my enemy in order to deal with VRs and at my level it is just awful and not fun. I think a lot of people are feeling the same way. For me, Void Rays completely force my hand, and if I am late by just a small timing they decimate my base. On some maps, Void Rays can snipe tech placed in the back of the base while out of range of marines and hydras, which is ridiculous. I think part of the problem is the maps, which have all this ridiculous space on the outsides, and the part of the problem is that they force the Zerg into a very predictable tech pattern. I'm not saying they're imbalanced, I'm just pitching some of the reasons they are really not fun for lower level players who don't quite have the APM to scout, macro, tech, and micro at 100%. I know that I need to just be better, and that if my play were tighter I could get an advantage out of knowing they're going Void Rays, but right now I just struggle a lot against this tactic, which I think is a common feeling among gold/silver players. This is it right here. Look no further. It is so easy to build a couple void rays without changing your main army while it is a pain in the ass to deal with them with no real solution besides altering your build to counter one stupid unit. It's not just low levels. Defending against void rays is as boring as it gets. "Wow! You noticed that blizzard downgraded zerg anti-air between sequels and buffed your air repertoire significantly? You're so clever for getting void rays." | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
On May 10 2010 02:05 Fruscainte wrote: Zerg has plenty of AA. I don't know why people think it's so bad, Hydra's do so great with the range upgrade and 1-1 upgrades; which you should be getting no matter what. I mean, this guy got 4 carriers and like, 7 hydra's held him off (I got replays too if necessary) The point is that getting GtA conflicts with expanding or any other plans you had. This leads to a very stale "safe" build for zerg against POSSIBLE air because you can't apply early pressure properly and tech while expanding. I love hydras. I think they are strong as hell. But I'm tired of being forced to get them. Terran does not need to alter their build to accommodate a void ray attack, neither does toss. | ||
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OPSavioR
Sweden1465 Posts
edit: i played alot of toss nubs lastnight a guy in plat with 50 APM and went 2gate and transition into voidray , its like the ultimate counter to FE , first he pressure you so you cant "drone pump" and FE makes you get slower lair and then voidrays fuck you all over. i stopped FE for now :/ | ||
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mesobored123
United States62 Posts
Your economy sucked even if you were 2 bases to his 1 he still had better economy than you. You didn't have to pump those extra lings after that first zealot attack (lings generally suck vs zealots unless you surround and out number them) they could have been roachs (who are good against zealots) or drones (for better economy). He didn't even harass you with VR and you still had a bad economy. VR isn't your problem, your problem was your bad economy and you decision to attack. Oh and for half the game you didn't even use your natural hatch and it had 3 larva all the time. And the map was scrap station what did you expect? | ||
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chiss
Australia27 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:53 Tin_Foil wrote: Don't listen to matt.... I know this is going to sound unhelpful, but hydras are cost effective versus voidrays, so he probably just macroed better. Another thing is to catch the VRs while they don't have a charge. having charge up makes VRs about twice as good. Twice as good vs Non-Armored. A hell of a lot gooder against Armored! (5x Better) | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:58 baconbits wrote: Void Rays are range 7 Hydralisks are range 6 with upgrade, voids still outrange. And hydras only work in an even engagement, aka, voids are not charged yet. If you expect to take out 8+ voids with hydras, when voids are fully charged, you're gonna lose your hydras. 8 fully charged voids will insta-gib 2 hydras every damage tick lol? If he's massing void rays and your massing hydra's you should easily have more hydra's then he has void rays... If he has had the time to make 8 void rays you should have had the time to make a lot more hydra's. | ||
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Phokus
United States31 Posts
1. once u hit lair tech the first thing u should ALWAYS get is the overlord speed. 2. sac overlords for scouting ( easy as pie for anyone ) no need for crazy apm. DONT BE STUPID AND SUPPLY BLOCK YOURSELF 3. if u see the early core drone HARD you will have SUCH the advantage if u stop the VRs. 4. get an early evo chamber up and be ready to drop spores 5. EXTRA queens are invaluable. just let 2 sit at your base AND expo (if u have one) and let them interchange spawn larv. this should give them PLENTY of mana to heal each other back and forth. by the time they can widdle either queen down the other 2 from your main/expo should be there. not to mention how much quicker they will be there if a nice creep highway between bases. the VR rush NEEDS to do lots of damage so u will see 1.. 2 at first. this right here is key u MUST beat the first couple and if u do, u win. i have no problems with OL scout into a few extra queens, stopping the attack, and pushing his one base over with mass roach. i FE in every MU. if u scout u are prepared. p.s usually (excluding good players) if they are VR rushing there will be minimal to no scouting on their end. so they will be playing in the dark. | ||
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lipebra
Brazil130 Posts
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Anxiety
United States650 Posts
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Meatloaf
Spain664 Posts
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Lollersauce
United States357 Posts
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puril
United States43 Posts
OP's micro on first battle was bad. you should not lose queen to a few zealots, and roaches can hit and run against zealots until you spawn enough to swarm them. I think in this case, you should have gone mutas rather than hydras. hydras are easy to push while you already have an advantage, but since you were already behind 5 mins in. the logical choice would have been mutas, try to keep him in his base, while u catch up in drone production, and try to make him over commit, while u tech switch to hydra. to summarize: 1. dont lose queen 2. work on roach micro vs. zealots (move stop move stop etc) 3. dont go hydras if you are so far behind. | ||
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Highwayman
United States181 Posts
1-basing is a poor response to all the cheese Terran/Protoss can throw at you because your income will most often be at a disadvantage (especially vs Terran) and you will probably lose to anybody good anyway. You'll feel safe and things will be less stressful and unpredictable, but you're just hindering yourself. One thing I've noticed is that just getting a hatchery down and not putting drones mining at it for a while so you can defend all of the BS is very advantageous because you can immediately saturate it and take a huge income lead at the precise moment you defend. Not only that but it gives you a better place to ramp up on spine crawlers in the face of a heavy early ground attack, and when you put a FE down there's some psychological trigger in almost every player's mind that says "attack now!" so you can use it as bait to bring them to your defensive advantage. Spine/spore crawlers are your friends vs this mentality. I would say just be careful about making too many spore crawlers without scouting a commitment to air, while you can be more liberal with spine crawlers because you can push the line further throughout the game. Getting an evo chamber down with your hydra den is reasonable because you'll want to get +1 ranged attack anyway, and you can make 1-2 spore crawlers along with a few hydras. It seems to me that skipping either one is probably a bad idea. | ||
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Arakash
Germany124 Posts
At least it could make it easier to kill some of them. Also if he abuses the 7 range over your 6, maybe infestors could help. But thats only theorycraft on my side. But it works in my head | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Yeah, like Banshee and Muta harass ever did. This name-calling is fun. | ||
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Rising_Phoenix
United States370 Posts
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
A 250 min/150 gas unit that takes a shitload of time to build is basically as tier 3 as it can get; the only thing more powerful protoss has is a Carrier.. So if someone gets 5 ultras early and dominates every ground army in the game, will you bitch that "omg ultras are impossible to beat"?? A number of void rays under 5 is easy to stop if you know how to micro. Once it gets over 5, then you should of seen it coming and got the proper counter units, since for a protoss to get 5 void rays it takes a shitload of min and gas, and time. at LEAST 1250 minerals and 750 gas. I can understand terran having slight issues with void rays, but ZERG?? are you kidding me? Hydras take out void rays in seconds, even in mass. 12 hydras with micro should be able to take out 5 void rays, and thats even cost.. just wait til your insane mass larva pumps out way more hydras. Not to mention hydras are fast to build, void rays are slow. Mix in afew mutas to harass/distract from the hydras and its as easy as pie to go vs void rays. Its not like protoss can harass zerg early with his 1-2 void ray either, because queens + transfusion stops that easily. You need 2-3+ void rays to even enter a zerg base. | ||
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stockton
United States128 Posts
1. not enough drones. not even close. 2. spawn larvae. 3. SPAWN LARVAE you missed this soooo many times that your queen got up to 200 energy. 4. grab a 2nd queen at your expo. you never did this and is very necessary. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On May 10 2010 04:08 Skyze wrote: void rays are SOO expensive and time-consuming compared to the other races counterpart (banshees are cheap and fast, so are mutas omg).. I find it so comical that people complain about void rays A 250 min/150 gas unit that takes a shitload of time to build is basically as tier 3 as it can get; the only thing more powerful protoss has is a Carrier.. So if someone gets 5 ultras early and dominates every ground army in the game, will you bitch that "omg ultras are impossible to beat"?? A number of void rays under 5 is easy to stop if you know how to micro. Once it gets over 5, then you should of seen it coming and got the proper counter units, since for a protoss to get 5 void rays it takes a shitload of min and gas, and time. at LEAST 1250 minerals and 750 gas. I can understand terran having slight issues with void rays, but ZERG?? are you kidding me? Hydras take out void rays in seconds, even in mass. 12 hydras with micro should be able to take out 5 void rays, and thats even cost.. just wait til your insane mass larva pumps out way more hydras. Not to mention hydras are fast to build, void rays are slow. Mix in afew mutas to harass/distract from the hydras and its as easy as pie to go vs void rays. Its not like protoss can harass zerg early with his 1-2 void ray either, because queens + transfusion stops that easily. You need 2-3+ void rays to even enter a zerg base. Void rays are expensive but have the capacity to deal so much more damage then the mutalisk in low numbers. 3 mutalisks is stupid but 3 void rays can toast a hatchery pretty damn fast. Only reason void ray is better then banshee is that it can shoot air so their isn't an obvious counter like muta for zerg or viking for terran. Tier 3 doesn't refer to the cost only. It's the time it takes to get there as well. pool -> lair -> infestation -> hive -> ultra =/= gate -> core -> stargate Also ultras aren't useful without dual ups while void rays are perfectly fine right out of the box. Also no one is going to complain about them because there are obvious counters easily accessible in the early game. Have you seen how fast void rays can come? Save chronos early and you get a solid number fast. And have you tried massing hydralisks off of 2 base? You are right 12 hydras > 5 void rays but when are they ever going to directly engage you on open ground? Ok so now you are suggesting mutalisks (100gas) which require spire (200 gas) when you don't even have a strong enough gas income for hydras alone? | ||
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jbN
United States2 Posts
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teamliquid.net
United States1 Post
On May 08 2010 23:41 folke123 wrote: So, i've just been beaten by a mass voidray attack. I went for a 14 pool 16 hatch. He got some early zlots and did some dmg. I managed to scout his double stargate and started making hydras. I then tried to move out but my hydras just died to his mass of void rays. Any tips on how I should beat this? or any other tips regarding my gameplay replay: http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/4142 Did you try attacking with your drones? Just a thought... | ||
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CosmicAC
United States238 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:14 University wrote: Void rays are just so difficult to deal with for lower level players, because of the skill gap in using different units. Void Rays: 1. build right buildings and make probes 2. build void rays, press C a few times 3. Micro void rays (not incredibly difficult) Countering Early Void Rays: 1. scout early and spot cyber core 2. notice timings and guess that Void Rays are coming out (early) 3. Completely alter build (unless you were planning fast hydra I guess..) and build correct tech 4. Micro hydras against Void Rays on ridiculous Blizzard Maps. It's not that Void Rays are imbalanced, they're just really not fun to play against because of the skill difference it takes to counter them. I have to be far better than my enemy in order to deal with VRs and at my level it is just awful and not fun. I think a lot of people are feeling the same way. For me, Void Rays completely force my hand, and if I am late by just a small timing they decimate my base. On some maps, Void Rays can snipe tech placed in the back of the base while out of range of marines and hydras, which is ridiculous. I think part of the problem is the maps, which have all this ridiculous space on the outsides, and the part of the problem is that they force the Zerg into a very predictable tech pattern. I'm not saying they're imbalanced, I'm just pitching some of the reasons they are really not fun for lower level players who don't quite have the APM to scout, macro, tech, and micro at 100%. I know that I need to just be better, and that if my play were tighter I could get an advantage out of knowing they're going Void Rays, but right now I just struggle a lot against this tactic, which I think is a common feeling among gold/silver players. Ok... so your saying that all you ahve to do to pull off a void ray build is just to build them? Building them is the easiest part bro. You have to hold off their pressure, as any player would put on you if they see you teching or expanding. Why dont' you try to do that? Anyways, if you want to counter the void rays, you'll have to attack before he builds up critcall mass. At OP: It seems like his zealots must have done a LOT of damage to you if you weren't able to build enough hydras to stop the void rays, on 2 bases. If you saw that he was going void rays straight after the zealots, you should have pressured him right there. A | ||
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folke123
Sweden133 Posts
and how do you guys hotkey your queens and hatcheries? because as you can see I always forget spawn larva | ||
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OPSavioR
Sweden1465 Posts
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On May 09 2010 16:35 Chen wrote: wtf? mutas are EXTREMELY cost effective vs void rays, i dont know what game you've been playing. considering the relative # of each unit due to cost and that mutas dictate where fights occur, mutas destroy void rays. although it is a bad idea to go air vs void ray rush though mainly since you will never be able to get mutas out in time. No, mutas do not counter voidrays. 2 mutas costs as much as a void ray (more if you consider that gas is more valuable and that it costs more food), comes later in tech and barely beats a void ray, they lose hard to the voidray if it starts charged. Trying to micro the mutalisks is useless since he can move while shooting and got way longer range giving him a lot of free shots if you try to do it so it is better to just stay and take the charged beam. The only cost effective zerg counter is hydralisks, if you beat em with mutalisks it is because you outmacroed him. | ||
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Dex4
Germany19 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Kratisto
United States199 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:14 University wrote: Void rays are just so difficult to deal with for lower level players, because of the skill gap in using different units. Void Rays: 1. build right buildings and make probes 2. build void rays, press C a few times 3. Micro void rays (not incredibly difficult) Countering Early Void Rays: 1. scout early and spot cyber core 2. notice timings and guess that Void Rays are coming out (early) 3. Completely alter build (unless you were planning fast hydra I guess..) and build correct tech 4. Micro hydras against Void Rays on ridiculous Blizzard Maps. Cool straw man, bro, but I think I can do it for any unit in the game. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
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blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
If you miss that window, then you should try the following: 1. mass hydras, or some other anti-air unit. 2. If the anti-air tech seems like it'll be late, then try to mass queens, even if they aren't good against voidrays, they will still do some damage to help stall for your anti-air. | ||
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numbingeuphoria
United States17 Posts
This particular match he would try to lure me into his chokes and cannons to minimize my hydra numbers but the trick is to engage on your terms. I was able to nydus the back of his base and force him to go against all my hydras at once and 16 VR lost horribly to 26+ hydra with over 20 left. | ||
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NeonFlare
Finland1307 Posts
Mass hydra and infestor with fungal spores and so on seem to drop them on their tracks, if your base isn't at edge of some platform you might want to try keep all those hydra burrowed before you pop fungal spores and try to unburrow about straight underneath them, resulting in them being pretty much taking the maximum damage and not being able to escape. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On May 10 2010 08:05 Klockan3 wrote: No, mutas do not counter voidrays. 2 mutas costs as much as a void ray (more if you consider that gas is more valuable and that it costs more food), comes later in tech and barely beats a void ray, they lose hard to the voidray if it starts charged. Trying to micro the mutalisks is useless since he can move while shooting and got way longer range giving him a lot of free shots if you try to do it so it is better to just stay and take the charged beam. The only cost effective zerg counter is hydralisks, if you beat em with mutalisks it is because you outmacroed him. mutas are not that bad against void rays, the problem really lies in the fact that if u build em he can come with 1 zeal 1 sentry 1 stalker and you lost.^^ | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
If he's already in your base and charged off your Queen or something, you could have problems, but any other time, you have no excuse. | ||
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beenizzle
United States141 Posts
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Wehrendzehrer
United States7 Posts
With this in mind, the only times I've lost games to Void Ray pushes are when I had a 3-4 expo economy is when I A) didn't build Spores to stall, B) didn't upgrade and/or C) had comparatively poor macro, didn't micro, and didn't scout. Use your Overlords to see them coming and thus give yourself more time to anticipate the attack. Backstabbing the P is sometimes an option, if you feel you can produce more Hydras fast enough in the case it becomes a race. Remember, though: leaving any opponent alone to their own devices is a bad idea. Keeping up harassment, macroing, and forcing the P to react is probably to best way prevent Void Rays from becoming an issue in the first place. | ||
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goszar
Belarus119 Posts
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zGenesis
United States2 Posts
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mend
United States4 Posts
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
13p, 100gas speed, hatch after speed, mass ~36 ling Just power that wall down. If he's trying to do any tricky early robo or VR, simply kill him before he can get it out. Also, drone scouting as long as possible helps. Don't rely on your ovie scout. The drone scout also delays whatever he's trying to do and sometimes gets to the P base before an ovie can. | ||
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OverSight
United States104 Posts
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RicoFeng
China5 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:58 baconbits wrote: Void Rays are range 7 Hydralisks are range 6 with upgrade, voids still outrange. And hydras only work in an even engagement, aka, voids are not charged yet. If you expect to take out 8+ voids with hydras, when voids are fully charged, you're gonna lose your hydras. 8 fully charged voids will insta-gib 2 hydras every damage tick Void Rays have decresed range from 7 to 6 by a patch. | ||
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Skeyser
Canada219 Posts
On August 13 2010 11:51 RicoFeng wrote: Void Rays have decresed range from 7 to 6 by a patch. Look at the date of the post you quoted, may 9. | ||
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Anxiety
United States650 Posts
On August 13 2010 12:01 Skeyser wrote: Look at the date of the post you quoted, may 9. anyway, why was this thread bumped? lol may9. | ||
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Tvetan
United States9 Posts
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zGenesis
United States2 Posts
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