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On May 09 2010 01:02 Floophead_III wrote:
DO NOT GO AIR. Mutas are not cost effective and corruptors suck. If P is having success with voidrays to begin with he'll probably get voidray speed eventually in which case your mobility advantage is gone and you're totally boned. In addition he can easily switch to phoenix to kill the mutas off.
Go pure hydras and get infestors. Fungal growth will keep voidrays from running allowing your hydras to kill them. Don't be afraid to make a lot of spores too to defend new expos. It's very hard to defend 3+ bases with hydra alone, especially if you don't have creep highways.
this sounds like the proper initiative, take your third, make spores and keep up the hydra production and eventually get a few infesters to support them.
Ive been having alot of trouble with this sort of tech because it comes so early, compared to me when i do a 14 pool/ hatch i barely get out enough queens and spores to deflect the initial 2 rays ,or worse one phenix one ray.
What really janks my chain or basically every time any race goes air and i stick to ground is that my overlords get shot down and i end up fighting in the dark.
after the first voidrays, you dont know if hes going to commit to air or if hes going to switch back to collossii.
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On May 09 2010 01:04 DragonDefonce wrote:
If you opponent masses voidrays that early, get hydras to defend, be ready to give up a hatchery, and send zerglings in his main. He shouldn't have much to defend.
The most important thing about voidrays is that they need to be charged up. They are incredibly strong when charged against every unit, but abysmal when they are not. Abuse that fact, and kite them around to coerce them into loosing the charges.
The issue with kiting is that VR can charge on a friendly unit like a zealot before going into your base and the charge remains for quite some time. The only real "counter" is 2-1 ratio of hydras, and isn't necessarily easy.
On May 09 2010 01:22 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 01:02 Floophead_III wrote:
DO NOT GO AIR. Mutas are not cost effective and corruptors suck. If P is having success with voidrays to begin with he'll probably get voidray speed eventually in which case your mobility advantage is gone and you're totally boned. In addition he can easily switch to phoenix to kill the mutas off.
Go pure hydras and get infestors. Fungal growth will keep voidrays from running allowing your hydras to kill them. Don't be afraid to make a lot of spores too to defend new expos. It's very hard to defend 3+ bases with hydra alone, especially if you don't have creep highways. this sounds like the proper initiative, take your third, make spores and keep up the hydra production and eventually get a few infesters to support them. Ive been having alot of trouble with this sort of tech because it comes so early, compared to me when i do a 14 pool/ hatch i barely get out enough queens and spores to deflect the initial 2 rays ,or worse one phenix one ray. What really janks my chain or basically every time any race goes air and i stick to ground is that my overlords get shot down and i end up fighting in the dark. after the first voidrays, you dont know if hes going to commit to air or if hes going to switch back to collossii.
Colossus is quite a time expensive (and cost expensive) tech venture if he started with Void Rays. That should give you a lot of time to tech/expand/mass.
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Quite frankly, I've seen so many T/p rush to tier 2 that I delay my expo until I get my lair tech going.
My hydras take out their first voidrays right as my expo kicks in, toss up some spore crawlers, and I knock on their front door to win or cripple.
Void rays are one of the ways toss punishes Zerg for fast expo. Other solutions I've seen are getting three queens and microing/using transfusion.
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just get 4 queens when you scout and see the void rays till you get the right counter (hydras). i don't see how zergs lose to void rays.
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On May 09 2010 00:56 SadSatyr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 00:14 University wrote:
For me, Void Rays completely force my hand, and if I am late by just a small timing they decimate my base. On some maps, Void Rays can snipe tech placed in the back of the base while out of range of marines and hydras, which is ridiculous. I think part of the problem is the maps, which have all this ridiculous space on the outsides, and the part of the problem is that they force the Zerg into a very predictable tech pattern.
This is actually the part that worries me. I have a hard time against VRs as well, but prior to the last patch I often went for fast muta to do some harassment and I was able to hold off the VRs about 50% of the time. Post this patch though I'm really concerned because early muta in low numbers isn't viable against toss anymore because of how badly the nix owns them. That means I have to go hydra to have any chance against VR so he can make 2 VR force me to go hydra, then switch to colossi and I'm in a world of hurt. ZvP used to be my best match up, since the patch I'm really afraid of it, lol. If anyone has any suggestions for how to deal with this that would be great. Sacking overlords to scout doesn't always work. They don't have speed by the time you have to decide what tech building to use, and a properly blocked choke will deny you the ability to scout them. Do we always mass hydra while playing in the dark now?
If you go hydra, and you expect him to go collosus, then now the shoe is on the other foot and you are forcing HIS hand. Use that.... its the whole point oif a strategy game. It'll be really funny when you kill his rays with 8 hydras, then when collossi show up, like you knew they would, your infestors you made in advance win you the game.
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voidrays softcounter fast expand, since it takes a bit longer for you to tech up. Against protoss, it might be wise to send an early drone to scout, and if you see them go early core, don't fast expand and either fast tech to hydra or mass speed lings/baneling, which should still give you the advantage since going voidrays puts a significant dent in the protoss's economy.
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one thing you need to remember is that VR are fucking expensive for toss players
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I watched the initial replay in the OP, and it just seems like a poor build order against the Protoss' plan, and then a poor strategic decision to attack from behind at the end.
1) He starts with a fast 2 gate zealot rush that catches you offguard. You end up losing 900 minerals of units to his 500 minerals, and lose a queen during your Lair teching.
2) Despite being on a fast second base, you were always behind the Protoss in income throughout the entire game. This was only exacerbated as the game went on and the Protoss took a second base.
3) After you fell-behind early, you massed up units for an all-in near the end of the match. This would seem to be a mistake as you've been behind in economy all game so it stands to reason that marching across the map into the Toss' base would result in you experiencing a much larger force.
4) You don't scout ahead of your attack meaning that you don't realize what his unit comp is until you see the void-rays.
5) You attacked 12 Zealots, 1 Immortal, and 8 Void Rays with 9 Zerglings, 15 Hydralisks, and 2 Roaches. You had 5 Hydralisks en route but hadn't arrived yet, and 1 Zergling was at the watch tower.
6) Your queen had 200/200 energy when you pushed your attack and you had no queen at your expansion.
I just think there's a lot of things wrong with this replay before talking about the potential strength of Void Rays. I'm not saying you're bad, but I think just attributing the loss to OP massing of air is mislabeling it a fair fair bit. The first Void Ray didn't even hit until the 9min mark, and he only had 8 zealots to your (at that time) 12 Zeglings, 3 Hydras, and 2 Roaches. If you had spent a little more time/focus macro'ing early game after the rush you could have flown right into that timing window and done some significant damage.
EDIT: Just double checked again and your queens only vomited larva 3 times total in an 18 minute match while you had two hatcheries up from the 4:30 mark and had a queen up initially at 4:35.
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Place tech in the middle of your base, that way you can maximise the time hydras can damage the void rays since most blizzard maps are gay and has empty space at the edges (where hydras can obviously not move to)
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I think once void ray is charged up they are most cost effective unit in the game probably?
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On May 09 2010 00:24 danbel1005 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2010 23:55 Roqu wrote:
after i lost 4 of 4 matches i stopped laddering as well. LMAO this is hilarious. It really is. Ima take that as a joke cuz seriously I cant think about it as a real thing. What I do see is you losing the next 2 to 3 games and then quitting SC2. GL with that. 
It is probably going to happen to you as well. Though, I think you did top out at D-, so you might be a top plat player in SC2.
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According to DUSTIN BROWDER aka the strategy god himself, you are supposed to get infestors to counter void rays. Don't let that NP research time deter you, just do it and you shall win.
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you didnt lose to void rays, you lost to the initial zealot attack, after that point he could pretty much make any army and still stomp you
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When i play Zerg i almost always just assume voids and move towards hydras, as long as you keep scouting, you should be able to counter any early agression with roaches, and then when lair pops Hydra den goes up immediately. A couple hydras and your queen should be able to stop a few voids until you can push
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just make infestors and steal his void rays, and lol@him. infact just make nothing but infestors, you can fungal growth and steal units all day long while they are immobilized. Imo, infest his void rays then growth his zealots and use his own void rays to kill him.
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Hydras should dominate void rays. You were probably just behind economically and would have lost to other strategies.
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If you can learn the lalush build, you should be able to counter void rays fairly easily... especially if you use your overpool zerglings to scout his base a decent amount. If the protoss has two gas, and you can stay long enough to see if he is putting down another gateway or not you should be able to figure out what he is doing... on top of that you should already be on your way to hydras. The few times i have done this in lower ranked platinum matches I have hydras popping right about the time when the voids show up in my base. If they rushed rays, and now you have your hydras, the game should be pretty much yours. (from what I have experienced at least, I may be wrong)
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On May 09 2010 03:47 Lollersauce wrote:
According to DUSTIN BROWDER aka the strategy god himself, you are supposed to get infestors to counter void rays. Don't let that NP research time deter you, just do it and you shall win.
he doesn't say use infestors to counter early void rays he said it's now an option to counter void rays (obviously later in the game). unless of course you've talked to him yourself and know exactly what all of his strats are.....
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On May 09 2010 04:26 panther1389 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 03:47 Lollersauce wrote:
According to DUSTIN BROWDER aka the strategy god himself, you are supposed to get infestors to counter void rays. Don't let that NP research time deter you, just do it and you shall win. he doesn't say use infestors to counter early void rays he said it's now an option to counter void rays (obviously later in the game). unless of course you've talked to him yourself and know exactly what all of his strats are.....
Yeah, too bad Zerg needs help against early void rays and not really "later in the game".
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On May 09 2010 04:26 panther1389 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 03:47 Lollersauce wrote:
According to DUSTIN BROWDER aka the strategy god himself, you are supposed to get infestors to counter void rays. Don't let that NP research time deter you, just do it and you shall win. he doesn't say use infestors to counter early void rays he said it's now an option to counter void rays (obviously later in the game). unless of course you've talked to him yourself and know exactly what all of his strats are.....
I got rushed in a custom game (the guy was low level so this is just really a poor example but I figured I would share anyway) I had just fast teched straight to infestors to see what i could do with them. I had about 5 out when he pushed the rocks in blistering with an army of stalkers, zealots, and 2 void rays  two of the infestors mind controlled the fully charged rays, while the others just chain fungal'd his army... it was pretty funny.
On the topic of rays, when the enemy gets to a large amount of rays, they really reach somewhat of a critical mass, where all of them focus firing even with their small beam, instagibs units almost instantly... and since their damage is nearly instant from when they fire, they just slice through their targets insanely fast. If you are zerg and dont just have an overwhelming amount of units to push through it, you are kind of screwed. I see infestors being able to devastate something like that (though to be honest I have only seen void rays in this amount on 2v2 games)
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EPT
