On July 23 2010 09:10 Umie wrote: this build is crap. any 4 gate push, or even 3 gate 1 stargate with fast void, will decimate a 1/1/1. best opening against toss is a 7 minute ghost, marine, marauder push; then expanding into marines and medevacs, double port shees or mech.
im very much against 1/1/1 in general, unless it's TvT but even then it's debatable, because there are better openings, and good players will severely punish your lack of direction to tech up. in addition, rushing a raven serves next to no purpose. you could be using those resources to exert pressure on the opponent.
Wait, 1/1/1 is debatable in TvT? What? TvT is either one of two things at the moment. You either 1/1/1 and get marines/tanks/vikings, or, you get 1/1/1 and get fast banshee and push with marines, a hellion and a banshee to exploit the time before siege finishes (of a player going the other 1/1/1 build I described).
See how both include 1/1/1? If you don't 1/1/1, you lose air control, then BANG, you'd need to outnumber his tanks like 6 to 1 since he will have the scouting for their insane range. And how does rushing a Raven serve next to no purpose. Did you read the build, it kinda points out quite a few purposes...
Wrong. I never 1/1/1 and I win tons of TvTs vs high level players. You don't need a starport at all til BCs are a threat. Read my posts about TvT and you'll understand.
Care to point them out to me? I'm not sure where to look. I mean I'm completely open to seeing it done a different way (keen even, the mass vikings can get a little boring) but its just that I have literally never seen a non 1/1/1 build used (or at least something close to it, with at least one of each building). The closest was day9 talking about marauder/thor, but ive never seen it in action. Hell, the 1/1/1 fast banshee was the first variation I saw, on Gretorp's stream. I even tried the marauder/thor, but it is a very fine line between winning and getting annihilated by sieged tanks. And the starport gives you the air control to not have your mech done in by abusing its non-mobility. So yeah, please do tell. I was just describing what I've seen and experienced, but Im keen for other strategies.
Edit: To clarify, any non-cheesy build that doesn't included 1/1/1. I know you could 3/4 rax and abuse the timing window before siege gets up, or something similar, but it doesn't really have a good followthrough.
Gotta love the new posters that dunno what they are talking about. And yes, the strength of 1/1/1 is the ability to react defensively in a variety of ways to lots of Protoss all-ins.
The people saying you cannot be aggressive have not played it enough. You can be aggressive with a 1/1/1 opening, but if you do play defensively, then yes, protoss can get their expansion up a lot before yours. That is purely dependent on your style.
You can get the second factory very early on your reactor and cut all marine production if they are expoing, which lends to lots of drop play. Or you can get more barracks and push out with tanks/marauders/pdd and expo behind it. There's a lot of stuff you can do with 1/1/1, including banshee play.
If you want to play some type of more aggressive opening, then 1/1/1 is not for you. 2-3 rax or 2rax fact will suit you more, so go do those.
1/1/1 is solid because you will almost never die to all-in attempts if you play it right and react and scout well. You also will almost never outright kill the opponent though. So basically, if you think you are better than your opponent, it's a great build, or if you are unfamiliar with your opponent or have no idea what they will do in a series, it's a solid build to use as well.
It works great laddering as well because ladder for some people is a massive cheese/aggro fest sometimes. So you'll win a lot of games from just simply defending an all-in from P, taking your natural and rolling out like 2-3 min later.
That is the strength - the versatility of the opening and transitions you can do from it. Since banshees are stronger than wraiths, and PDD is usefull against stalkers, 1/1/1 will always be good, whereas in SC1 1/1/1 would only offer you a fast vessel, dmatrix, and drops essentially - not to mention there were no add-on swaps and you needed a science facility.
The motivation for this post is to discuss the opening of 1/1/1 for a transition into mech and its weaknesses.
First of some general observations, which will be the base for my argumentation. **Constructing a good mech build against Protoss is harder compared to a TvZ Mechbuild, because of the following factors (feel free to disagree, but please critize in a constructive manner): - The threat of air early (Void Ray) compared to BW mech, where P was forced to start of with ground. - Blink Stalker harass and Tank snipes. Forces you to be more carefully and ideally requires more support. - Immortals crushing unsupported Tanks. - Especially as matchups arent as standarized as in BW one need a very flexible opening to account for all the different possibilties (my solution / suggestion will follow). - If Protoss spots your 1/1/1 opening / fast Factory they have a strong motivation to open with a Robo, which offers protection against Banshees, ways to deal with low / early Tanks and finally a way to deal with (mass) Marine due to the Colossus. -With 1/1/1 i still feel a little bit flimsy against very aggresive builds. Especially reactoring my barracks that early. Having this production delay and no Marauders makes it a little bit weak in my eyes. -Where the flexibilty of 1/1/1 is nice, i dont like the builds progression, because you have to take your second gas very early, which makes you weak to gas steals and my biggest concern: Delays the expansion by a huge amount. I always try to open in a way that i take one gas, start CC with my first 400 leftover minerals and then place my second gas immediatly. This gives you the 4 Gas much earlier also. I tested the suggesting opening, which gives you 1 reactored barracks, 1 Fac, 1 Starport. Producing off all of these doesnt give me my expansion in a timely fashion, unless i cut production of one of these, which makes the build a little bit inefficient in my eyes.
These points are enough for now, because it dont want to prove that the 1/1/1 is bad, but simply that there alternatives that have other advantages: For now i am stuck with Gretorps Marine + Ghost opener (2 Barracks, one with Tech Lab for Ghost and Marauder production). I think i dont have to explain why this is a good opener. For me it works because i can start my Expo really fast and it gives me options against all Protoss builds.
Having the Ghost before the Tanks is the correct order in my opinion, even if Protoss decided to go a none Immortal centric opener like Void Ray or Blink Stalker. In case of VR Ghost Marine offers a very solid defense. Against Blink Stalker it is also very good, because it has the capacity to quickly start producing Marauders of two Barracks. Gretorps transition is to add two more Barracks after the CC and then tech to Starport for Medivacs and or air dominance. In case of mech, i just would take the opener (2Barracks Marine Ghost into CC) and would follow it up with a mech transition by starting my factory after the CC alongside with the second Gas. Then one could either add a second factory or a Starport depending on the protoss build.
To sum it up here are my main points for choosing this opening: -Great flexibilty of Marine Ghost against any kind of Protoss opening. Also makes oneself less predictable, because one could follow up this opening with a bio transition. This leads to lower chance of P choosing the correct counter. -Great transition and really fast expansion (compared to the strong tech and timing push capacities of a direct 1/1/1). -Early Ghosts, which should be one of the core units in every TvP (none-all-in) build, again i see Ghosts as a precondition for using Tanks sucessfully.
PS: There should be a seperate discussion about TLO's Barracks, Factory, Barracks opening, which gives you great capacities for an early push, but might lack in terms of versatility (at least this was my impression from the King of the Beta tourney games)..
I think if you go 1/1/1 vs toss, it's wise not to get ravens immediately (use EMPs/scans instead to kill observers). You've really sacrifised your army strength and expasion ability so you should really be getting banshees to harass. This is seen in IntotheRainBow's T v P style against Tester. It takes mad micro skills to pull off though.
Otherwise, to go mech, I'd advise forgoing the starport until much later (when collossi comes out or when you have a decent bio support to need medivacs). It's important to spend your precious gas into tanks and ghosts which will allow you to defend your natual expansion.
You can do just as well, if not better, with twice as many Void Rays with Flux Vanes. After Interceptor costs, 2 Void Rays are about equal to one Carrier in cost. Its so, so easy in a game at that late expansiony stage to sneak a blob of Void Rays in somewhere, charge them up to full long before Vikings show up and then rape the everloving shit out of the Vikings (full charge + speed upgrade + Vikings being Armoured = good fucking luck, buddy!) when they finally show up to defend.
The only thing that's going to stop you at that point is lots, and lots, of Marines, which are stuck on the ground and immobile as all hell on a map like that.
I did like his response to the Marine + Tank + Raven combo, by dropping a Council and starting the Zealot charge upgrade before he even started building the Nexus, but he had the good fortune of being on a really big map. That combo is just unstoppable on a map like Steppes.
You can do just as well, if not better, with twice as many Void Rays with Flux Vanes. After Interceptor costs, 2 Void Rays are about equal to one Carrier in cost. Its so, so easy in a game at that late expansiony stage to sneak a blob of Void Rays in somewhere, charge them up to full long before Vikings show up and then rape the everloving shit out of the Vikings (full charge + speed upgrade + Vikings being Armoured = good fucking luck, buddy!) when they finally show up to defend.
The only thing that's going to stop you at that point is lots, and lots, of Marines, which are stuck on the ground and immobile as all hell on a map like that.
I did like his response to the Marine + Tank + Raven combo, by dropping a Council and starting the Zealot charge upgrade before he even started building the Nexus, but he had the good fortune of being on a really big map. That combo is just unstoppable on a map like Steppes.
Actually in large numbers thors + ghosts decimates voidrays. The mobility is the biggest issue. Vikings also do just fine, especially once they can focus out voidrays in 1 volley. You aren't going to usually be able to get away with that kind of an investment easily as well. Remember, voidrays don't have 4 armor base.
You can do just as well, if not better, with twice as many Void Rays with Flux Vanes. After Interceptor costs, 2 Void Rays are about equal to one Carrier in cost. Its so, so easy in a game at that late expansiony stage to sneak a blob of Void Rays in somewhere, charge them up to full long before Vikings show up and then rape the everloving shit out of the Vikings (full charge + speed upgrade + Vikings being Armoured = good fucking luck, buddy!) when they finally show up to defend.
The only thing that's going to stop you at that point is lots, and lots, of Marines, which are stuck on the ground and immobile as all hell on a map like that.
I did like his response to the Marine + Tank + Raven combo, by dropping a Council and starting the Zealot charge upgrade before he even started building the Nexus, but he had the good fortune of being on a really big map. That combo is just unstoppable on a map like Steppes.
Actually in large numbers thors + ghosts decimates voidrays. The mobility is the biggest issue. Vikings also do just fine, especially once they can focus out voidrays in 1 volley. You aren't going to usually be able to get away with that kind of an investment easily as well. Remember, voidrays don't have 4 armor base.
No way, Thors are just as squishy as Vikings and they certainly aren't going to be responding to Void Ray threats the least bit quickly.
Ghosts can certainly swing the fight in the Viking's favour, but you can always run away if you're boxed into a corner like that, recharge and find a new target to hit.
The Vikings can get off about two free volleys, but once those Void Rays close the distance they drop like panties at prom. If they're completely uncharged, then you only need about one Viking to every Void Ray (1 to 1), but I'd estimate you need at LEAST 50% more gas spent on Vikings to win the fight with just Vikings alone if they're fully charged (3 to 1).
I've won a lot of long PvT games doing this and I honestly think its borderline overpowered. But, you really need a lot of time to pull it off and deal with many other back and forth situations before you can think of deploying it. Its not like you can just rush a handful of flux-vaned Void Rays and win without a care. You need to establish yourself beyond the mid-game first.
On July 23 2010 09:10 Umie wrote: this build is crap. any 4 gate push, or even 3 gate 1 stargate with fast void, will decimate a 1/1/1. best opening against toss is a 7 minute ghost, marine, marauder push; then expanding into marines and medevacs, double port shees or mech.
im very much against 1/1/1 in general, unless it's TvT but even then it's debatable, because there are better openings, and good players will severely punish your lack of direction to tech up. in addition, rushing a raven serves next to no purpose. you could be using those resources to exert pressure on the opponent.
LOL
You realize that 1/1/1 was created in order to counter precisely those builds you were talking about? x] This build easily counters any kind of stargate tech rush. Additionally, the tanks will easily stop a standard 4-gate push.
Only problem with this build is that there's not as much early aggression so Toss can get a free expo.
It just soft counters nearly all tech plays that a Toss can pull off.
This build also assumes that a toss can't stop 3 ghosts from harassing (Warpgates GG) and that the Terran has map control. Fat chance that the Terran has map control as this build is so reactive that Toss can just build more stuff.
On July 28 2010 10:16 Percutio wrote: 1/1/1 Doesn't counter anything really.
It just soft counters nearly all tech plays that a Toss can pull off.
This build also assumes that a toss can't stop 3 ghosts from harassing (Warpgates GG) and that the Terran has map control. Fat chance that the Terran has map control as this build is so reactive that Toss can just build more stuff.
yah, it really is a soft counter and reactionary. And yah, carriers also are incredibly strong late game, as well as mass voids versus this - if you don't scan it or scout it =/ carriers are pretty insane.
Nonetheless it seems really good for ladders as you are safe against a lot of different styles. Sure, it might be weak against a heavy macro player but the ladders aren't stacked with a lot of those.
this build doesnt work. protoss goes void rays. gg. DUR SCOUT IT DUMBASS NASD. you cant.. you scout 3/4 gate they throw up stargate elsewhere cause of proxy pylons. VOIDS ARE IMBA AND OP v T right now.. if you do '1/1/1' and they dont have void rays you lose. if you dont do 1/1/1 and they do go void rays you lose. i dont understand why more pros dont go for voids cause they are so incredibly cheap. there is nothing T can do about it. and then throw in 'fazing' which people dont even need to use (and dont i dont know why) and its complete and utter destruction.
Void Rays are exceptionally effective but the 1/1/1 raven opening build is the best build you've got for it. It's all about tight mechanics with void ray. You have to stay entirely in-base, and you have to bunker to not die on a bad angle on your wall. Move marines at very fast respond times to void ray blips on the map and never let the viking stop moving so you can kite with it. Matching 1 to 1 viking to void ray either you micro the void ray down and push with marine/tank/raven and it's auto-gg or they micromanage void ray over stalker and then you push and as long as you have good unit position on your push it's gg.
I think if Terran push this 1/1/1 marine-tank-raven hard enough it'll move Protoss completely off one-base attack-attack aggression. The only 1 base protoss crap that gave me pause was lots of phoenix, losing a game to some guy named nony, but it was rare and I had an inexperienced response.
Standard supply-rax 1/1/1 against P was very powerful for a while. Good protoss players have learned to beat 1/1/1 builds (or at least make them much more difficult) as its popularity boomed. There's a number of reasons I don't run these builds anymore:
1) Very vulnerable to gas steals. Opponents who exploit this by sending stalkers up your ramp while you try to shoot the assimilator make it even worse. Most 1/1/1 compositions can not be supported off one gas (for reference, producing siege tanks alone takes about one refinery operating at full capacity worth of production) 2) Relatively easy for P to get an army that can hold off early pushes and expand before you 3) Difficult to apply early pressure/harassment 4) Gives the other player time to get basically anything they desire. Chargelots for example.
There is the TLO-style supply-refinery-rax into reaper/hellion 1/1/1 that may become more popular due to the fact that you can apply early pressure much more easily as well as finish the 1/1/1 progression around 30 seconds faster. This is dangerous on two-player maps, especially small ones, though.
Recently it seems that the rax-fac-rax opening is more popular vs toss than the rax-fac-port opening due to the stability of marauder marine in the early-midgame. Hellion harass and the threat of a runby is usually enough to keep the toss in their base (which is what you want until you get your ghosts + tanks in larger #s).
With the R-F-R you really need to scout agressively with your hellions when you are harassing, make sure there are no DTs or Voids coming your way.
EPT
