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On July 11 2010 12:25 avilo wrote:I just edited OP with 1/1/1 next to raven opening, as when I made this guide I did not realize it was referred to as 1/1/1 in korea or wherever. if some mod could edit title as "Ghost mech Terran + 1/1/1Raven vs Protoss" that'd be great  as for the guide, nothing really has changed so far one way or another despite tank nerfs and other buffs/nerfs, so should be good to go still
Could you please add some Phase 2 Replays?
That would be awesome.
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I'm curious, aside from wanting to go 100% mech (aside from the ghosts) don't you find that a marine/marauder combo works better to support the tanks against toss? Hellions just do so little if he moves away from a zealot heavy composition I seem to find.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I never read this thread cause I didn't know it was a raven opening (which is the best tvp opening imo) but this strategy is really well put together. I was looking for ways to incorporate ghosts into my marine, hellion, tank, raven, Viking army and this thread has a lot of ideas. So thanks avilo.
I can't look at the reps now but I think its a good idea to make 15-20 rines to be safe against any sneaky air transitions by protoss. I don't like to overproduce vikings (what terran does?) And sometimes I get caught off guard by 5 carriers or voidrays 
On July 11 2010 17:27 TheOracle wrote:
I'm curious, aside from wanting to go 100% mech (aside from the ghosts) don't you find that a marine/marauder combo works better to support the tanks against toss? Hellions just do so little if he moves away from a zealot heavy composition I seem to find.
you don't want too many rines late game because colossi will rip through them in seconds and you want to save your gas for tanks. Tbh you don't even need ghosts in your main army if you have a critical mass of tanks and you need all the gas you can spare to get there ASAP. Hellions are good at taking hits from colo and are better meatshields in general than rines.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On July 11 2010 16:18 ahcho00 wrote:
ok maybe someone can answer this for me. this build works great btw, but i have some trouble when they go fast blink stalkers. i figured i could get bunkers or what? how do i stop 10-12 blinking stalkers with about 2 tanks/5-6 marines? and the raven will come out soon if that.
You should have more units than that when protoss has 12 stalkers with blink. Work on your macro is the only advice I can give.
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On July 11 2010 22:21 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 16:18 ahcho00 wrote:
ok maybe someone can answer this for me. this build works great btw, but i have some trouble when they go fast blink stalkers. i figured i could get bunkers or what? how do i stop 10-12 blinking stalkers with about 2 tanks/5-6 marines? and the raven will come out soon if that. You should have more units than that when protoss has 12 stalkers with blink. Work on your macro is the only advice I can give.
If you rush for a raven you might not have that many units. It's why I go siege expo without a port. I have more tanks, siege mode, and I can even get a turret by my tanks to keep obs away so you can't blink up there. I might even have a ghost by then which really helps considering stalkers are 80/80.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On July 12 2010 01:34 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 22:21 infinity21 wrote:On July 11 2010 16:18 ahcho00 wrote:
ok maybe someone can answer this for me. this build works great btw, but i have some trouble when they go fast blink stalkers. i figured i could get bunkers or what? how do i stop 10-12 blinking stalkers with about 2 tanks/5-6 marines? and the raven will come out soon if that. You should have more units than that when protoss has 12 stalkers with blink. Work on your macro is the only advice I can give. If you rush for a raven you might not have that many units. It's why I go siege expo without a port. I have more tanks, siege mode, and I can even get a turret by my tanks to keep obs away so you can't blink up there. I might even have a ghost by then which really helps considering stalkers are 80/80.
Ya you won't have 6 tanks but you should have enough to defend provided you went 2 rax or reactor-rax. I haven't had problems defending blink stalkers as long as I didn't try to transition to Hellions.
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no my macro is completely fine cuz i'm always making scvs =) and upkeeping supply. nevermind i figured out why i lost that round cuz i went 2 tanks first before the raven.
i figured that the raven before tanks is more crucial than tank before the raven....that's fail for me for not completely reading the guide LOL.
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Hey guys, would any of you happen to have any good replays of this build to share from the current patch?
Replays that show how to deal with Void Rays would help greatly. As well as any others.
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On July 12 2010 04:32 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2010 01:34 Floophead_III wrote:On July 11 2010 22:21 infinity21 wrote:On July 11 2010 16:18 ahcho00 wrote:
ok maybe someone can answer this for me. this build works great btw, but i have some trouble when they go fast blink stalkers. i figured i could get bunkers or what? how do i stop 10-12 blinking stalkers with about 2 tanks/5-6 marines? and the raven will come out soon if that. You should have more units than that when protoss has 12 stalkers with blink. Work on your macro is the only advice I can give. If you rush for a raven you might not have that many units. It's why I go siege expo without a port. I have more tanks, siege mode, and I can even get a turret by my tanks to keep obs away so you can't blink up there. I might even have a ghost by then which really helps considering stalkers are 80/80. Ya you won't have 6 tanks but you should have enough to defend provided you went 2 rax or reactor-rax. I haven't had problems defending blink stalkers as long as I didn't try to transition to Hellions.
Well the issue is that they can blink past your defenses and just run around your base causing havok while they expo freely. You don't even need that many stalkers, 5-6 can 1 shot scvs and marines so you can do quite a bit of harass. When you have 10-12 and you can't use pdd because the stalkers will just run away to another spot, you have a serious problem. That many stalkers can clear out tanks super fast and then dance around your useless marines.
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I want to say thanks for this build, it has done me very well. Took a few games to really get the feeling of it, but it gets really strong. Recently I've been getting owned if a Protoss sees that I'm doing this. They rush fast expo into 2 gate stalker with obs. Then by the time I'm ready to push out the econ is pretty solid on the protoss.
What seems to be working is 1 gas factory siege into fast CC. I need to play some more with it to see how it is.
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On July 16 2010 03:30 Galneryus wrote:
What seems to be working is 1 gas factory siege into fast CC. I need to play some more with it to see how it is.
I think this BO has potential. I'll try it out tonight.
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Hey, so I've been doing this build for a while, and I absolutely love it to death, but there are a few questions I have to ask.
First off, how do you deal with gas steal? I find that it completely throws me off.
Second, I've been struggeling in early game with this build in maps like blistering sands and kulas ravine, because of early pressure and backdoor busts. I guess I need to get siege mode earlier and focus on defending the backdoor? I haven't tried this actually, so I will.
Third, and this is a more general question about the 1/1/1 build, but how do you deal with hidden tech? When you know its hidden but can't find it (this sucks especially on a 4 player map) do you just assume void rays? DT's seem alot less threatening, but if its just a regular early immortal push, and your rolling with vikings.. you get the idea.
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Excellent topic, I will give it a try. Thanks for putting so much effort into explaining your build.
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On July 17 2010 00:36 Wrist wrote:
Hey, so I've been doing this build for a while, and I absolutely love it to death, but there are a few questions I have to ask.
First off, how do you deal with gas steal? I find that it completely throws me off.
Second, I've been struggeling in early game with this build in maps like blistering sands and kulas ravine, because of early pressure and backdoor busts. I guess I need to get siege mode earlier and focus on defending the backdoor? I haven't tried this actually, so I will.
Third, and this is a more general question about the 1/1/1 build, but how do you deal with hidden tech? When you know its hidden but can't find it (this sucks especially on a 4 player map) do you just assume void rays? DT's seem alot less threatening, but if its just a regular early immortal push, and your rolling with vikings.. you get the idea.
If they gas steal you can choose to kill the gas right away with scvs/marine, or you can take the small gas hit and increase your marine count by adding on a second barracks or marauders. Or just accept the slightly later 1 ref.
As for blistering/kulas, you definitely want to get siege asap there, because 4gates and blink stalkers are common there, and siege mode pretty much is the answer to those builds. As for mid-late game on those maps, you want to completely block off one of the entrances to your base, usually the smaller one near your nat, and then use the rocks as an exit. That also allows you to push towards protoss's gold and another expo on that side of the map with the xel naga tower as well.
You definitely want to control the ground right outside of your natural's choke/the rocks on that map.
And as for hidden tech, I sort of made it a rule of thumb in my mind that if I thought they were proxying a building, but I did not know what it is, then the safest bet is to always build vikings instead of banshees. That way you don't insta-die to proxy void rays, you can counter hidden phoenixes, hidden DTS is no problem with raven first, and versus 4gates or 3gate robo immortal/collosus the viking will still be able to help in the ground or the air.
That's just a rule I made for myself so I do not die to random all-ins or proxies, has worked pretty well so far, even gotten the random idiots calling you hacker for building vikings to counter voidrays you had "no idea were coming." lol. Although if you are very sure they are going 3gate robo, or 4 gate, banshee with your tanks/marines is better than vikings.
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On July 17 2010 22:53 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 00:36 Wrist wrote:
Hey, so I've been doing this build for a while, and I absolutely love it to death, but there are a few questions I have to ask.
First off, how do you deal with gas steal? I find that it completely throws me off.
Second, I've been struggeling in early game with this build in maps like blistering sands and kulas ravine, because of early pressure and backdoor busts. I guess I need to get siege mode earlier and focus on defending the backdoor? I haven't tried this actually, so I will.
Third, and this is a more general question about the 1/1/1 build, but how do you deal with hidden tech? When you know its hidden but can't find it (this sucks especially on a 4 player map) do you just assume void rays? DT's seem alot less threatening, but if its just a regular early immortal push, and your rolling with vikings.. you get the idea. If they gas steal you can choose to kill the gas right away with scvs/marine, or you can take the small gas hit and increase your marine count by adding on a second barracks or marauders. Or just accept the slightly later 1 ref. As for blistering/kulas, you definitely want to get siege asap there, because 4gates and blink stalkers are common there, and siege mode pretty much is the answer to those builds. As for mid-late game on those maps, you want to completely block off one of the entrances to your base, usually the smaller one near your nat, and then use the rocks as an exit. That also allows you to push towards protoss's gold and another expo on that side of the map with the xel naga tower as well. You definitely want to control the ground right outside of your natural's choke/the rocks on that map. And as for hidden tech, I sort of made it a rule of thumb in my mind that if I thought they were proxying a building, but I did not know what it is, then the safest bet is to always build vikings instead of banshees. That way you don't insta-die to proxy void rays, you can counter hidden phoenixes, hidden DTS is no problem with raven first, and versus 4gates or 3gate robo immortal/collosus the viking will still be able to help in the ground or the air. That's just a rule I made for myself so I do not die to random all-ins or proxies, has worked pretty well so far, even gotten the random idiots calling you hacker for building vikings to counter voidrays you had "no idea were coming." lol. Although if you are very sure they are going 3gate robo, or 4 gate, banshee with your tanks/marines is better than vikings.
I find it interesting you say throw down a 2nd rax. I open with 1 gas til cc starts normally anyways. The extra minerals allow you to expand faster, and you can just use bunkers if you need more defense. I would NEVER throw down another rax.
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On July 18 2010 01:50 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 22:53 avilo wrote:On July 17 2010 00:36 Wrist wrote:
Hey, so I've been doing this build for a while, and I absolutely love it to death, but there are a few questions I have to ask.
First off, how do you deal with gas steal? I find that it completely throws me off.
Second, I've been struggeling in early game with this build in maps like blistering sands and kulas ravine, because of early pressure and backdoor busts. I guess I need to get siege mode earlier and focus on defending the backdoor? I haven't tried this actually, so I will.
Third, and this is a more general question about the 1/1/1 build, but how do you deal with hidden tech? When you know its hidden but can't find it (this sucks especially on a 4 player map) do you just assume void rays? DT's seem alot less threatening, but if its just a regular early immortal push, and your rolling with vikings.. you get the idea. If they gas steal you can choose to kill the gas right away with scvs/marine, or you can take the small gas hit and increase your marine count by adding on a second barracks or marauders. Or just accept the slightly later 1 ref. As for blistering/kulas, you definitely want to get siege asap there, because 4gates and blink stalkers are common there, and siege mode pretty much is the answer to those builds. As for mid-late game on those maps, you want to completely block off one of the entrances to your base, usually the smaller one near your nat, and then use the rocks as an exit. That also allows you to push towards protoss's gold and another expo on that side of the map with the xel naga tower as well. You definitely want to control the ground right outside of your natural's choke/the rocks on that map. And as for hidden tech, I sort of made it a rule of thumb in my mind that if I thought they were proxying a building, but I did not know what it is, then the safest bet is to always build vikings instead of banshees. That way you don't insta-die to proxy void rays, you can counter hidden phoenixes, hidden DTS is no problem with raven first, and versus 4gates or 3gate robo immortal/collosus the viking will still be able to help in the ground or the air. That's just a rule I made for myself so I do not die to random all-ins or proxies, has worked pretty well so far, even gotten the random idiots calling you hacker for building vikings to counter voidrays you had "no idea were coming." lol. Although if you are very sure they are going 3gate robo, or 4 gate, banshee with your tanks/marines is better than vikings. I find it interesting you say throw down a 2nd rax. I open with 1 gas til cc starts normally anyways. The extra minerals allow you to expand faster, and you can just use bunkers if you need more defense. I would NEVER throw down another rax.
well, lots of people like bio, so a second rax would work out for them. Otherwise, faster CC is good too. Second rax seems like it would also help vs voidrays since you'll have less gas for vikings but slightly more minerals if you don't kill the geyser with scvs. Lately I try to kill the gas asap with like 8 scvs. I dunno how much that slows you down though.
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I think it's kind of sad when a race becomes so strong that they move to a less effective build in order to challenge themselves. Ah well, not my problem I play terran!
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this build is crap. any 4 gate push, or even 3 gate 1 stargate with fast void, will decimate a 1/1/1. best opening against toss is a 7 minute ghost, marine, marauder push; then expanding into marines and medevacs, double port shees or mech.
im very much against 1/1/1 in general, unless it's TvT but even then it's debatable, because there are better openings, and good players will severely punish your lack of direction to tech up. in addition, rushing a raven serves next to no purpose. you could be using those resources to exert pressure on the opponent.
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On July 16 2010 03:30 Galneryus wrote:
I want to say thanks for this build, it has done me very well. Took a few games to really get the feeling of it, but it gets really strong. Recently I've been getting owned if a Protoss sees that I'm doing this. They rush fast expo into 2 gate stalker with obs. Then by the time I'm ready to push out the econ is pretty solid on the protoss.
What seems to be working is 1 gas factory siege into fast CC. I need to play some more with it to see how it is.
I donno how I missed this post earlier, but this is exactly what I've been doing.
1/1/1 builds automatically lose if scouted early enough. Protoss can actually expand off 1 gate and have an expo + 4 or more gateways and a robo or other tech done by the push timing. The push that comes just hits too late. You can push with your first 2 tanks and marines and do damage or win but terran is basically in the dark unless they spot the expo going down. They have to assume it's not safe unless they spot the expo.
edit: to the poster above me. No allin strategies work vs 1/1/1. It is the strongest defensive build which is why people started using it. It's only weakness is that it can't be aggressive so protoss can expand easily. The original purpose of 1/1/1 was to combat voidrays. You can't be serious when you say 3 gate stargate beats it. I'm going to assume that you're new here and haven't spent much time lurking since you don't seem to understand how this game works or how to post nicely.
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On July 23 2010 09:10 Umie wrote:
this build is crap. any 4 gate push, or even 3 gate 1 stargate with fast void, will decimate a 1/1/1. best opening against toss is a 7 minute ghost, marine, marauder push; then expanding into marines and medevacs, double port shees or mech.
im very much against 1/1/1 in general, unless it's TvT but even then it's debatable, because there are better openings, and good players will severely punish your lack of direction to tech up. in addition, rushing a raven serves next to no purpose. you could be using those resources to exert pressure on the opponent.
Wait, 1/1/1 is debatable in TvT? What? TvT is either one of two things at the moment. You either 1/1/1 and get marines/tanks/vikings, or, you get 1/1/1 and get fast banshee and push with marines, a hellion and a banshee to exploit the time before siege finishes (of a player going the other 1/1/1 build I described).
See how both include 1/1/1? If you don't 1/1/1, you lose air control, then BANG, you'd need to outnumber his tanks like 6 to 1 since he will have the scouting for their insane range. And how does rushing a Raven serve next to no purpose. Did you read the build, it kinda points out quite a few purposes...
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EPT
