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So I've been playing a lot recently, and lord and behold, I find myself getting terran mirror matches a good... 60% of the time.
Now, as a previous zerg player now playing T... I just haaatttteeeee mirror matches. It revolves around 60% luck, 20% scouting, and 30% timing (there is a 10% overlap between timing and luck)
So every TvT match I grudgingly go forth and attempt to secure a win, which I must say, odds dont favor me. I won maybeeee about a quarter of all my TvT matches, possibly less.
Though all the matches I have played so far however, I have came to the following facts about TvT;
Marauders > Thors
Thors > Air
Air >Marauders
which leads to the following;
4 rax opening > Thor opening
Thor opening > banshee opening
Banshee opening > 4 rax opening
(Not always, but its a good green rule to follow)
I am wondering if anyone has had sucess with TvT? Been attempting to find a way to win without any reaper cheese but, well, I'm stumped. I've tried mass mech, fast banshee, mass marauders, hell one time I even used mass ghosts and tried to use its snipe ability... Yeh ill let you picture how well that went.
(also, if anyone could supply with reps that would be AWESOME!)
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Germany886 Posts
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Now, as a previous zerg player now playing T... I just haaatttteeeee mirror matches. It revolves around 60% luck, 20% scouting, and 30% timing (there is a 10% overlap between timing and luck)
I'm a P, so I can't answer this, but I don't feel like a mirror match up is anything close to 60% luck..I don't see why it would be any more luck based than other match ups(I know the issues with BW zvz, but its to early to tell if that sort of thing is going on in SC2). I tend to see it as, you both have the exact same units to work with so, yes scouting is very important, but if you both go very similar builds, whoever does it more effectively wins. I tend to do better in mirrors than in the other match ups...So maybe thats why I don't hate them.
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A heavy bio push (4 rax) early also kills both fast banshee and fast tank openings, as 1-2 tanks falls to a handful of marauders, and 1-2 banshees falls to a handful of marines. Generally you can even kill a few depots very quickly which supply blocks them and makes it even more difficult for them to recover, even if they fend off your first wave. After that, you know to make more marines or more marauders.
I also recently lost a TvT where I went tank/viking and lost to mass MMM, this was mid/late game. Person had like 2 thors in there which mostly just soaked a few tank shots while the MMM got in range. I had never actually lost to that before (I had like 7 or 8 tanks, too), but it was enlightening. I also enjoyed it because of how soundly it beat me; made me want to go back to trying MMM TvT and keep the games out of the annoying tank/viking siege inching crapfest 
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TvT is what's making me not ladder as much as I would want. I could just leave every TvT but then I'd lose 50% of my matches + the ones I lose vs other races.
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I am a lower level player, but this thread might be of use to you:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=122708
The build is overall very solid I think and I use it when I mirror Terrans as well.
I actually switched from Zerg to Terran BECAUSE I find TvT way more enjoyable than ZvZ. I would rather play against a mirror race with lots of units and combination options.
I think finding a mirror you enjoy is a big part of settling on a race.
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I have been doing small reaper harass into a fast banshee with cloaking. Cloaking comes out while the second banshee is building. I have been winning TvT's like crazy (top ten Gold, with a glitch that causes me to never gain bonus pool), seriously I am rarely, rarely losing TvT's with this fast banshee strat. Honestly you don't even need to reaper harass, I just like to add it in there for a little flair, get some map control and scouting and maybe even some SCV kills. But I usually only make 2-3 early game and thats all for the reapers, need the gas too much. Sometimes I'm lazy and don't even bother, just go right for starports.
I get maurader slow, put one or two in my mineral line for potential reapers, then wall in with a bunker and put another two in there. Sometimes in this build I get enough extra minerals to get my second barracks before my first starport for marines, but usually I don't, I'm still tweaking it (I'm thinking if I do that it is a weakness, but the extra marines are nice to have for your opponent's inevitable all in push once you star blowing up all their SCV's and they use their only sweep just to have another banshee fly in right after..
If they go siege tanks, which generally they will in a TvT, you get your banshee there around 6:30 or 7:00 and send it straight for the scv's, the timing is usually very very nice. A good, well timed M&M push before you get banshees will kill you, but not too many people are doing that these days. A lot of people are going siege tank ---> thor right now in my experience. Which is a great build, but I usually beat it with banshees.
And if they do fend it off and the game goes on longer, they start going heavy anti air, and then you transition to marauders and mess their whole day up.
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The thing about mirror is that you can't approach it like the other matchups and think too much in builds since you can potentially have the same units.
I had a lot of trouble with TvT early on too but now I kinda feel like it is my best matchup.
I think the best advice when learning to become better at mirrors is just to play a fuckton of games, because the one thing I've learned about TvT is that it is all about on the fly transitions and intense scouting. TvT is an insanely fast matchup where you just need to be one step ahead of your opponent and you need to be the one forcing the builds. If you go for one build then your opponent is going to counter that build so you should be transitioning into a counter for his counter build at the same time, always being one step ahead.
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Thors don't beat all terran air, BCs slaughter them, even though it seems like they wouldn't. I think this is true even if you don't use/have yamato yet.
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TvT is not as simple as that, try going 1-2 rax marauder with vikings and you will see how interesting the match-up is.
I was the exact same way as you until i saw in a thread how it was reasoned out that marauder is the safest choice between marauder/marine/reaper, and viking was the safest choice between viking/banshee/viking+raven.
Losses I get now are very obvious what I did wrong for TvT, whereas before I would just be thinking, "oh, I didn't know it was coming, didn't know what to do"
This is coming from pretty high level plat ~1700 - 1900
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try going fast banshee cloak into expand marauder.
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On May 03 2010 11:30 HCastorp wrote:
Thors don't beat all terran air, BCs slaughter them, even though it seems like they wouldn't. I think this is true even if you don't use/have yamato yet.
Yah BCs slaughter Thors, one BC with like 6 SCVs repairing can like kill like 6+ THors.
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On May 03 2010 10:57 xav wrote:
A heavy bio push (4 rax) early also kills both fast banshee and fast tank openings, as 1-2 tanks falls to a handful of marauders, and 1-2 banshees falls to a handful of marines. Generally you can even kill a few depots very quickly which supply blocks them and makes it even more difficult for them to recover, even if they fend off your first wave. After that, you know to make more marines or more marauders.
What if the tanks are positioned behind the wall where maurauders can't get to them and Terran also has a small group of maurauders behind wall?
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On May 03 2010 12:58 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 10:57 xav wrote:
A heavy bio push (4 rax) early also kills both fast banshee and fast tank openings, as 1-2 tanks falls to a handful of marauders, and 1-2 banshees falls to a handful of marines. Generally you can even kill a few depots very quickly which supply blocks them and makes it even more difficult for them to recover, even if they fend off your first wave. After that, you know to make more marines or more marauders. What if the tanks are positioned behind the wall where maurauders can't get to them and Terran also has a small group of maurauders behind wall?
I thought that would work, but when I tried it, the person just killed the surrounding structures and then massed enough to kill my few tanks I was able to get up before being supply blocked/etc.
When someone put tanks on their ramp I just stuffed it with marauders/marines and killed the depots and then the tanks. There window where the terran player going tanks and only has 1-3 they're extremely vulnerable.
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Here is a TvT mirror where I basically countered his units perfectly.
1. He goes for early reaper harass. I have a maurader out to defend my mineral line.
2. He goes for MnM and takes my expo. I have tanks and marines to defend my base.
3. He goes for banshees with cloak. I mass vikings + marines.
On top of this, I expanded early and denied his expansions, which allowed me to outmacro him later in the game. This guy is a perfect example of how you should NOT play terran mirror.
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I am a big fan of fast expanding as well in TvT simply because you have the same units, the same costs, the same build timers that even just a slight economic advantage will grow into a massive supply advantage very quickly. Also regardless of how the unit compositions are tossed around one thing remains a steady factor in TvT. You MUST have air superiority or you are dead and this almost always comes down to a game of who can build the most vikings because even if you think there are many options for shutting down your opponents air they are all really immobile beyond the viking and a good player will take advantage of this. Point defense drones nullify both turrets and thors and the player with a viking force will snipe your ravens faster than you can snipe his. Furthermore while marines are strong and relatively fast, banshee's are faster and he can force you to keep wasting scans by dancing away.
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Upgrading Thors will 1 shot a stim'd maruder; Ravens Point Defense Drone will prevent any Maruder damage being done for a few seconds. After the point defense drone the thors should have killed enough Maruders where they don't instantly die.
The issue with going a Mech build is mobility(thor slow, sieges can't move in siege), you cannot just push for their base you have to creep slowly and get position; stopping them from just running guys past your army. I have found sensor towers to be a huge help with a mech build; as it will make up for your lack of being mobile. Just be sure to throw up 2 and not just one on your army as it will give your position away.
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any ideas how to counter mass air (viking+banshee, or mass vikings)?
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On May 04 2010 00:19 PredY wrote:
any ideas how to counter mass air (viking+banshee, or mass vikings)?
1) Mass thor
2) ???
3) lololol
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On May 04 2010 00:20 pyr0ma5ta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 00:19 PredY wrote:
any ideas how to counter mass air (viking+banshee, or mass vikings)? 1) Mass thor 2) ??? 3) lololol
oh yeah that really helped :o
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EPT
