EPT[D] Archon overlooked? - Page 3
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commanderchobo
Canada53 Posts
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PyroKinetiKrlz
22 Posts
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Veetz
Canada109 Posts
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nodule
Canada931 Posts
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Kakisho
United States240 Posts
On May 02 2010 08:29 febreze wrote: They are still good against mutas, splash and all. The splash was completely removed. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
A Zealot costs the same as an Archon minus 300 gas. Why would you ever spend 300 gas for less than 200 extra hps and a slight DPS increase against bio? The only answer I can see, besides building Archons out of HTs that are out of mana, is air. But given that every air unit has longer range than Archons and can fly over obstacles, how do you plan to ever get your Archons into combat with them? For this reason, if you're going to do a timing attack with an Archon, wouldn't it be better to just do it with three more zealots instead? | ||
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MoNoNauT
United States74 Posts
I was testing this with a friend who was playing as the Protoss. The splash was absolutely NOT removed... if it was, it was added in a recent patch. it has a splash range of 1, much larger than the thor AA splash radius, and his archons were completely dominating mutas that weren't micro'ed and scattered out. | ||
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
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Conris
United States79 Posts
On May 02 2010 15:36 MoNoNauT wrote: I was testing this with a friend who was playing as the Protoss. The splash was absolutely NOT removed... if it was, it was added in a recent patch. it has a splash range of 1, much larger than the thor AA splash radius, and his archons were completely dominating mutas that weren't micro'ed and scattered out. splash was never removed, but the radius is small, 3 marines lined up if you target the middle one you'll hit all 3. easiest example at closest range, a drone surround, you'll hit 3 drones at a time, end of story. thor AA splash is...no where near less than archon splash, not to mention air units stack at points, ground does not. the natural scatter range of mutas (click move idle) to an archon means, no splash for you. not about to invest such high tech and cost of building archons to scare off a couple mutas, if the zerg pays any attention to the mutas at all, an archon will def not kill them. having an archon in your army is no different than having HTs as a part of your composition (it's your clutch, and it eats away the numbers in your army) however HT still pulls a little weight if you can afford to get storm fast enough, but archons do not. PvT, archons should rape atleast 1/4 of the bio ball, but it doesn't because it hits too damn slow, 350/50 is nothing honestly. Immortals have hardened shield and marauders focus them down how fast? and like i said before, tested 2archons vs 8 roaches, 2 archons perished, 1 roach went to heaven, unless the guy decides to charge lings at you, but seriously, not that many ppl use lings as meatshields anymore. it doesn't matter if the archon dies within the first 5 seconds of the engagement, but if they can do worthwhile damage, it'd be ok. once again their attack speed is just saddening, can you imagine a corsair from sc1 attacking at half the speed it does now? yes, it would be totally useless. that's where the archon stands. also a sidenote, though the archon took FULL damage from everything minus upgrades, wtf does psionic type unit mean in terms of damage mitigation? redesign the archon, or give templars 10 extra energy when they finish building so they're not completely useless unless you research the energy upgrade, and if they run dry, then they run dry. then again this is SC2 not SC1, archons don't need to be as intimidating as they were in SC1, but honestly, make them useful in anyway please? right off the bat would be when they die they cause damage to enemy units around them, kind of like a lesser baneling, or whatever, but change the damn unit mechanics | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
Archons have roughly the same splash areas. Units do not appear to be smaller in size considering the in game unit used for measurement, and ground units clump a lot more. The big difference here is that mutas do not stack in the same way - in BW an archon would often hit all mutas with 100% damage, while in SC2 he is very likely to hit only one muta with 100% damage. That doesn't have anything to do with archon splash, and increasing the splash area also wouldn't make it the same as in BW. They also have the same range as in BW. The second big difference is that they attack way slower. Attack cooldowns: BW: zealot - 22, Archon - 20 SC2: zealot - 1.2, Archon - 1.754 | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
On May 02 2010 09:01 MoNoNauT wrote: I addressed the issue of massed roaches in the OP. Technically, the Archon will take the exact same amount of damage from roaches as immortals, if the roaches don't have damage upgrades. Archons may not deal 50 damage to roaches, but archons are better all-around units, they take the same supply but cost less minerals meaning they can be supported by more zealots. Archons will also be warped in much faster, and if the push doesn't work, you're already set up for HT tech, which is very good against most zerg armies. To the person that said archons are slow, I don't understand why you'd think that. They move ever-so-slightly faster than speed upgraded zealots, and much faster than non-upgraded 'lots or or roaches. Their attack isn't much slower than the immortals, and against anything but roaches and ultralisks, the Archon deals almost 50% more DPS (!!!). The more I study this unit, the more disappointed I am that it hasn't been used at all, especially when the reason seems to be "dustin browder sux lol" According to SC2Armory, the archon's attack has a splash radius of 1. That's absolutely huge, despite all the complaining that seems to be going on... it's much larger than the thor's AA splash, which dominates mutalisks that are balled up. It also means that any zerglings surrounding the archon will get melted instantly. I think you are a troll.. Archon is a cool unit but when you factor the price of 100m 300g its a terrible terrible unit.. It doesnt deal 50% more DPS then ultra (!!!) Ultra does more then archon with its bonus.. Where did you get your numbers troll.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=115345 Ultras also have more hp and some real splash.. Archons have splash when units overlap. Blizz has said that archon is meant to be something you can do with templars out of energy, not a unit you would want to get normally.. | ||
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Tor
Canada231 Posts
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Kjiiter
18 Posts
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XicalaAera
United States51 Posts
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
I do hope archons and ultras get buffed.. they're simply too weak. On May 02 2010 08:38 dNo_O wrote: pretty sure the bottom line here is that dustin browder is a piece of shit. and the idea that a game's concept should start with "we'll make a bunch of cool units and go from there" is not nearly as blizzard's pre-browder era concepts. don't get me wrong, sc2 is still fun and i will continue playing it, but things like intentionally shitty units just because they overlap with other units is stupid. Right now my biggest problem with the hellion is it isn't fun enough to use. (It should be even more fun). I like browders approach.. and redundancy should be avoided at all costs in a game about balance. | ||
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suejak
Japan545 Posts
I don't think proving that 2 archons loses to 8 roaches proves in itself that archons are useless. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On May 02 2010 20:26 suejak wrote: Somebody do a test of 2 archons vs. however many mutas to get 8 food. How about archons vs. equal food in hydras? I don't think proving that 2 archons loses to 8 roaches proves in itself that archons are useless. Muta are more mobile and have more range. No test is needed. Archons would fail if both players micro. | ||
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
On May 02 2010 20:38 DeCoup wrote: Muta are more mobile and have more range. No test is needed. Archons would fail if both players micro. You can't outmicro archons with mutas, not on this battle.net. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
It's the most effective unit to hallucinate if you are looking for something to soak up damage. 1 archon has 350 shield + 10 hp, 2 zealots have 200 hp and 100 shield, 1 colossus has 200 hp 150 shield and a immortal has 200 hp 100 shield (with hardened shield though evne on illusion). Offcourse a armor upgrade even nullifies this if those work on hallucinations. Besides this archons are only good when high templars are out of energy, there is not a reason ever to forge two dark templar into a archon it seems. Even the high templar merging is only good when you are sure your templar otherwise just die because with the 17 sec merge time the archon will come too late too really help in the battle usually. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 02 2010 06:48 MoNoNauT wrote: First of all, I need to say that I am strictly a Zerg player and know absolutely nothing about playing Protoss other than just watching tourneys. I think this is by far the most important part of your post. I would love a chance to go against a player doing your build. As a zerg player, you should understand what roach/hydra would do to zealot/archon. In fact, the P's only chance would be Storm. | ||
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