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latest update: added reaper expand to the openings section (5/10/2010)
**Note: this is still a work in progress, as I will add in replays once more become available. If anyone can point me to top players using a build, OR can point me to at least 3 platinum level replays of the build being used successfully, I will gladly add it to the guide 
**Note: I am also open to additions from the community, as always. BUT, I'm not adding anything to the guide based on a one-liner, or a one- or two-sentence post. If you have a suggestion for the guide, put some thought into your post, and provide at least a few platinum replays showing your counter/build/army in action, and I will be more than happy to put it in.
Introduction
So, the Beta has been out awhile, and there have been a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE amount of games played in the last few months.
Even though there is more or less a new patch each week, I think enough games have been played that some common strategies & builds are starting to emerge.
This guide is for the TvZ matchup in SC2. It is not simply for how to play the game, it is for how to play the game well. There will be no basics covered in this guide, as it assumes you already know the basics, and you want to get good. I won't go over unit counters, UI tricks, hotkeys, or how to micro units.
I wouldn't say I'm really good at this game yet, but I am a decent mid-level plat player. A reset happened just a few days ago, so I'm not 100% sure where I stand, but I am currently top 20 in my plat division with about 1350 points.
So without further ado, a TvZ guide, for getting to the platinum level, and staying there. I realize platinum level doesn't mean you're totally awesome at the game, but it's a good goal for many to shoot for, and it's certainly the first major step any player will take on the road to becoming good
TvZ Gameflow
+ Show Spoiler +
Essentially, zerg is the one who makes the first move, by deciding whether or not to FE. Terran must react based on this decision. If zerg stays on 1 base, you need to be constantly scouting to see what zerg is doing, and react. If zerg FEs, a large number of options open up to you, and you can decide to FE yourself, or try and put pressure on zerg's expansion with a large variety of builds, such as fast reaper, fast hellions, fast banshees, 1 base hellion/marauder, or 1base MM.
The nature of zerg macro, coupled with the Spawn Larva ability, means that zerg can power drones extremely fast if you let them. I've seen many TvZ where Z does a FE opening, and terran doesn't harass soon enough, and during the mid-game zerg has 10 more drones than terran. This is a bad situation for terran to be in, and against an equally skilled zerg the terran will lose every time. You HAVE to harass zerg, to force them to use their larvae on units instead of drones. If you don't, their economy will grow much faster than yours. If you don't understand why, imagine this: for a small period of time, what if your barracks + factories + starports could also produce SCVs? Yeah, that's how fast zerg can get a whole lot of drones.
If zerg FEs and you decide to pressure, it becomes a battle of how much you can disrupt zerg's economy while expanding and building up an army yourself. In this situation, you dictate how to pressure zerg, and zerg must react to your harass. You are in control of the game at this point. You have an advantage in that you can hide your tech fairly easily by using a wallin, 2 marines, and depots on the edges of your base (to spot incoming slow overlords). Then, once you reach your desired tech, you can move out and ambush zerg.
Once you reach mid-game & late-game, play becomes similar to brood war, by coming down to macro, economy, expansions, and upgrades.
Early-game: Terran Openings
+ Show Spoiler +Fast Reaper+ Show Spoiler +The build:6/8/10rax (there are many variations here, which I'll list below) 6/8/10ref 11 depot @ 100% rax, tech lab @ 100% tech lab, reaper(s) When to use the buildReapers are decent against zerglings while they are off creep, great at killing workers, and do excellent damage against buildings. Because of this, it can easily punish a zerg who does a hatch-first build, as well as a build that either relies on zerglings only for the early game, or doesn't get roaches fast enough. How to use the buildYou should be using your reapers to kill as many workers as you can. If you are fast enough, you can also destroy a zerg's FE hatch if they made the hatch before their pool. However once the zerg player gets a queen and has more than 4 zerglings, reapers quickly start to lose effectiveness. Most reaper openings don't ever get more than 3 reapers. The Fast Reaper opening is not meant to win you the game, only to disrupt the zerg's economy while you transition into something else. What works against this buildThis build works best against an FE build, especially one where the zerg gets a hatchery first. But any kind of 1 base build usually renders the reapers too ineffective to do any economical damage. 1 base builds usually have enough zerglings and/or a queen to chase off your reapers. However, zerg FE is almost a standard build by now, and many zergs do this, so with good micro it is almost always possible to do at least some disruption with this build. VariationsThere are many different variations, but they are all simply for getting your reaper out at various times. But for all the variations, you need to make the refinery immediately after starting the barracks, so that you can have 25 gas ready by the time the barracks finishes to make your tech lab 6/7 rax - the fastest way to get reapers. Usually for this, you will proxy your barracks somewhere closer to the enemy base, so that your 1st reaper can reach your opponent at the absolute fastest time possible. Naturally, you are cutting SCVs almost immediately to do this build, and so this variation is almost always done on 2-player maps only, so that no SCV or time is wasted trying to locate your opponent 8 rax - a bit more economical, the 8 rax is also usually done proxy, to get to your opponent as fast as possible while still maintaining some form of economy. Same as 6/7 rax, this is almost always done on 2-player maps only 10 rax - this one is not as fast as the other two, but still allows your reaper to arrive fast enough to do some damage, and will give you enough minerals to make an OC while your 2nd reaper is being made, letting you quickly catch up in economy. Anything later than 10 rax usually results in the reaper arriving at the enemy base too late to do any significant damage, which will put you behind in economy. 11 rax/11 ref/11 depot might work, but I think it is still too slow. An exception is on maps with a cliff above the nat, you can delay your reapers a bit and still do damage with them. These maps include Kulas Ravine & Lost Temple. replaysLucifroN v HayprO - LucifroN opens with 12 rax reaper, and does very good damage, putting him ahead for the duration of the game. Note the effective use of reapers on this map, with the cliff above the nat. The build10 depot 12 barracks 13 refinery 15 OC @ 100% barracks, 1 marine 16 depot 16 tech lab @ 100% tech lab, reaper 20 nitro packs 20 CC When to use the buildLately some zergs are starting to favor a completely roachless FE opening. They rely on speedlings + spine crawler + queen micro for defense until they can drone up & get to lair and use their lair tech + 2 base macro to gain a large mid-game advantage. 1 base reapers aims to punish a FE zerg for not getting any roaches. Mass nitro reapers can really put the hurt on zerg by killing zerglings, workers, crawlers, and queens. Against a lesser opponent, you can win the game right there. Also, it is harder to move crawlers around, since the root time for crawlers has been doubled as of patch 11. Crawlers won't really work against reapers, so zerg will be forced to use mass speedlings, or switch to roach in order to defend both bases from your constant reaper harass. Keep making reapers if he makes speedlings, and switch over to marauders if he starts making roach. Note that you should only continue to produce reapers until one or more of the following happen: -opponent gets a roach warren -opponent gets any lair tech structure (infestor pit/hydralisk den/spire) -you successfully get your expansion up Once any of these happen, it's time to switch & transition into your mid-game army. With constant harassment and reaper mobility, you should be able to have constant vision of the zerg base, and respond appropriately. How to use the buildThe build basically extends the reaper harass build in order to abuse zerg's lack of roaches. Basically instead of stopping at 2-3 reapers, you keep making reapers until your expansion is up, or if you see zerg get roaches or get lair tech. You should constantly harass zerg at both bases, picking off workers and zerglings and queens as much as possible. Also keep watch for a lair building or a roach warren. The moment you see one of these you should switch over to making the appropriate counter. Reapers will at the very least force zerg to spend money on zerglings and/or crawlers instead of drones. If you are successful, you can also kill workers. Once you get 6 reapers, you can 2-shot a spine crawler. If you can get 9 reapers, you can 3-shot a spawning pool. Not necessary to know, but a good thing to keep in mind during harassment. nitro pack upgrade is a must. Without it, speedlings will quickly surround & kill your reapers. Even with nitro packs, speedlings are faster than reapers, but only by a little bit. Still, that fact means you must always position your reapers with a cliff nearby to escape surrounds. You can safely expand and at the same time defend yourself from zerglings/banelings. This build completely nullifies the baneling bust build. And if zerg decides to go roaches, you already have your barracks with tech lab ready to switch over to marauders. What works against this buildAs mentioned before, roaches & any lair tech shut down reapers completely. As soon as you see roach warren/hydralisk den/spire/infestor pit go down, stop producing reapers immediately and switch over to the appropriate counter. Even if your 1st reaper sees a roach warren, you should stop and switch away from reapers (although you probably still have time to do damage with 2 reapers until roaches come out). replaysJinro v ZpuX - Game 1 of ZOTAC #11 semi-finals (patch 11) Jinro v ZpuX 2 - Game 2 of ZOTAC #11 semi-finals (patch 11) The build10 depot 12 rax @ 100% rax, 4 marines @ 400 minerals, CC (in-base or not) @ 100 minerals, bunker When to use the builda completely safe FE build for TvZ sadly, doesn't exist in SC2, because of a few reasons: -no high-ground advantage means it is harder to hold your expo/ramp against early attacks -a majority of the maps have a backdoor entrance to your main, meaning you will have to defend 2 locations early in the game, which is nearly impossible to do when you do an FE opening -nydus canal at T2 makes it easy for zerg to bypass your choke defenses As such, you should only use a FE opening as a response to a zerg FE opening. Fortunately, zerg's are doing FE openings in a majority of their games, so you will usually have the option of doing an FE opening yourself. How to use the buildTerran FE is a pure economy build. You are forgoing any kind of early harass in favor of powering SCVs and getting a 2 base economy up as fast as possible. As such, you, to a certain degree, pass control of the gameflow back to zerg, as now zerg can decide if he wants to pressure your FE or not, also zerg is now free to tech straight to mutas ASAP after putting down their FE if they want. Make sure you get 2nd OC immediately after your CC finishes building. You'll need constant SCVs + MULEs pumping from both OCs in order to keep up with zerg powering drones, which good zergs WILL do when they see that you won't be able to harass them. Since gameflow has been passed back to zerg, you need to keep constant tabs on what zerg is doing, and adapt accordingly. What works against this buildAny type of 1 base play will absolutely destroy this build, which is why you should only use it as a response to zerg FE. However even with zerg FE you need to be careful. Zerg could scout your FE, and instead of powering drones or teching, zerg could mass up a large group of speedlings, or a fast roach attack. Keep a wallin at your ramp in case of mass speedlings, and make sure to build additional bunkers at your nat if necessary. And as always, keep a depot near your backdoor rocks. replaysTLO v Naugrim FE -> transition into mech (patch 12)
The build
Any opening that gets early gas, such as fast reaper or fast hellions
@ 100% factory, 2 starports
If desired, pre-build the tech labs on the barracks and/or factory
2 banshees immediately when starports have tech-labs
If you want the absolute fastest banshees, pre-build tech-labs on both barracks and factory, and then lift the starports and put them on the tech-labs when they are done
When to use this build
This build should be used primarily against zerg FE builds. A zerg that stays on 1 base can easily get spore crawlers while teching to hydras, and zerg will be able to counter-attack you before you can switch to something else But a zerg that FEs will have to make a lot of spore crawlers to protect two bases. In addition, if you surprise the zerg, you will be able to kill his queen before the other queen can join. Lastly, zerg only has spore crawlers & queens until they get lair.
How to use this build
The best way to use this build is to deny scouting. To do this, make at least 2 marines, possibly 3, to kill any overlords that try to scout your base. Put depots around the perimeter of your base so you can spot overlords as soon as possible. Hid your factory + starports as far away from the edge of your base as possible. Don't put them near your ramp, as zerg will be able to see it by sending a zergling up the ramp. Basically, you should only show your opponent that you have a wallin and 2 or 3 marines, that's it. By surprising your opponent, you deny him the ability to prepare for your banshees by building extra queens and/or spore crawlers.
As soon as your 2 banshees are done, you should go straight to the enemy's base and kill his queens. If you can do this, he will have no AA until he either builds spore crawlers, or until he gets hydras/mutas. If you can kill your opponents queens and he didn't tech to lair fast enough, it's usually GG right there.
Another option if your opponent makes extra queens, but still fails to get a fast lair, is to get cloak. A well-placed cloak will still allow you to destroy his queens until he is able to morph an overseer.
Even if he has hydras + queens/spore crawlers + overseer, you should still try to harass him and force his hydras to stay at home to protect his workers until you can expand yourself
What works against this build
Extra queens and spore crawlers both shut this build down completely. That's why it is so important to deny scouting and surprise your opponent. In addition, if you go straight for banshees without any kind of harassment, zerg can get out mutas if they go straight for spire.
Also, if you take too long to get banshees, or if zerg goes for fast lair -> fast hydra den, he will have hydras when your banshees arrive, so if you see zerg getting fast lair, you may want to get cloak and try to keep him contained.
Because this build is so powerful and has the potential to immediately end the game if zerg is unprepared, just the threat of this build has caused many zerg players to get a fast lair every single game against terran, even if they don't know whether or not you are doing fast banshees. You can use this to your advantage, for example you can deny scouting, but instead of doing fast banshees you can do a 3rax MM build, or mass igniter hellions, or hellion/marauder, and catch your opponent off guard, with only a small handful of hydras and possibly some speedlings.
replays
The build:
10 depot
12 rax
13 ref (3 SCVs on gas when done)
15 OC
@ 100 gas, factory
@ 50 gas, pre-build reactor on the barracks
@ 100% factory & 100% reactor, lift factory and put it on reactor core
2-6 hellions
transition
When to use the build
This build doesn't do very well against zerg 1 base builds, unless the zerg goes for mass speedlings or fast hydras; it is most effective against zerg FE, because the timing of the hellions forces zerg to get speedlings/roaches/crawlers at a time when they want to be making more drones.
If you do fast hellions and zerg goes for 1 base roaches, you are in trouble. Same goes for a zerg that does 1 base mutalisks. Although hellions are decent against hydras, they really need the igniter upgrade to be able to win against hydras. Most zergs who stay on one base are building up for a large roach/ling attack, or fast teching to mutas. Both of these essentially counter fast hellions, so I would only advise using this against a zerg that does an FE opening.
This build is also very effective on maps that have a hard-to-defend nat. At this point, that's really only Desert Oasis, and Kulas Ravine (sort of). Scrap Station used to be in this category, but after patch 9 Blizzard blocked off one of the pathways to the natural, effectively letting zerg defend both bases from a single choke. Hellions can't really bust down a backdoor rocks entrance because of their pitiful damage.
How to use this build
This build is simple to use. It is basically the same as using fast reapers: your goal is to destroy as many drones as possible. Hellions don't do hardly any damage against units that aren't light, so stick to only attacking drones & zerglings with your hellions.
Also, like fast reapers, fast hellions aren't used to win the game outright. They are used to kill drones, and to force zerg to spend their larvae on units instead of drones, to allow you to expand and gain an economic advantage.
Newer zergs will select all of their workers and send them away when they see hellions. This is exactly what you want, as hellions attack is an AOE attack that goes out in a straight line from the hellion. If zerg moves all of their workers somewhere, they will line up and you can easily kill 2-3 drones per attack.
Avoid roaches, and be careful of speedlings. Speedlings on creep can quickly surround your hellions and kill them before they do too much damage. You can essentially ignore queens since they don't do enough damage to kill your hellions before they can roast drones.
What works against this build
As mentioned earlier, 1 base roaches & 1 base mutas are both very good against fast hellions, so if you don't scout a zerg FE, you might want to consider doing a different build. Also mass speedlings is somewhat effective, since hellions that get surrounded don't do much damage.
1 base baneling bust is also a great counter to this build, as a properly executed baneling bust will kill your wall just as your first 2 hellions are done.
Most zergs will have a zergling outside your base, so they will see when your hellions leave your base, and will counter your hellions with a combination of 2 queens, 1-2 spine crawlers, and either 6-12 zerglings or 2-4 roaches. In this case, it comes down to who has the better micro, as you will constantly try to maneuver around roaches/lings/queens/crawlers and try to kill as many drones as possible.
replays
[Patch 10 replays here]
The build:
10 depot
12 rax
13 ref
15 OC
@ 150 minerals, 2nd barracks
@ 150 minerals, 3rd barracks
tech lab on 2nd barracks
2nd refinery
reactor core on 3rd barracks
Note that everything up through the OC can be replaced by the fast reaper opening. Fast reaper can easily transition into 3rax MM
How to use the build
1 base 3 rax MM is a MM timing attack designed to hit zerg right before their lair tech kicks in for a zerg FE, and still be able to deal damage if zerg opted to stay on one base.
Pump marauders from your 2 tech lab barracks, and pump marines from your reactor barracks. Get shells & combat shields. Attack when both of these upgrades finish. If you feel like slightly delaying your attack, get an ebay and +1 attack. Move out when +1 attack is 75% done.
It's a pretty straightforward attack; marauders deal with roaches/banelings/crawlers, and marines deal with zerglings/hydras/mutas.
You can get stim, but you will probably only use it for marauders, and probably only be able to use it once during your attack; it's too expensive to delay your attack & spend 150/150 on stim without having medivacs, stim isn't recommended if going for this build.
When to use this build
This build is good as a timing attack v a zerg who does an FE opening. However, it can also work against 1 base builds. Scout appropriately to see if zerg is going for zerglings, roaches, banelings, or fast teching to hydras or mutas.
What works against this build
Really it comes down to proper unit mix. A good mix of speedling/baneling, or speedling/roach, or speedling/crawler, will deflect this attack. The primary purpose of the build is to punish a FE zerg for being too greedy.
Make sure you deny scouting, so that the zerg doesn't know if you're going fast hellion, fast banshees, thors, siege tanks, etc. and won't be prepared for your timing attack.
replays
[Patch 10 replays here]
The Build
10 depot
12 rax
13 ref
15 OC
@ 150 minerals, 2nd barracks
@ 100 gas, factory
@ 50 gas, pre-build reactor on a barracks
@ 25 gas, tech-lab on barracks
@ 100% factory & 100% reactor, lift factory and put it on reactor
@ 25 gas, 2nd tech-lab on 2nd barracks
@ 50 gas, concussive shell upgrade
At this point, pump marauders from both barracks, and pump hellions from your factory.
Attack when you have 4-6 hellions.
How to use this build
This is another 1 base timing attack, similar to 1 base 3 rax MM. It is more or less used in the same, way, but using hellions instead of marines. Marines are a bit better against roaches, and much better against mutas; but hellions are better against speedlings/banelings/hydras. Hellions are also faster than marines and reward micro more, so if you feel confident in your micro, this build will most likely work better for you.
When to use this build
This build is used mainly as a counter to zerg FE, but it can work decently against a 1 base zerg, just be sure to attack before spire gets up, hellion/marauder has no way of attacking mutas.
What works against this build
Watch out for mass speedling. Once you get 6 hellions, speedlings will die quickly, but until then, speedlings can surround your hellions/marauders. Always be careful of speedling flanks, you want hellions to only have to attack units on one side.
Also, 1 base tech to mutas works against this build if you wait too long to attack. If you scout him getting a lair before expanding, attack as soon as you have some hellions & marauders.
replays
[Patch 10 replays here]
Some of the above builds can be strung together to constantly pressure your opponent and keep him on the defensive. These types of "multi-harass' openings can be very effective with good micro. Some examples include: -fast reaper -> fast banshee: this works because banshees counter the units that kill reapers, namely speedlings/roaches/spine crawlers. By making fast reaper, you can force your opponent to make these, and thus delay his lair & hydras, making it easier for your banshees to kill. -fast hellion -> fast banshee: this works for the same reason that fast reaper -> fast banshee works: it forces your opponent to build things that will be countered by your banshees. In addition, you can build a medivac from your starport and keep dropping hellions in your opponents base. replaysNaama v LaLuSh - Naama goes for fast hellion -> fast banshee + hellion drop, Naama causes so much damage with his constant harassment that he ends the game @ 15 minutes by just a-moving mass marauders into the zerg expansion, didn't even need stim or shells. Joobie v DJBlue - platinum level replay. Terran goes fast reaper -> fast banshee (patch 10). Kas v LaLuSh - fast hellions -> fast banshee. Kas actually makes a refinery before barracks, so that he can make his factory as soon as possible (patch 10). Kas v LaLuSh 2 - same as above, fast hellions -> fast banshee. gas before barracks so the factory can be made as soon as the barracks finishes. Note that this build gets hellions fast enough to deal with a baneling bust (patch 10).
Mid-game & Late-game: Effective Army Compositions
+ Show Spoiler +This section will explain the various effective mid-game strategies Terran can employ in TvZ. I will explain the strengths & weaknesses of each one, and why it works. MMM+ Show Spoiler +MMM stands for Marines, Marauders, & Medivacs. It is the classic M&M from Brood War, but with the addition of marauders. It is very effective with a large group of upgraded marines & marauders, as they can stim, have slow from marauders, and can deal out a huge amount of DPS with attack & armor upgrades. In addition, the medivacs are good at reducing enemy DPS, and lastly with enough medivacs you can transport most if not all of your army to any zerg expansion and quickly take it out with stimmed marauders. Marauders are good against armored units, while marines are good against large amounts of lower-hp units. Once fully upgraded, this combination is fairly strong against most zerg units, and is only countered by an equally large and equally mixed zerg army. However, once the late-game stage is reached, this army has trouble against broodlords, especially if your mix of marines & marauders is heavy on marauders. This can be somewhat countered by vikings, but since you are concentrating on MMM, you probably won't have any vikings when you see the broodlords, unless you manage to scout the greater spire, or you see corruptors late in the game. Also, upgraded hydras + fungal growth are at least even with this army, and depending on your positioning and how quickly you can snipe the infestors, may beat your army. Gas goes into infantry upgrades, barracks tech lab upgrades, marauders, & medivacs. Once you have 3-3 infantry upgrades, 8+ medivacs, concussive shells, combat shields, and stim, your MMM are extremely powerful. Usually 1 starport with reactor core is enough to make enough Medivacs. The factory isn't used at all, feel free to lift this and use it to scout for expansions. Make as many barracks as your resources will allow, usually at least 6 is good for 2 bases. Put reactors on 1 or 2 of the barracks, tech labs on the other 5 or 4. Once you get more than 50 workers, you can support 2-3 more barracks. What MMM is strong againstMMM is strong against most combination of zerg armies. Also, having some barracks with tech labs and other barracks with reactor cores allows you to change your ratio of marine:marauder very quickly. Also having a reactor core on your starport allows you to change from medivacs to vikings quickly. This build is strong against most zerg units. With proper micro, it can handle almost any combination of speedling/roach/baneling/hydra/muta. Just make sure to run your marines behind your marauders if a group of banelings comes rolling at you. Mutas will die to shield marines being healed by medivacs. Speedlings are terrible against a clump of marines & marauders with armor upgrades and being healed by medivacs. They simply don't have the DPS to do anything. Roaches die to marauders, and hydras are even with marauders only with fungal growth support and only if upgrades are equal. Obviously one-dimensional armies like pure hydra or pure roach get destroyed by MMM, although pure hydra can do ok, but only until you get upgrades. Once you get shells + shields + a good number of medivacs, zerg will lose without banelings or muta or infestors. MMM is also good against hydra/roach, which is a popular zerg combination due to the fact that both hydras & roaches share the same attack & armor upgrades. Make sure you keep up with your upgrades against hydra/roach or you will die. What MMM is weak againstMass/pure muta will actually be enough to overwhelm your marines, and if your marines die your medivacs + marauders are helpless against mutas. Thus, if you see mutas, switch ALL of your barracks over to pure marine production for a short while; but only for a short while. Don't go pure marine...banelings will destroy you if you do that. Pure hydra with 2-5 infestors is also very good against this build. Hydras are more or less even with marauders as long as they keep up with upgrades, and fungal growth is devastating against clumped marines, and still decent against marauders. If you see this, you have a couple of options. One option is to stop making marines and focus only on marauders. This may mean you need to lift any barracks off of reactors, and put tech labs on them. Another option is to make a ghost academy as soon as you see infestors, and get ghosts, in order to EMP the infestors. A good mix of speedling/baneling/hydra/infestor is also good against this build. Banelings + fungal growth destroy your marines, and hydra + speedling will do well against marauders. If you start seeing banelings, switch over to pure marauder for awhile, or go for a MMM variation (explained in more detail later) replaysShiver v Medzo - Top-ranked platinum game. Shows MMM v muta/corruptor. MMM variations involve adding something else to your MMM army in order to compensate for the weaknesses of MMM. However this will mean less gas for your infantry attack/armor upgrades, and possibly less medivacs, so make sure you are spending your gas on making the correct units. I'll go over each MMM variation. MMMT - adding ThorsThors are great because they counter mutas just as well as marines do, and they counter hydras better than marines or marauders. Plus, they aren't countered by banelings, which makes them better than marines against a zerg army that has banelings. However, you have to be careful, because as of patch 9 zerg has an excellent way of dealing with Thors - Neural Parasite. After patch 9, NP range was increased back to its original range of 9, making it very easy for infestors to cast NP from behind the hydra/roach arc, making it very difficult to use the rest of your army to kill the infestor. Make sure to immediately stim your marauders and kill the infestors if you see any, because you won't last long if your thors are taken from you and immediately begin destroying your own army. MMMG - adding ghostsGhosts are mainly added to the MMM army in order to counter Infestors by EMP'ing them. Thus, using them is relatively simple: if you see zerg using infestors, you can put down a ghost academy and make some ghosts. If you have a 3rd, also consider getting the cloaking & energy upgrades, as the energy upgrade will allow you to cast an EMP as soon as the ghost is ready. Also, even if you kill off all infestors, you can still use ghosts for nuking & sniping, so they remain useful. MMM + vikingThis is for when you encounter broodlords. Once the game reaches late-game, you should be wary of broodlords. Typically zergs go for hive in order to get broodlords, so scout for hive, greater spire, or corruptors. If you see any of these late game, you should start making vikings to counter the broodlords. If you have been keeping up on your upgrades, 3-3 marines with medivacs are actually very good against 0-0 broodlords, so don't be afraid to use your MMM army to fight broodlords until your vikings arrive. MMM + ravenThis is for handling mass muta, or mass hydra. If you see zerg going for either of these, you can opt for raven. Hydra can more or less be dealt with using MMM w/upgrades, but mass mutas are another story. If you see zerg massing more than 20 mutas, you will have to get either Thors or Ravens to beat them. The reason Ravens are used are for their Seeker Missiles. both Thors & Ravens are effective against mass hydra, or mass muta. The difference is that Thors are countered by Infestors, whereas Ravens are not. Also, roaches are good against thors, whereas they are not good against ravens. So if you see a roach/hydra/infestor army, consider adding Ravens. Seeker Missile is devastating against zerg, and works wonders against baneling clumps, hydra clumps, and especially muta clumps. Ravens can also detect burrowed roaches, burrowed infestors, and can pick off infestors with Seeker Missiles. Lastly, they are also effective against broodlords, which are unable to outrun seeker missile. But you'll need at least 3 seeker missiles to kill a broodlord, since they have 275 health. MMM + tanksTanks are mainly used to kill of hydras or banelings But really, adding Thors gives the same effect, and Thors are more mobile, can be more easily repaired, and can counter mutas as well. I really don't see the benefit of adding tanks to your MMM army when you could add Thors to your MMM army. I don't recommend doing this. MMM + hellionsHellions are added to deal with zerglings + hydras. But as mentioned before, Thors are a better addition against hydras, since they kill them in one shot, and aren't as fragile, and can attack air. And zerglings aren't a problem once you get medivacs and at least +1 armor. I don't recommend adding hellions to your MMM army either. replaysShiver v Maniac Top-ranked platinum game. Terran gets MMMT v Muta/ling/bane Mech involves using factory units as your main army composition. This includes hellions, siege tanks, & Thors. Each of the factory units serves to counter different units: -hellions counter speedlings/hydra -tanks counter roach/banelings/hydra/infestors -Thors counter rbanelings/hydra/muta, later on they counter ultras Mech play requires you to open with siege tanks, they help defend your expansion. Thors are too slow & lack the mobility to properly defend, especially if you're on a map with a backdoor entrance. You'll also want to build turrets when you push out with your siege tanks, since they help detect burrowed roaches, burrowed infestors, and help thors in fending off mutas. Mech play almost always involves only factories, only 1 rax is made as a prerequisite for making factories. Some people make marauders in order to deal with roaches, but proper use of siege tanks together with repaired thors can deal with heavy roach play. Gas goes into making factories, making siege tanks, and making thors. Usually only the +vehicle attack upgrades are used, due to gas scarcity and the fact that sieged tanks and thors greatly benefit from +attack upgrades, and the armor upgrades generally aren't used. What Mech is strong againstMech, when properly used and supported by turrets + SCVs repairing, can counter just about anything, making it viable against most zerg mid-game armies. You need to adjust your unit composition based on what you see zerg getting. If you see more mutas, get more thors & turrets If you see more zerglings, get more hellions If you see more hydras, well all mech units work well against hydras, so you shouldn't need any adjustment If you see more roaches, get more siege tanks If you see more banelings, get less hellions If you see more infestors, get more siege tanks, and less thors On maps with narrow chokes, mech is king, due to siege tanks superior range and splash damage. Good candidates for mech include Kulas Ravine, and Incineration Zone. Blistering Sands is somewhat difficult for zerg to flank on. What Mech is weak againstMech's primary weakness is roaches, infestors, and well-timed flank attacks. Roaches work well against Thors & hellions. They are severely outranged by siege tanks, but if zerg gets drop or burrow, they can get their roaches close to tanks unharmed, and then pop up and destroy them. Infestors can counter Thors so be careful of infestors that are near. Siege Tanks + detection can deal with roaches to a certain degree. Also if you have +3 attack, siege tanks kill roaches in 2 shots, but only until roaches get +2 armor. +2 armor or +3 armor roaches will take 3 hits from a sieged tank. Use SCVs! SCVs are used to repair your thors during battle, and for making turrets to detect burrowed units & help kill mutas. You only need 4-5 SCVs to do this. Mech variation - adding in MaraudersRoach/Infestor is very good against mech, to the point where some feel it is necessary to add in marauder to deal with them. This is especially true since patch 9 restored neural parasite's range back to 9, making it much easier for Infestors to cast NP on your thors. If you decide to add in marauders, make 2-3 rax with tech-labs. Get concussive shells upgrade. Make only enough marauders to deal with roach/infestor. Don't get marauders at the cost of getting thors, if you are lacking thors zerg will switch to muta and wreck you. Make marauders at the cost of a few less tanks, since marauders are more mobile and more efficient at handling roaches than tanks are. replaysMorroW v Naugrim (patch 10)MorroW v Naugrim 2(patch 10)avilo v hybillisk (patch 10)avilo v AddamsFamily (rank #1 plat) (Patch 11)Morrow v HayprO (patch 12) This is essentially just a mix of the above two armies. You adjust your army composition based on what your opponent has. There are a few good viable combinations you can use. You won't have enough gas to get upgrades though - concentrate on getting the infantry attack & vehicle attack upgrades. MedaMarauder + Thor (+ viking)This one is a favorite of mine. Medivacs + Marauders can deal with just about anything on the ground, and are especially powerful against hydra/roach/infestor. Banelings don't work against marauders or thors, speedlings are an issue early game, but once you get +1 armor and medivacs, MedaMarauder handles zerglings just fine. MedaMarauder + Thor also destroys hydra/roach, especially once your marauders get infantry upgrades. Marines aren't used, they are more or less a liability against banelings/fungal growth. Pure mutas are a problem against this, and so are broodlords, so if you see either of these, then switch your barracks over to marines for a short while, get shields upgrade, continue making thors, and switch your reactor starport over to making vikings instead of medivacs for a short while. Basically, your production will be X barracks (2-8+ depending on how many bases you have) all with tech-labs, 1 factory w/tech lab producing thors, 1 starport with reactor producing medivacs until you have enough, then making vikings. You should have enough gas to get both infantry upgrades. Hellion/Marauder/ThorAnother strong combination, hellions are used to deal with speedling/hydra, while marauders & thors deal with everything else. You'll be making lots of thors here, because neither hellion nor marauder can attack air. You can also add in vikings to deal with broodlords, but generally this build doesn't rely on starport units like other combinations. Production for this combination requires at least 3 factories, 1 with reactor, 2 with tech labs, making hellions & thors, while at least 2 rax w/tech lab make marauders. Make sure to get the igniter upgrade for your hellions. ReplaysLucifroN v Kolll - reaper opening -> MedaMarauder + Thor rybaDUNE v DarkSanta - plat 1700s game - T goes for igniter hellion opening -> expand -> Hellion/Marauder/Thor (patch 11)
Responding to Zerg builds
+ Show Spoiler +SC2 is all about hard-counters, so you need to know what to do & how to react to zerg opening builds. This section wille explain what the popular zerg builds are, how you can spot them, and how you should react to them. Baneling bust+ Show Spoiler +
The baneling bust build aims to quickly get 5 banelings and a bunch of speedlings, use the banelings to break your depot wall-in, then flood your base with speedlings and end the game there.
How to spot it
Pretty easy to spot, if you see 1 gas, no expansion, and either an early baneling nest, or if you see an abnormally large amount of zerglings, you can be almost certain zerg is doing a baneling bust.
How to react
How you react depends on what opening you chose. If you chose fast hellion or fast banshee, lift off your barracks/factory, and make a wall at the bottom of your ramp/choke. If you went 1 base, you can simply add an additional bunker/depot/barracks behind your wallin. Note that any kind of tech or FE will usually die to this build, as that is what it is designed to counter. FE especially dies horribly to this, do not FE against this build
The most common build by far, you have lots of options when you spot an FE
How to spot it
Easy to spot, an expansion at zerg's natural, or very soon after putting down spawning pool.
How to react
a zerg who did FE won't be pressuring you, as they will want to power drones and get 2 base economy going as soon as possible. Only you can prevent fores- I mean, only you can prevent them from droning. Pick any build (or a combination) that pressures the zerg:
fast reapers
fast hellions
fast banshee
hellion drop
thor drop
1 base 3 rax MM
1 base hellion/marauder
Use any of these to gain an advantage, and once you have it, expand yourself.
Or, if you want, you can choose to make it a macro game and FE yourself. Be sure to get 2 OC ASAP, as you'll need the MULEs to keep up with zerg's drones.
If you went fast reapers, you can also opt to bunker zerg's expansion hatchery. This is especially effective if zerg went for hatch first.
If zerg tries to FE anywhere else other than they're natural, for example at a high-yield gold mineral expansion, then you should try and bunker it. Most zerg's won't do this because it is extremely riskly, but sometimes it will happen. It will take longer for their zerglings to reach the expansion, and their queen won't be able to make it in time. If they went for pool -> FE at high-yield, bunkering won't work and you should opt for a pressure build, and not FE, because you will be behind. Fast reapers or fast banshee work very well here, since it will be hard for him to defend both bases from these units.
Not a hard build to counter if you spot it and react appropriately.
How to spot it
no FE, and a roach warren before expasion, almost always means roaches or roach/ling.
How to react
3 rax marauder should do the trick. Bunker up at your choke/ramp, and then salvage it when you're ready to move out. If you see zerglings, add some marines. Keep your army balled up to make zergling surround less effective
1 base tech builds are designed to tech up to hydra or muta and catch you off guard, giving the zerg an advantage or winning the game right there.
How to spot it
If you see no FE, and zerg makes a lair before expanding.
How to react
1 base tech usually attempts to do one of two things:
1. super fast muta
2. hydras together with something else, either speedling/baneling
If zerg tries super fast muta, you should go for a 1 base 3 rax MM attack. Once you see the spire start to go up, switch all your barracks over to making marines for a short while. You will force him to make banelings or roach in order to counter your marines, which he won't have enough gas to do effectively on 1 base
If zerg tries hydra, you should probably go for hellions/marauders. hellions are decent against hydra, and marauders are even with hydra. Also, hellion/marauder can deal with roach/ling/bane if zerg decides to add that to this hydras.
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I want you to know that I've just added this thread to my favorites list on my browser so that I can use it as a reference for build orders and strategy. I think that this is a wonderul contribution!
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nice job. Add to liquipedia II
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This is awesome, read through most of it. Good job.
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Quite comprehensive. Useful for both a Zerg and a Terran player =)
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Gonna link this to the complete terran guide thread in the TvZ breakdown section (you should just have submitted it there yerself 
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This is a very good guide. I am currently a top 10 plat player, and I have switched to playing Protoss instead of Zerg because I hated playing z v t (and z v z, but that is another matter). Terran, IMO, have a huge strength in this MU because they can wall-in very early and have a wide variety of very effective openings to use. For example, as zerg I would have to worry about early reapers, hellions, or banshees; and slightly later tank drops, thor drops, standard MMM play, tank pushes, MMM drops, and nukes. My point is, use this to your advantage and try to prevent scouting as much as possible. This will make the Zerg player's game much more difficult.
I would also like to add my 2 cents to the 6 rax reaper rush. I have found that going proxy 6 rax, then immediately sending the scv into the zerg base allows for a very effective bunker (which doesn't slow anything down because you should have the mins for it). It is best to start the bunker right as the first reaper is entering the base. Build the bunker (ideally) so that it is in range of the spawning pool, but on the opposite side of the base that the reaper will start harassing. In all of the commotion caused by the reaper entering, the zerg player will often not notice the bunker, focus all of his attention on the reaper anyways, or at the very least be forced to have even more to worry about. Try to micro the reaper around, don't forget to build another, and eventually start putting reapers in the bunker and exit to kill drones as necessary. If you manage to kill the spawning pool it is pretty much GG at that point. This build has worked for me in plat against multiple opponents.
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THANK YOU!
I'm a noob terran player having huge problems with TvZ. This is so awesome!
Now, someone needs to make a similar guide for TvP... =)
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Great article I wish someone would write a ZvT one though.
I have a much easier time as T against Z than I do the other way around.
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Just so you know, I just got done trying out the Fast Reaper build against a Platinum Zerg as a practice partner, and the fastest that I could get a reaper out (in the 6/6/8 and 6/6/11 forms at least) was 3 minutes, but by the time I made it to their base they already had 4 zerglings ready to intercept on the creep.
I'm not saying that the strategy won't work against Zerg, but I don't think that allocating the resources for it against a Zerg player is worth it.
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Great guide i will use it in my games definitely.
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Wow! Exactly what I need.
Can't wait till you add the replays. Good stuff.
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A good overview for sure. I'd like to add a couple things to your overview of the 3 rax MM build, however, as it is by far my favorite build in tvz-I've yet to lose to zerg at platinum using this build every time.
I do the exact same thing up to 15, unsurprisingly, but from there this is what i do differently-
16 bay+reactor on rax
18 rax (tech lab asap)
20/21 rax
Add a reactor to the 2nd rax once you've started research on both +1 weapons AND combat shields. Marauders can start immediately off the 18 rax. From there, build until +1 and shields are done and push out (this roughly occurs at lots of marines/3-4 marauders).
So what are the major benefits to this instead of the reactor/lab/lab build you described? Mainly, this build is ready to hit at the same time as the build you outlined, but with significantly more damage output due to +1 and a significantly larger rine count. With +1 and combat shields 2 marines are a good deal better than 1 marauder-they simply tear through lings and drone pulls, which is a legitimate concern going reactor/lab/lab. The last thing I like about the build is that the marauders are really only there as a meatshield as opposed to damage output, meaning it ought to be resilient to possible marauder nerfs.
The major con to this build is vs a heavy roach build-but with +1 and combat shields, marines still do admirably. Additionally, proper scouting can spot a roach build before the 2nd reactor and switch accordingly (research stims instead of combat shields in this situation, as a heavy marauder force doesn't particularly benefit from shields). Finally, if the zerg player has not properly scouted they will often try to roach rush into this build and be wiped at your base easily (at which point your counter-push after upgrades will handily defeat them).
Vs builds in general-
+ Show Spoiler +
Any FE build
As you already mentioned, this build is tailor made for punishing fe. It's highly unlikely they'll have the numbers to stop your push, and you will simply walk through to their base.
Baneling Bust
This is, unsurprisingly, a concern for most terran builds. Using this build makes a strong wall-in more complicated (as all your rax need addons), but still entirely doable. One option is to use your ebay as a part of the wall if you think a bust is coming-this will show your hand earlier than you'd like, so only do this if you're positive they're going for an early bust. I generally have ebay-rax-depot backed up by addon/depot for my wall if i think a bust is coming. Additionally, simply placing a marauder in front of your depot will help to soak the baneling damage and maintain your wall (smart zerg will scout this beforehand and send lings in first, so proper scouting on your part to get the marauder to safety is paramount). Assuming you beat the first rush, repair your wall and continue building into your push as normal. The second key stage comes when you actually get to their base-they will likely have additional banelings after seeing your build. The easiest way to deal with this is to simply sit your marauders and pull your marines as soon as the he makes a move with his banelings. Your marauders are probably boned, but the marines are the linchpin of the damage anyway, as they will easily clean up any speedlings coming in after the banelings.
Roach builds
I already went over this previously, but the main things to note are, once again, proper scouting and switching to lab/lab/reactor-though even reactor/lab/reactor will often beat roaches.
Muta rush
This is a fairly common build i see stemming from fe builds, so it's worth mentioning. Essentially, they'll hit your min line with mutas right around the time your ball hits their expo. Fortunately, you already have an ebay and will have the excess minerals for a couple turrets before you're ready to push anyway. Furthermore, your ball will clear their base MUCH faster than their mutas will clear yours, so simply pull your scvs to your production and let the building marines fend off their mutas until their base is dead.
A couple replays for reference-
+ Show Spoiler +
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Thanks for this, good read.
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the fastest that I could get a reaper out (in the 6/6/8 and 6/6/11 forms at least) was 3 minutes, but by the time I made it to their base they already had 4 zerglings ready to intercept on the creep.
Your friend must have gone 10 pool then, because the fastest that you can get lings out with a 13/14 pool is about 3:35ish. 10 pool is not the most common zerg build these days from what I have seen. 6 Rax reaper pretty much auto loses to a 10 pool, but is strong against 13/14, good against 15 pool, and dominant against a hatch before pool.
Here is a replay of me beating a platinum player who 14 pooled. His lings pop at 3:38 and he builds spine crawlers.
http://www.mediafire.com/?f2nnz3wtmrm
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Fantastic Post, thanks alot!
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I think your list is very good but not yet complete. I do not believe mass mutalisks can overwhelm marines in bio unless the MM army was already leaning very heavily on marauder. Marines are simply so insanely cost effective against mutalisk that it is only when marines are overwhelmed by additional ground units or- most likely banelings- that mutalisk actually threaten M3. Thor on the other hand can fall to mass mutalisk given that the mutalisk are not stacked. DPS output versus cost, the Thor is actually very far behind, and the usefulness of the Thor really relies on the range and AoE punishment of inattentive mutalisk use. On siege tank support for M3, Thor do not accomplish the same effect against Hydra and Baneling as siege tanks do, not even close. The attack cooldown for the Thor is much too long to be as effective in either of the situations.
Also, the mech section is incomplete, along with the more detailed openings into mech. I find this to be a very, very powerful tool for fighting Zerg and I would consider my play to be significantly lacking if I were to exclude them.
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There are openings I use which are extremely strong that aren't listed, but overall it's a good overview of the matchup. I think you also left out a lot about lategame strategy, unit compositions in lategame, dealing with infestors as bio, and a slew of other things. Keep updating this. If you're going to make a guide make sure to continue with upkeep if it stays applicable.
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On May 01 2010 07:50 Floophead_III wrote:
There are openings I use which are extremely strong that aren't listed, but overall it's a good overview of the matchup. I think you also left out a lot about lategame strategy, unit compositions in lategame, dealing with infestors as bio, and a slew of other things. Keep updating this. If you're going to make a guide make sure to continue with upkeep if it stays applicable.
-_- share the wealth.
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On May 01 2010 07:50 Floophead_III wrote:
There are openings I use which are extremely strong that aren't listed, but overall it's a good overview of the matchup. I think you also left out a lot about lategame strategy, unit compositions in lategame, dealing with infestors as bio, and a slew of other things. Keep updating this. If you're going to make a guide make sure to continue with upkeep if it stays applicable.
This post is incredibly vague, with no details.
What openings do you use? List them yourself, provide at least 3 platinum level replays or some replays of top players using them. I'll definitely add them if they work, I'm not really aiming for tournament-level strategy, it's simply a platinum-level guide.
What about lategame strategy? If you have something specific, explain it.
The unit composition section says mid-game, but it's really mid-game & late-game. I'll change the title to make it less confusing. If you have something specific to discuss about lategame strategy, explain it.
As for dealing with infestors as bio, please see the MMM variations in the guide.
As for "slew of other things", again, if you have something specific, explain yourself, simply saying 'well you need to add a lot' doesn't help much.
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thanks, really nicely writen guide
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Extremely nice guide. Thanks for posting this.
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u forgot thor drop opening
as a zerg, even when u know it is coming - it is very annoying and difficult to deal with after you FE'd
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Very nice, really needed this. I haven't won against a z yet -_-
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Wow. This is exactly I've been looking for this entire time. TvZ is my worst match up by far, since I'm really bad at 1 base play. Hopefully I can get to gold by tomorrow with this!
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Wow this is the best thing I ever read on SC2 Strategy forum. When does the TvP version come out?
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Great. Sorry forthe one liner but it's to add into my posts menu for quick access
thanks for putting the time into writing this, nice to see what's in our heads on paper for criticism!!
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Blasius, this was an amazingly well written guide. Thank you for taking the time to do this!
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This is exactly the kind of guide I was looking for. Excellent work, BlasiuS. I'd love to see similar guides written for TvP and TvT, your explanations are very clear and thorough.
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damn, I was searching for something like this , thank you so much.
Still searching for a safe fast expand
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you forgot a bunch of things with thors.. for example 2 thor 2 dropship harass .. you can put them on cliffs, 2 shot queens with them.. etc., but overall nice guide
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good long read
well done mate
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I lost 6 straight games to my Z practice partner yesterday afternoon. It was driving me nuts so I started looking for some info on the MU then stumbled across your lil guide here and started testing some things out. We played a Bo3 before he went to work this morning and I swept him using the 3 rax timing push (once with the rine heavy variation someone else posted).
Although the build orders listed are extremely helpful I think it was your breakdown of the MU itself that really helped me out. I was letting him get away with his early expo far too easy and not forcing him to do anything other than macro up at his leisure. From now on zerg FE's are getting punished.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to write this!
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Thanks for the feedback.
On May 01 2010 07:34 cmpcmp wrote:Show nested quote +the fastest that I could get a reaper out (in the 6/6/8 and 6/6/11 forms at least) was 3 minutes, but by the time I made it to their base they already had 4 zerglings ready to intercept on the creep. Your friend must have gone 10 pool then, because the fastest that you can get lings out with a 13/14 pool is about 3:35ish. 10 pool is not the most common zerg build these days from what I have seen. 6 Rax reaper pretty much auto loses to a 10 pool, but is strong against 13/14, good against 15 pool, and dominant against a hatch before pool. Here is a replay of me beating a platinum player who 14 pooled. His lings pop at 3:38 and he builds spine crawlers. http://www.mediafire.com/?f2nnz3wtmrm
Can you please upload that replay to another site? I hate mediafire. I just sat there for 5 minutes with the "Download starting..." sign showing, at which point it just auto-refreshed and gave me 3 extra pop-ups (like I didn't need more ads as it already was with 3 versions of the same fucking ad taking up over 50% of the screen).
Might I recommend sc2rc.com ? I'm liking that site.
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Thanks for this, I play zerg and this helps to understand what Terran is doing
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very quality post, i knew most of this already, but its always nice to see something more defined and well organized ^^
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Thanks for the effort, helped a lot!
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A fairly strong Z build you are missing is FE few lings as scouts/spotters then the ZZZ 5-6 Spine crawlers at natural Then transition to semi fast mutas.
The obvious counter to this is a thor based build but still annoying if you try some 3 rax early hit build and then get to their base and there is a wall of spine crawlers and then the next thing you know you have 4-5 mutas wailing on yo SCV's >_<
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Awesome guide, great explanations behind why each build works, and even more importantly where it struggles and how to spot it.
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ahh nice guide, should help my zvt a lot lol. and as a new player this makes tvz seem ridic unfair.. terran have so many good unit combinations to counter zerg users.. sc2 makes no sense to me -_-
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thank you so much for the guide
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On May 02 2010 04:27 Mobius wrote:
ahh nice guide, should help my zvt a lot lol. and as a new player this makes tvz seem ridic unfair.. terran have so many good unit combinations to counter zerg users.. sc2 makes no sense to me -_-
Haha, same But remember that it is a terran pov guide.. a zerg pov guide would make you more positive to the idea of beating any terran build
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The 3 rax build doesnt seem to work at all for me, is it still valid?
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Thankyou for a little bit more insight, i hate TvZ T_T
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...and I hate ZvT T^T. I always feel like whatever I'm doing is transparent to the T player whereas I'm fighting blind because of their wall-in.
Edit: I forgot to add that this is a really useful guide and I hope someone does this for all MUs.
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Useful for zerg players also? 
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Awesome post, definitely helped with my TvZ.
Thanks, BlasiuS :>
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Nice post man, thanks for this. I plan on getting more Terran play in before beta ends and this will be helpful after getting used to Zerg for sure.
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Nice thread. Quick addition to the Terran Openings section:
Fast / Mass Ravens - similar build order as fast banshees, except that you make a 2nd rax in lieu of a starport (Each base can constantly produce ravens from one starport with some gas left over for upgrades).
Objective is to constantly harass with auto-turrets, upgrading their armor and range at the eBay, while securing an island expansion or PF + bunkered natural and continuing to mass ravens + marines. Auto-turrets are surprisingly durable vs Zerg, and can be used to block off wide stretches of space.
If the Zerg starts making roaches, it's simple to mix in banshees and RBGs from already existing production facilities.
The perfect map for this opening is Desert Oasis, however it may also work on Incineration Zone and Scrap Station.
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As a Zerg, I love threads like these. It helps me know how my opponents are going to attempt to counter to me when I know they've scouted me and I can react accordingly. So it's a win/win for all!
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Good tips.
Thank you good sir.
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About the hellion build, alot of zerg players will try to baneling bust it. What I often do when i do this build is to add 2 marauders into my army while my factory is being built. I then lift the factory into the barrack's techlab and research ignite asap while pumping hellions. I place those 2 marauder right in front of my wallin, at the top of the ramp in hold position. This force the bust to be soaked on the marauders, while the marines are trigger happy safely behind the wallin.
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What do you guys recommend against Sunken Colonies? For example, whether the Z decides to FE or 1 base, they may make 3 Sunken Colonies and won't push you until you engage the sunken colonies?
I find myself in a situation where I have to fight sunken colonies and many zerglings, they get the surround or i lose units a lot faster when I have to deal with them. A semi solution I found was simply, expand and try to contain them while teching up. Any thoughts welcomed!
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It is a very interesting topic, but none of the strategies include bunkers. I'm not talking bunker rush, but just simple bunkers. Almost any cheese ling/s-ling/b-ling die to bunkers and they are cheap and have 3x more health than depos. You can choose to FE against almost any zerg if you add 2-3 bunkers and have sub-par micro.
My favorite build is not mentioned. I play ghosts/hellions and I win ALL of my TvZ games because ghosts are a bit OP to zerg. I think i've seen a few threats about this opening.
Tkx,
-tw
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On May 04 2010 08:59 Kutsuki wrote:
What do you guys recommend against Sunken Colonies? For example, whether the Z decides to FE or 1 base, they may make 3 Sunken Colonies and won't push you until you engage the sunken colonies?
I find myself in a situation where I have to fight sunken colonies and many zerglings, they get the surround or i lose units a lot faster when I have to deal with them. A semi solution I found was simply, expand and try to contain them while teching up. Any thoughts welcomed!
RBGs take out buildings very quickly, especially with Hellion support.
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Hey OP, I got a question for you. This is from a Z player, so this is not only for me to know what to expect when I get to higher level of play but for others to know how to counter this if the time comes. Basically, I've been dabbling around with a mid-game strategy where I just throw down a Nydus Worm and put like, 20 lings in there, and unload in their main destroying their workers and their production buildings. If they retreat their army to defend, I'll push with my main army (be it Roach, or Roach/Hydra, or Muta, or what have you) and bust their front door into their natural and essentially win the game. It's worked a great deal of the time, and the only effective way I've seen people counter this is to keep a few marines spread in their base and if they see it starting to build, they stim up and kill the Nydus fast. But even then, most people unless you're ultra good can't always be lookign for that little dot of color; and also since basically nobody uses a Nydus Worm as far as i've seen so it's not like the average player is going to be paranoid and keep 8-10 marines spread out in their base -just in case-
Help your fellow T's out against this strat i've been wrecking them with. Oh, and if they keep their main army in the main, I'll just reverse it. Attack their front, and when they move to defend, I open up my Nydus Worm and ravage their base while they are distracted with the main battle.
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i mean, nydus worm takes awhile to build. it's easy to build depots all around your base and when you see it, just kill it.
it just takes watching the minimap, which, since i'm assuming you're playing noobs in silver or gold, doesn't happen very often. Nydus worm is a pretty jacked strat, but it isn't hard to stop if you plan ahead and anticipate.
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Yeah, I'm in Silver at the moment. 10th in my league right now. I've just been wrecking with this strat, along with getting tunnel claws for my Roaches and using a few to destroy a segment of his wall and then moving all of my army past it and into his main, and GG. Which of course is solved with missile turrets, but not many T's get that unless they see me go Spire. Back to the Nydus Worm though, even if they saw it coming in their base, they'd still be jacked up unless they got some sick static defense or some tanks at the front. Because if they got their army at their Nat or somewhere outside their base, by the time they get back to kill the worm (even if it doens't finish) I can just bust down their door and get into their base; and if I don't release the Lings I can just make another worm somewhere else. This is also very useful psycologically, because if I do this and it doesn't win the game, they will turtle up hardcore afraid of the harassment I could potentially do if they kept expanding. Which I would do, obviously.
I know it's pretty easy to beat, if you scout a Nydus Canal just put some marines with Stim in your main and use Supply Depots for spotting, but it's mainly a distraction not a game winner in of itself.
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Thanks for the replies everyone!
On May 01 2010 07:21 Smodi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +A good overview for sure. I'd like to add a couple things to your overview of the 3 rax MM build, however, as it is by far my favorite build in tvz-I've yet to lose to zerg at platinum using this build every time. I do the exact same thing up to 15, unsurprisingly, but from there this is what i do differently- 16 bay+reactor on rax 18 rax (tech lab asap) 20/21 rax Add a reactor to the 2nd rax once you've started research on both +1 weapons AND combat shields. Marauders can start immediately off the 18 rax. From there, build until +1 and shields are done and push out (this roughly occurs at lots of marines/3-4 marauders). So what are the major benefits to this instead of the reactor/lab/lab build you described? Mainly, this build is ready to hit at the same time as the build you outlined, but with significantly more damage output due to +1 and a significantly larger rine count. With +1 and combat shields 2 marines are a good deal better than 1 marauder-they simply tear through lings and drone pulls, which is a legitimate concern going reactor/lab/lab. The last thing I like about the build is that the marauders are really only there as a meatshield as opposed to damage output, meaning it ought to be resilient to possible marauder nerfs. The major con to this build is vs a heavy roach build-but with +1 and combat shields, marines still do admirably. Additionally, proper scouting can spot a roach build before the 2nd reactor and switch accordingly (research stims instead of combat shields in this situation, as a heavy marauder force doesn't particularly benefit from shields). Finally, if the zerg player has not properly scouted they will often try to roach rush into this build and be wiped at your base easily (at which point your counter-push after upgrades will handily defeat them).
Vs builds in general-+ Show Spoiler +
Any FE build
As you already mentioned, this build is tailor made for punishing fe. It's highly unlikely they'll have the numbers to stop your push, and you will simply walk through to their base.
Baneling Bust
This is, unsurprisingly, a concern for most terran builds. Using this build makes a strong wall-in more complicated (as all your rax need addons), but still entirely doable. One option is to use your ebay as a part of the wall if you think a bust is coming-this will show your hand earlier than you'd like, so only do this if you're positive they're going for an early bust. I generally have ebay-rax-depot backed up by addon/depot for my wall if i think a bust is coming. Additionally, simply placing a marauder in front of your depot will help to soak the baneling damage and maintain your wall (smart zerg will scout this beforehand and send lings in first, so proper scouting on your part to get the marauder to safety is paramount). Assuming you beat the first rush, repair your wall and continue building into your push as normal. The second key stage comes when you actually get to their base-they will likely have additional banelings after seeing your build. The easiest way to deal with this is to simply sit your marauders and pull your marines as soon as the he makes a move with his banelings. Your marauders are probably boned, but the marines are the linchpin of the damage anyway, as they will easily clean up any speedlings coming in after the banelings.
Roach builds
I already went over this previously, but the main things to note are, once again, proper scouting and switching to lab/lab/reactor-though even reactor/lab/reactor will often beat roaches.
Muta rush
This is a fairly common build i see stemming from fe builds, so it's worth mentioning. Essentially, they'll hit your min line with mutas right around the time your ball hits their expo. Fortunately, you already have an ebay and will have the excess minerals for a couple turrets before you're ready to push anyway. Furthermore, your ball will clear their base MUCH faster than their mutas will clear yours, so simply pull your scvs to your production and let the building marines fend off their mutas until their base is dead.
A couple replays for reference-+ Show Spoiler +
This is a cool variation, but it's still more or less the same concept: timing attack using 3 barracks off of one base. I like the fast +1 attack & fast shields though, it's worth mentioning.
On May 01 2010 09:50 CharlieMurphy wrote:
u forgot thor drop opening
as a zerg, even when u know it is coming - it is very annoying and difficult to deal with after you FE'd
Yeah, I know that's a great opening build, I can add that, but it's not a build I normally use, so I don't know it. Do you know where I can get a good replay of it?
On May 02 2010 02:35 Izslove wrote:
A fairly strong Z build you are missing is FE few lings as scouts/spotters then the ZZZ 5-6 Spine crawlers at natural Then transition to semi fast mutas.
The obvious counter to this is a thor based build but still annoying if you try some 3 rax early hit build and then get to their base and there is a wall of spine crawlers and then the next thing you know you have 4-5 mutas wailing on yo SCV's >_<
I may add that in, but that really falls under zerg FE. It should go without saying that if you spot crawlers going up, you should attack before he is able to get 5-6, or you can expand at that point. I could possibly add a section on dealing with certain zerg mid-game & end-game armies.
On May 04 2010 01:52 Shaithis wrote:
Nice thread. Quick addition to the Terran Openings section:
Fast / Mass Ravens - similar build order as fast banshees, except that you make a 2nd rax in lieu of a starport (Each base can constantly produce ravens from one starport with some gas left over for upgrades).
Objective is to constantly harass with auto-turrets, upgrading their armor and range at the eBay, while securing an island expansion or PF + bunkered natural and continuing to mass ravens + marines. Auto-turrets are surprisingly durable vs Zerg, and can be used to block off wide stretches of space.
If the Zerg starts making roaches, it's simple to mix in banshees and RBGs from already existing production facilities.
The perfect map for this opening is Desert Oasis, however it may also work on Incineration Zone and Scrap Station.
need replays, at least 3 @ platinum level showing this build succeeding, or if you can point me to a top player using it that's fine.
On May 04 2010 09:25 t3hw0lf wrote:
It is a very interesting topic, but none of the strategies include bunkers. I'm not talking bunker rush, but just simple bunkers. Almost any cheese ling/s-ling/b-ling die to bunkers and they are cheap and have 3x more health than depos. You can choose to FE against almost any zerg if you add 2-3 bunkers and have sub-par micro.
My favorite build is not mentioned. I play ghosts/hellions and I win ALL of my TvZ games because ghosts are a bit OP to zerg. I think i've seen a few threats about this opening.
Tkx,
-tw
Yes I can add a section on bunkers, they should always be used against 1 base zerg.
As for the ghost/hellion build, I'm skeptical, but it could work, if you are willing to provide at least 3 plat level replays showing this build winning, I will gladly add it.
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Great guide!
I'm having fun using a very mixed harass versus FE zerg, currently 8th plat, but I'm in a terrible league so that doesn't mean much =)
I go 10 rax reaper rush, into fast fact/starport then continuously pump marauders/helions and banshees from the 3 production buildings attacking everytime i have 3-4 units ready (I add a second rax for marines when i have the cash).
The trick is to focus the right units, so for example focus fire the hydras down, then even once they finish off your ground units, you have an unchallenged banshee to cause damage until the next waves spawn.
It's very, very messy but is a lot of fun because your constantly micro-ing small fights. Muta's would be a hard counter to this but most zerg seem to go hydras as a counter when the first banshee shows up for some reason?
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could someone PLEASE make a zerg version of this thread? ZvT at a plat level?
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I am having an absolute ton of trouble with zergs who make a very fast 6-8 mutas or so, use those to harass while cranking a ton of drones, and then switching to a total ground based army, which is often roach heavy. I find it very difficult to get any offense going - if I try to leave without leaving enough marines/turrets at home, his muta attack my scvs as soon as I leave. By the time I have my base defended against the mutas, he will have enough ground forces and spine crawlers by the time I can walk across the map to attack, but he will have made a ton of drones before that. The fast mutas come out so quick that they tend to shut down most harassments that I've tried, like hellions, hellion drops, and banshees or vikings. I can't find a way to get to the midgame without being really far behind economically.
I can defend it well enough, it's just finding some opportunity to actually be offensive and slow down his drone production somehow that I am struggling with.
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great post! appreciated very much! thankyou =]
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On May 05 2010 09:47 BigOleDonkey wrote:
I am having an absolute ton of trouble with zergs who make a very fast 6-8 mutas or so, use those to harass while cranking a ton of drones, and then switching to a total ground based army, which is often roach heavy. I find it very difficult to get any offense going - if I try to leave without leaving enough marines/turrets at home, his muta attack my scvs as soon as I leave. By the time I have my base defended against the mutas, he will have enough ground forces and spine crawlers by the time I can walk across the map to attack, but he will have made a ton of drones before that. The fast mutas come out so quick that they tend to shut down most harassments that I've tried, like hellions, hellion drops, and banshees or vikings. I can't find a way to get to the midgame without being really far behind economically.
I can defend it well enough, it's just finding some opportunity to actually be offensive and slow down his drone production somehow that I am struggling with.
2-4 Turrets in your base and a single Thor completely negates Muta. Thors are also incredibly strong vs Hydra, transitioning into something like Thor/Marauder then adding on Hellions just before you push out or Thor/Tank/Marines can counter a large number of their builds. If you want to try to keep his drone count down you can get a few Hellions earlier to keep the harass up till you are ready to push.
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Just wanted to say fantastic post BlasiuS, this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I've been looking for.
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No fast tech thor drops ? gosh !
But ya anyone got any favs for dealing with FE zerg i just can't deal with them. i open hellion hars get a few kills somtimes pull back. Try to get a Marauder hellion push in and break them most times they have like 8 spinecrawlers up and it just doesn't/won't work so i pull back.
Or after the hellion push i go into thors cause they are fast teching mutas so try and get thors to deal with them but they just dance around my 1 thor and rape the sides and don't let me expand till i get like 3 thors or 2 thors and a few missle turrents. By that time they ethier have a huge ground army and can't push out or they have expanded for the 3 rd time or have a huge muta ball and pick off / roll over the thors cause they are spread out trying to deal with the harsment.
Just can't seem to break them early or do the dmg needed to slow them down even if i get the like 6 - 8 drones they just seem to keep on ticking then the spinecrawler walls are so gay can't get by them. If i try and tech to air to do some drops the mutas are out in time and just rape me : /
If they go into hydras roach or banling bust im fine of FE just can't deal with the fast mutas/ spinecrawler wall of death anyone?
Ps i see this build alot on the asian server replays just wall with spinecrawlers and fast tech to mutas maybe why they zerg owns the asian servers /shrug
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BlasiuS: What do you suggest against Sunken Colonies, so far I have no luck against 3 sunken colonies + his army. If I see it, I feel the only effective move is to immediately expand. I've tried rushing to tanks and adding reapers to my build without any success. Bunkering doesn't work as well because the sunken colonies can out range your bunkers. Any suggestions or comments? Have you successfully pushed a Zerg player with 3 sunken and his army?
What I commonly come across are like Zerg FE with 3 sunken and they zergling to hydra or zergling to banelings.
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On May 05 2010 12:43 Kutsuki wrote:
BlasiuS: What do you suggest against Sunken Colonies, so far I have no luck against 3 sunken colonies + his army. If I see it, I feel the only effective move is to immediately expand. I've tried rushing to tanks and adding reapers to my build without any success. Bunkering doesn't work as well because the sunken colonies can out range your bunkers. Any suggestions or comments? Have you successfully pushed a Zerg player with 3 sunken and his army?
What I commonly come across are like Zerg FE with 3 sunken and they zergling to hydra or zergling to banelings.
I assume you mean zerg that FE -> add immediate sunken. Well there's a few things you can do, but your response depends on what you opened with.
If you opened with FE, you are way ahead because while you are macroing up your 2 bases, he is wasting resources on static d. You should concentrate on scouting out what his lair tech is, either muta or hydra, and countering it.
If you opened with 1 base tech of some kind, it depends on what you did. hellions are rendered useless by 3+ spine crawlers. However banshees are of course unaffected, and if he delays his lair in order to put down spine crawlers, your banshee harass will be more effective.
If you opened with 1 base 3 rax MM, you need to be actively scouting and respond immediately. You should either scout more & attack before the crawlers are up, or expand immediately once you see them go down.
Also you should note that this is really only effective on maps that don't have a backdoor entrance, which are metalopolis, LT, and steppes. On incineration zone, desert oasis, blistering sands, kulas ravine, and scrap station, you always have the option of busting down the rocks and forcing him to split up his crawlers.
I will add a section about responding to multiple crawlers, as soon as I find some suitable replays of how to deal with it.
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I just want to thank you for this thread, it really helped me for TvZ.
I'm 30ish platinum, and I must say MM timing push is really good against most of zergs atm, as marauders can kill spine crawlers, and marines handle quite well lings.
As you say in your previous post, a good timing is fundamental as you can attack his expand when spine crawlers are building. Handling one or even two is not a big deal.
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Skipping stim for a 3 rax timing push is fine? I've been feeling that without stim my guys just don't do enough damage and would prefer it over combat shields but it's more likely my timing is wrong.
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MAKE A TVT AND TVP GUIDE!!!
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AH! i cant find it anywhere but a perfect example of hellion ghosts is
Orcmaniac(T)_vs_eNtitY(P)_Lost_Temple_from_sc2rc.com_85f2d971dce65f0c084ecb2caf778e9a.SC2Replay
im pretty sure that is it but i cant find it on sc2win anymore
he snipes a roach army to death, hellions blings and snipes mutas/blings like crazy, he also decides to nuke instead of tank the spine c's good use of medvac as well, ive tried it but even tho im #1 plat right now i have no where near the apm to use the build.
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I dont really agree that a majority of the maps have a backdoor
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Uh...Scrap Station rocks aren't a "backdoor"...they're just a shortcut to the front door.
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On May 10 2010 15:56 PeterDoe wrote:I think there are 3 TvZ guide threads could be added as tools to deal with Zerg expo. Fast RavenFast ThorFast Ghost
All of those are pre-patch 11.
Mass ravens aren't viable anymore I think, due to NP affecting air units now.
1 thor push may work, but due to thor changes, I won't be convinced until I see some patch 11 replays showing it working (at least 3 at plat level)
nuke rush could also still be viable, I may add that to the mid-game/late-game section, it's not really an opening (after reading the post, I see that the build opens with fast hellions).
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if zerg FE and going for hydras you can roll him with a sexy 2fact push with 3 tanks 4hellions and marines from rax with reactor
even if he goes mutas you'll be able to take his nat with this push and build thors/turrets at ur base
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latest update: added 1 base reapers to the openings section
On May 11 2010 01:42 GoodCat1 wrote:
if zerg FE and going for hydras you can roll him with a sexy 2fact push with 3 tanks 4hellions and marines from rax with reactor
even if he goes mutas you'll be able to take his nat with this push and build thors/turrets at ur base
I'll need more than 2 sentences.
At the very least provide the BO and 3 or more platinum level replays showing this build working.
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What are other terrans experience in TvZ in games that go on into macro games? I have lost a stunning 100% of my TvZ games that has gone beyond 15 minutes. Literally, if I don't kill the first expansion of the zerg with a timing push at 10 minutes then I loose, no matter what I do. My macro mechanics are just fine as I win all other matchups in long macro games but against zerg I just get mauled. Its not even close.
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On May 12 2010 05:50 ymirheim wrote:
What are other terrans experience in TvZ in games that go on into macro games? I have lost a stunning 100% of my TvZ games that has gone beyond 15 minutes. Literally, if I don't kill the first expansion of the zerg with a timing push at 10 minutes then I loose, no matter what I do. My macro mechanics are just fine as I win all other matchups in long macro games but against zerg I just get mauled. Its not even close.
1: Are you expanding fast [like after 2 hellions] or else doing significant damage to justify delaying your expansion?
2: Are you keeping up close enough in the worker count throughout the game?
3: Are you taking a fast third base if you think he can't attack you but you don't want to commit to a push?
4: What unit composition are you having trouble with? Consider using more tanks and more marines in your mix.
5: Are you using medivacs during your push vs a mass expo zerg?
TvZ right now I find VERY fair, even the so called imba broodlords I think are easily stopped with ghost//viking. [Snipe!] Right now I'm going for marauder/tank/marine/medivac against a baneling or hydra heavy combo, adding thors and a second fact and go marauder/thor/marine/tank against muta/ling/baneling. Ravens I get when I went banshees early they're awesome. Ghosts i get vs infestors or broodlords. I tend to expand quite a lot, as 2 base aggression is a bit SC:BW =p
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Mass ravens aren't viable anymore I think, due to NP affecting air units now.
I don' t think this is true. Raven's have 3 range on their PDD and the PDD has a range of 8. That would mean a raven can be up to 11 units away from the enemy and drop the PDD in battle and have it still affect the enemy. Infestor's 9 range on NP shouldn't be enough to hit the raven. You just have to be more protective of the raven now. As for harassing, the early ravens come out faster than infestors with NP since NP is researched. The infestors also need the 100 energy compared to 50 before meaning they will have to have been out for a while as well.
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On May 12 2010 06:05 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +Mass ravens aren't viable anymore I think, due to NP affecting air units now. I don' t think this is true. Raven's have 3 range on their PDD and the PDD has a range of 8. That would mean a raven can be up to 11 units away from the enemy and drop the PDD in battle and have it still affect the enemy. Infestor's 9 range on NP shouldn't be enough to hit the raven. You just have to be more protective of the raven now. As for harassing, the early ravens come out faster than infestors with NP since NP is researched. The infestors also need the 100 energy compared to 50 before meaning they will have to have been out for a while as well.
As far as I'm aware, massing ravens just for PDD isn't a very viable strategy. But if you can provide a solid BO and at least 3 plat level replays (or some replays of top players using it) I'll add it to the guide.
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On May 12 2010 06:12 BlasiuS wrote:
As far as I'm aware, massing ravens just for PDD isn't a very viable strategy. But if you can provide a solid BO and at least 3 plat level replays (or some replays of top players using it) I'll add it to the guide.
I didn't mean to imply that, I was just saying that if the raven rushing WAS viable then I don't see how the changes would affect it's viability. Ravens can be NPed now, but it's harder to get NP out and the range of ravens makes them still usable in battle even if the enemy has NP. I'd still want patch 11 replays before considering it as a solid strat, it's just I don't think it's really been affected.
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I'd like to note that the changes to the Thor in patch 11, like some just assume, aren't strictly a nerf. In fact in some ways they got better so thor pushing is still very viable.
Their DPS is the same but they shoot 3 times in the same time as 2 shots before. Against hydra's they gotten quite worse as they used to 1 shot them but 2 shot them now, with upgrades they almost 1 shot them though so any splash from a hellion or so will kill em. Against zerglings they are better as they just kill them quicker now for what it matters.
Against roaches they also got better actually, first they 2 shotted them now they 3 shoot them in the same time. With upgrades however they almost 2 shot them so if any splash already hit the roaches which is very common with siege tanks & hellions they will kill them faster as they will overkill much less.
The DPS with upgrades also increased for thors as they went from 45(+3 per upg) to 30(+3 per upg). So all in all the thor is still very good against zerg, it got worse as a dropping tool but does the same if not better in most battle's. The damage against armored air got a bit worse but the broodlord also got weaker so that more then evens out..
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Thanks for the information, I was really boggled what to do TvZ, kind of winging it at my lower level of play
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On May 12 2010 05:54 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 05:50 ymirheim wrote:
What are other terrans experience in TvZ in games that go on into macro games? I have lost a stunning 100% of my TvZ games that has gone beyond 15 minutes. Literally, if I don't kill the first expansion of the zerg with a timing push at 10 minutes then I loose, no matter what I do. My macro mechanics are just fine as I win all other matchups in long macro games but against zerg I just get mauled. Its not even close. 1: Are you expanding fast [like after 2 hellions] or else doing significant damage to justify delaying your expansion? 2: Are you keeping up close enough in the worker count throughout the game? 3: Are you taking a fast third base if you think he can't attack you but you don't want to commit to a push? 4: What unit composition are you having trouble with? Consider using more tanks and more marines in your mix. 5: Are you using medivacs during your push vs a mass expo zerg? TvZ right now I find VERY fair, even the so called imba broodlords I think are easily stopped with ghost//viking. [Snipe!] Right now I'm going for marauder/tank/marine/medivac against a baneling or hydra heavy combo, adding thors and a second fact and go marauder/thor/marine/tank against muta/ling/baneling. Ravens I get when I went banshees early they're awesome. Ghosts i get vs infestors or broodlords. I tend to expand quite a lot, as 2 base aggression is a bit SC:BW =p
Thanks This is precisely what I need, someone to throw questions out there that I might not be considering due to getting too frustrated over my loosing streak. I actually do use tanks and I think they are great in TvZ too although perhaps I need to tweak my ratio, I feel like I am getting the tanks too late and perhaps too few. I open hellion/marauder and then add marines, tanks and medivacs on my first expansion but I keep making hellions from one factory still while making tanks from one. Perhaps I actually need to chill on the hellions after early game unless the zerg is still going with banelings/zerglings. Now that I think of it I usually end up loosing when the zerg composition is mainly pure roach/hydralisk. So if I am facing that kind of composition I should probably swap addons and push tanks from two factories instead of just one.
I'll also consider pushing for a third sooner, I am struggling with convincing my brain to not be too satisfied with two bases.
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I'm bumping this to throw in my experiences in this matchup.
I definitely think this is the hardest matchup to play, as terran. You have to be on your toes about SO MUCH. You must not let them pump drones, you must out-expand them, you must apply pressure. It just requires so much. It's so hard to out-macro them when they take an early third. It's hard to apply pressure against roaches with anything short of stimmed MMM and tanks. Roach/hydra requires such little unit diversity and is so good against so many army compositions.
I haven't won a tvz in days. In fact, since the last reset, I've probably only won about 15% of my games vs zerg (I'm about 1500 plat, right now). I've lost games versus zerg where my initial hellion harass has killed 10+ drones.
I lost one game that I got pressured early by roaches, waited to push out and deal with it till I got my first banshee, and expanded. There was a window in that game of about 30 seconds where I had to attack, but I missed it and let him get away with making 15 drones at once.
Although I read through the OP in this thread twice I'm still having trouble. I've got a lot of holes in my game I'm looking to patch up, but I just want to find a "standard" to perfect. I think the healthiest composition is MMM with tanks and thors depending on if they get mutas. I honestly think the best opening is fast expanding. Like, before your factory, behind your wall. Even then, I lose if I don't do economic damage before they hit lair. After hydras get out it's just so hard to kill drones.
I've also been experimenting with point defense drone, but I don't think it's as clutch as in the other two matchups. I think I might try throwing ghosts in for snipe and nukes.
Anyway, that's it for my rant. I think ultra-expanding is what I'm going to try next, after reading a bit more through this thread.
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Not sure but this is one of my favorite matches. I rarely loose to zerg(or protoss for that matter). I'm around 1400+ plat. I open up with 8 racks, 9 ref. reaper harass, transition into helions and then to m&m, thors and/or siege tanks.
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could you break something like this down for zerg, against terran xD
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I definitely think this is the hardest matchup to play, as terran
I feel the opposite. TvP is way way way way way more difficult. Even TvT I think challenges more for scouting and micro and tech than TvZ.
What are other terrans experience in TvZ in games that go on into macro games? I have lost a stunning 100% of my TvZ games that has gone beyond 15 minutes. Literally, if I don't kill the first expansion of the zerg with a timing push at 10 minutes then I loose, no matter what I do. My macro mechanics are just fine as I win all other matchups in long macro games but against zerg I just get mauled. Its not even close.
Not using any mech play? It can take zerg in like a 1:2 resources lost ratio. And mech is one of those unit compositions that scales extremely well as it is a lot of splash and high damage attacks that get big bonuses from +1 upgrades.
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On May 01 2010 07:21 Smodi wrote:A good overview for sure. I'd like to add a couple things to your overview of the 3 rax MM build, however, as it is by far my favorite build in tvz-I've yet to lose to zerg at platinum using this build every time. I do the exact same thing up to 15, unsurprisingly, but from there this is what i do differently- 16 bay+reactor on rax 18 rax (tech lab asap) 20/21 rax Add a reactor to the 2nd rax once you've started research on both +1 weapons AND combat shields. Marauders can start immediately off the 18 rax. From there, build until +1 and shields are done and push out (this roughly occurs at lots of marines/3-4 marauders). So what are the major benefits to this instead of the reactor/lab/lab build you described? Mainly, this build is ready to hit at the same time as the build you outlined, but with significantly more damage output due to +1 and a significantly larger rine count. With +1 and combat shields 2 marines are a good deal better than 1 marauder-they simply tear through lings and drone pulls, which is a legitimate concern going reactor/lab/lab. The last thing I like about the build is that the marauders are really only there as a meatshield as opposed to damage output, meaning it ought to be resilient to possible marauder nerfs. The major con to this build is vs a heavy roach build-but with +1 and combat shields, marines still do admirably. Additionally, proper scouting can spot a roach build before the 2nd reactor and switch accordingly (research stims instead of combat shields in this situation, as a heavy marauder force doesn't particularly benefit from shields). Finally, if the zerg player has not properly scouted they will often try to roach rush into this build and be wiped at your base easily (at which point your counter-push after upgrades will handily defeat them).
Vs builds in general-+ Show Spoiler +
Any FE build
As you already mentioned, this build is tailor made for punishing fe. It's highly unlikely they'll have the numbers to stop your push, and you will simply walk through to their base.
Baneling Bust
This is, unsurprisingly, a concern for most terran builds. Using this build makes a strong wall-in more complicated (as all your rax need addons), but still entirely doable. One option is to use your ebay as a part of the wall if you think a bust is coming-this will show your hand earlier than you'd like, so only do this if you're positive they're going for an early bust. I generally have ebay-rax-depot backed up by addon/depot for my wall if i think a bust is coming. Additionally, simply placing a marauder in front of your depot will help to soak the baneling damage and maintain your wall (smart zerg will scout this beforehand and send lings in first, so proper scouting on your part to get the marauder to safety is paramount). Assuming you beat the first rush, repair your wall and continue building into your push as normal. The second key stage comes when you actually get to their base-they will likely have additional banelings after seeing your build. The easiest way to deal with this is to simply sit your marauders and pull your marines as soon as the he makes a move with his banelings. Your marauders are probably boned, but the marines are the linchpin of the damage anyway, as they will easily clean up any speedlings coming in after the banelings.
Roach builds
I already went over this previously, but the main things to note are, once again, proper scouting and switching to lab/lab/reactor-though even reactor/lab/reactor will often beat roaches.
Muta rush
This is a fairly common build i see stemming from fe builds, so it's worth mentioning. Essentially, they'll hit your min line with mutas right around the time your ball hits their expo. Fortunately, you already have an ebay and will have the excess minerals for a couple turrets before you're ready to push anyway. Furthermore, your ball will clear their base MUCH faster than their mutas will clear yours, so simply pull your scvs to your production and let the building marines fend off their mutas until their base is dead.
A couple replays for reference-+ Show Spoiler +
As a zerg player, it really depends on the map.
If overlord can get sight of your 2 geisers without getting shot down, that is a huge advantage to zerg because we can pretty much extrapolate what build you are going just by seeing when you get your gasses.
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On May 12 2010 10:17 ymirheim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 05:54 Slayer91 wrote:On May 12 2010 05:50 ymirheim wrote:
What are other terrans experience in TvZ in games that go on into macro games? I have lost a stunning 100% of my TvZ games that has gone beyond 15 minutes. Literally, if I don't kill the first expansion of the zerg with a timing push at 10 minutes then I loose, no matter what I do. My macro mechanics are just fine as I win all other matchups in long macro games but against zerg I just get mauled. Its not even close. 1: Are you expanding fast [like after 2 hellions] or else doing significant damage to justify delaying your expansion? 2: Are you keeping up close enough in the worker count throughout the game? 3: Are you taking a fast third base if you think he can't attack you but you don't want to commit to a push? 4: What unit composition are you having trouble with? Consider using more tanks and more marines in your mix. 5: Are you using medivacs during your push vs a mass expo zerg? TvZ right now I find VERY fair, even the so called imba broodlords I think are easily stopped with ghost//viking. [Snipe!] Right now I'm going for marauder/tank/marine/medivac against a baneling or hydra heavy combo, adding thors and a second fact and go marauder/thor/marine/tank against muta/ling/baneling. Ravens I get when I went banshees early they're awesome. Ghosts i get vs infestors or broodlords. I tend to expand quite a lot, as 2 base aggression is a bit SC:BW =p Thanks This is precisely what I need, someone to throw questions out there that I might not be considering due to getting too frustrated over my loosing streak. I actually do use tanks and I think they are great in TvZ too although perhaps I need to tweak my ratio, I feel like I am getting the tanks too late and perhaps too few. I open hellion/marauder and then add marines, tanks and medivacs on my first expansion but I keep making hellions from one factory still while making tanks from one. Perhaps I actually need to chill on the hellions after early game unless the zerg is still going with banelings/zerglings. Now that I think of it I usually end up loosing when the zerg composition is mainly pure roach/hydralisk. So if I am facing that kind of composition I should probably swap addons and push tanks from two factories instead of just one. I'll also consider pushing for a third sooner, I am struggling with convincing my brain to not be too satisfied with two bases.
you need to keep up the pressure to prevent zerg from using all his larvae for drones.
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On May 13 2010 14:27 Meta wrote:
I'm bumping this to throw in my experiences in this matchup.
I definitely think this is the hardest matchup to play, as terran. You have to be on your toes about SO MUCH. You must not let them pump drones, you must out-expand them, you must apply pressure. It just requires so much. It's so hard to out-macro them when they take an early third. It's hard to apply pressure against roaches with anything short of stimmed MMM and tanks. Roach/hydra requires such little unit diversity and is so good against so many army compositions.
I haven't won a tvz in days. In fact, since the last reset, I've probably only won about 15% of my games vs zerg (I'm about 1500 plat, right now). I've lost games versus zerg where my initial hellion harass has killed 10+ drones.
I lost one game that I got pressured early by roaches, waited to push out and deal with it till I got my first banshee, and expanded. There was a window in that game of about 30 seconds where I had to attack, but I missed it and let him get away with making 15 drones at once.
Although I read through the OP in this thread twice I'm still having trouble. I've got a lot of holes in my game I'm looking to patch up, but I just want to find a "standard" to perfect. I think the healthiest composition is MMM with tanks and thors depending on if they get mutas. I honestly think the best opening is fast expanding. Like, before your factory, behind your wall. Even then, I lose if I don't do economic damage before they hit lair. After hydras get out it's just so hard to kill drones.
I've also been experimenting with point defense drone, but I don't think it's as clutch as in the other two matchups. I think I might try throwing ghosts in for snipe and nukes.
Anyway, that's it for my rant. I think ultra-expanding is what I'm going to try next, after reading a bit more through this thread.
as a zerg, i gotta say that planetary fortress is so hard to deal with with any sort of ground army. You can just get so many scvs to repair, and before i can do enough damage, your ground army will be there to wipe up my battered remains. terran players should stop being so obsessed about mules or whatever the other command center upgrade is. planetary fortress is almost unkillable with ground army.
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this is aweesomeeee!
thanks
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Beautiful post! Even though i just switched from random to zerg, with future plans of P being my main race this article is still very interesting and informative. Good job!
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awesome post, it's very educational. You should add that the depots revealing the rest of your base are for countering/seeing nyduses in TvZ gameflow
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"I really don't see the benefit of adding tanks to your MMM army when you could add Thors to your MMM army. "
I really can't disagree with this more. Tanks and thors serve entirely different purposes and I can think of a dozen situations where thors would not serve the same purpose as your tanks.
Running MMM without tanks in a tvz match-up really isn't a good idea versus an opponent going baneling hydra etc.
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On May 12 2010 06:12 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 06:05 Logo wrote:Mass ravens aren't viable anymore I think, due to NP affecting air units now. I don' t think this is true. Raven's have 3 range on their PDD and the PDD has a range of 8. That would mean a raven can be up to 11 units away from the enemy and drop the PDD in battle and have it still affect the enemy. Infestor's 9 range on NP shouldn't be enough to hit the raven. You just have to be more protective of the raven now. As for harassing, the early ravens come out faster than infestors with NP since NP is researched. The infestors also need the 100 energy compared to 50 before meaning they will have to have been out for a while as well. As far as I'm aware, massing ravens just for PDD isn't a very viable strategy. But if you can provide a solid BO and at least 3 plat level replays (or some replays of top players using it) I'll add it to the guide.
qxc just won a bo5 using a mass raven strat vs a zerg in at least one of the games. The ravens literally won the games by themselves completely turning the game around.
Replays will be up here tomorrow: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=117793
edit: sorry for double post but they contain separate ideas so it should be ok.
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EPT
