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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
Truly phoenix is an inferior choice for countering mutas! Sure they may be effective in greater numbers but you'll have no use for them when the zerg switches. I counter mass mutas in SC2 practically the same way as in BW. Mass Stalkers and storm. Storm is truly awesome against muta in lategame. | ||
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Csirac
Australia55 Posts
This is theory but I'll give it a go but I really can't see it solving the main issue which is losig map control once mutas come out and the Zerg takes his 3rd and 4th | ||
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virusak
Czech Republic344 Posts
On April 23 2010 01:57 Atlas.Atlas wrote: Something to consider (and I have tried this and it works): Warp Prism. Now, every game is contextual, but I've found a double immortal drop can snipe queens with relative ease (and micro'ing around the lings/roaches) and destroy tech. Couple with this fact that even when a Warp Prism is deployed, it still cannot be attacked by ground units. Warping in a sentry or two with the immortals can create chaos inside the Zerg base with FF and delay tech. For a more gateway heavy build, load up the Warp Prism, drop, deploy, warp, chrono boost, rinse, repeat. When you see a Zerg saving his gas for mutas, it's your responsibility to do something about it. well at the time you have a warp prism, 2 immortals and something to defend your main, woudn't the zerg already have some mutas and kill the drop easily? | ||
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virusak
Czech Republic344 Posts
On April 23 2010 02:07 MaD.pYrO wrote: Mass mutas aren't much harder to counter than they were in BW, you just don't have the option of corsair. Truly phoenix is an inferior choice for countering mutas! Sure they may be effective in greater numbers but you'll have no use for them when the zerg switches. I counter mass mutas in SC2 practically the same way as in BW. Mass Stalkers and storm. Storm is truly awesome against muta in lategame. well I think any decent player can dodge storms pretty easily in sc2 compared to sc1. it is much harder to target properly due to 3D and the storm is also smaller... | ||
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Csirac
Australia55 Posts
On April 23 2010 02:07 MaD.pYrO wrote: Mass mutas aren't much harder to counter than they were in BW, you just don't have the option of corsair. Truly phoenix is an inferior choice for countering mutas! Sure they may be effective in greater numbers but you'll have no use for them when the zerg switches. I counter mass mutas in SC2 practically the same way as in BW. Mass Stalkers and storm. Storm is truly awesome against muta in lategame. you're missing a big point of the problem. You won't have storm until atleast 15 mins unto the game if ur massing stalkers with blink, while ur doing this he's harrassing ur base and expanding twice. And quite honestly any plat Zerg will dodge storms pretty effortlesly. I think the big problem here is the skill difeernce required to pull this start off as a Zerg and th skill required to defend it as a Protoss. You can imagine how it would be easy to defend in the lower leagues if the Z doesn't look after his mutas or lack common game sense, but it isn't the case in plat. | ||
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Toads
Canada1795 Posts
On April 23 2010 02:07 MaD.pYrO wrote: Mass mutas aren't much harder to counter than they were in BW, you just don't have the option of corsair. Truly phoenix is an inferior choice for countering mutas! Sure they may be effective in greater numbers but you'll have no use for them when the zerg switches. I counter mass mutas in SC2 practically the same way as in BW. Mass Stalkers and storm. Storm is truly awesome against muta in lategame. you forgot that a big thing who help protoss vs muta is the archon splash dgm who is almost gone in sc2 | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
And while I'm trying to mass those, I feel incredibly exposed to Speedling rushes while I'm using Stalkers and Sentries to stall the Mutas. If I just go pure Stalker/Sentry, I cannot put on any pressure. They'll always find something isolated to quickly snipe down as they fly around, and before long I've either over-committed on Stalkers/Sentries and get overrun, or I don't have enough Stalkers/Sentries and his Muta-ball obliterates everything without casualties. Banshees are just as bad, if not worse. I cannot figure out how to stop either of those units as Protoss. Our GtA is just so horribly pathetic. Its not like us going Void Rays and they just need a handful of Hydras or Marines to get rid of them entirely. You REALLY need to commit to something to get rid of them. | ||
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virusak
Czech Republic344 Posts
On April 23 2010 02:30 DragonDefonce wrote: My suggestion would be to no be so eager to punish him early on. If you also have 2 bases, you can build up an incredibly strong army thats heavy on stalkers and sentries, with some immortals and zealots mixed in. Just dig in, defend your mineral line, and push out when you think you have enough units to just steamroll through his base. the problem is, when that the zerg FE, has better economy and the mutas are much more mobile than you can be so he will fly from one base to another | ||
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Csirac
Australia55 Posts
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ccou
United States681 Posts
I guess my suggestion is to just make a tight base, make sure you have cannons in the back of your mineral lines and readily warp in sentries until you can get templars. | ||
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Csirac
Australia55 Posts
On April 23 2010 02:36 Bibdy wrote: I'm still trying to unravel the mystery of the build that beats FE->mass Lings + Spine Crawlers->mass Mutas. One Stargate definitely isn't enough to keep Phoenix production up with 2-base Muta production, so you really need to commit if you're going to get Phoenixes. And while I'm trying to mass those, I feel incredibly exposed to Speedling rushes while I'm using Stalkers and Sentries to stall the Mutas. If I just go pure Stalker/Sentry, I cannot put on any pressure. They'll always find something isolated to quickly snipe down as they fly around, and before long I've either over-committed on Stalkers/Sentries and get overrun, or I don't have enough Stalkers/Sentries and his Muta-ball obliterates everything without casualties. Banshees are just as bad, if not worse. I cannot figure out how to stop either of those units as Protoss. Our GtA is just so horribly pathetic. Its not like us going Void Rays and they just need a handful of Hydras or Marines to get rid of them entirely. You REALLY need to commit to something to get rid of them. glad to see someone sympathetic to my problem. WhAt rating/league are u in? Phoenixes is just not a solution as the Z can just out a hydra den down and tech switch. That's assuming u masses enough of them to cause the Z to stop makig mutas. Most if the time they'll just keep massing mutas and kill ur phoenixes | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
On April 23 2010 02:38 Csirac wrote: But u can't just sit on ur 2 base. The Z expands 4 base and will just run you down with sheer numbers. Id give a 2 base protoss about 15 minutes to build up a well compositioned army. So, up to that point, zerg can expand and spend money on saturating all those bases, or make units. If he decides to take additional bases, hes spreading himself very thin, and at 15 minute mark, you should be able to break thorugh if you macroed properly. The trick is obviously letting him spend lot of resources on drones and take advantage of that timing window to push out. If he spent that much money on crawlers as op suggested, he won't be able to expand too fast anyways. So I guess pushing out when he is just beginning to saturate his 3rd base might be a good idea. In general, I don't find zerg massing mutalisks too much of a problem to fight once I can mass up a ball of units. Because of the way that mining works in sc2, unlike sc1, having 20 drones in 3 different bases is just as effective have have 20 in 2 bases, meaning, it doesn't matter if he has 3, 4 bases unless he spend money to saturate all those bases. Not a fail proof plan but seems to work against gold/plat players in my experience. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
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virusak
Czech Republic344 Posts
On April 23 2010 02:51 FortuneSyn wrote: pressure the front early and get an obs or hallucinated unit in there in time and how would that help? you still won't be able to survive the mutas even if you saw them | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
This is EXTREMELY map dependent. Certain maps favor air rushes so much it's simply ridiculous. As a result, what strategy you use to counter mutas should vary based on the map. Also, no matter what map you should always, ALWAYS be walling off against a Zerg. It makes ling rushes so much less powerful and you don't need to spend as much resources defending against ground armies. For maps with a decent/short ground rush distance, still get your robo for that early obs. If you don't miss any timings, you should be able to get your obs inside their base in time to see the spire being built. I usually go 1gate, gas, core then robo when core is done.If you see a spire, start making stalkers and research blink ASAP. You need a very high number of stalkers, something like 1.5-2 stalkers for every muta they have. Sentries with shield will help also. I also advise you to build a few cannons at your mineral lines for the extra firepower. You should have the forge anyways for upgrades. The very important part of this is to continue scouting and teching. If you see that they have stopped producing mutas, then you must similarly stop producing stalkers and start getting more anti-ground forces. I find that HTs are a good transition unless they're going roaches because archons can also help as anti-muta. If you scout them expanding, send 4-6 zeals to go shut down the expo. You will be surprised at how much damage 4-6 chargelots can do. It's unlikely they'll have anything else other than lings due to the high cost of mutas. On maps with short air distances, like DO or scrap station, open with a stargate. Skip the robo entirely. Use your first phoenix to scout. Again, if you open with 1 gate into stargate and chrono the phoenix, your phoenix should get to their base in time to see the spire. If you see the spire, start pumping phoenix and stalkers.and try to expand before he gets too many mutas out. Once there are too many mutas, you won't be able to expo. Another alternative is to make a void ray instead of the first phoenix. It'll act as a good harasser and you should still be able to scout their base decently well. Often, the act of building a stargate and showing it to them will be enough to prevent them from making mutas. You want to maintain a 2:3 ratio of phoenix to mutas and YOU MUST MICRO THE PHOENIX. Target fire the mutas one by one or you will lose. Throw down another stargate if necessary, but try to not have more than 2 stargates. Build robo+obs when you can and like I said previously, do harassment of your own; deny expos, use warp prism harasses with some zeals, etc... EDIT: Stalkers with blink are an amazing thing. Don't see them just as a soft counter/defense against mutas. They are amazing harassers as well. In addition, if you practice blink micro you can make stalkers do much more damage than their cost. Watch Drunkbobby v. Idra for a good example of blink micro. Don't be afraid of making too many stalkers if they're going mass mutas. In addition, sentries FF will also be very effective at shutting down ground based harass and to protect your stalkers from lings. | ||
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Cooloff
United States86 Posts
On April 23 2010 02:30 DragonDefonce wrote: My suggestion would be to no be so eager to punish him early on. If you also have 2 bases, you can build up an incredibly strong army thats heavy on stalkers and sentries, with some immortals and zealots mixed in. Just dig in, defend your mineral line, and push out when you think you have enough units to just steamroll through his base. this makes a lot of sense, ive ran into this tons of times playing as Z against P. They hunker in with 2 minerals lines and photon up, i cant really see what hes doing but hes massing everything. then he comes out and steam rolls through all my units and then my mutas are their and he finishes those off. then with sentries, immortals and some stalkers starts picking off my expos. Very effective as toss | ||
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zaldinfox
Canada60 Posts
Is there any sense in skipping Robo by prioritizing Haluc? 12/Gate -> Gas -> Core -> Council -> +3 Gate Wall off. As soon as the core is done, skip warp gate, boost haluc and make 1 sentry. The wall should help vs. speedling run by. And a Haluc Phoenix will let you see what he is doing. You should see an expo going up and lair tech. Build another couple sentries and send out whatever you need to scout tech. At the 5 min mark (when you need the immortal push to work or the FE is solid) take an expo, cannons around minerals, and make Templar Archives. My thought is that the cannons and sentries will be enough to hold off muta harrass, giving you enough time to prepare HT. This forces the opponent to go Roaches (lower tier) or get eaten up by storms. If you go Collossus instead you are putting yourself in a bad position for two reasons: 1. Collosus are countered by Muta 2. You have to switch tech entirely. Now, if you had gone Robo first to get obs, and you see Muta, your scout will be slower and your collosus will be useless. But if you go Council first, you have option to upgrade both legs and blink, both of which are an asset vs. muta/hydra. A second possibility, building on use of hallucinate, is to hold off with cannons and a mix of stalkers/sentries, but when it comes time to push, instead of spamming FF or Shield, make a bunch of Haluc units... throw them in front and push hard. I use haluc even in small micro battles because they are basically FF with health. I would rather keep mobility in some instances and have a meat shield to absorb those first hydra hits. Either way, Muta means a heavy gas build for Protoss... | ||
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jamvng
Canada244 Posts
then add wargates later. | ||
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Clearout
Norway1060 Posts
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