On April 29 2010 05:44 gmerc wrote: then the terran is even MORE BEHIND...
sweet. i can dance 4 probes for that extra 15 seconds irl and still make more than income than the terran, after the 3rd gateway unit comes out, (stalker zel stalker) the terran has no chance of winning.
where is the calculation for 6/11 proxy rax ? add the scv bunker harass and the maurauder to counter the 1st stalker and its gg.
the reaper can get out at 2:54 almost directly in the toss base.
Dont look at the toss play it isnt the point, just look at the terran...
oh and let me add that this terran player got over 90% win as terran in platinum league. (last time starcraftrankings.com was updated)
I addressed this briefly in my post with regard to proxy rush.
That's the reason why I make an 8 pylon and scout with probe instead of the faster stalker 10/11. My probe will have covered almost all proxy spots before the 6 proxy gateway would have gone up. I just did a test and my scouting probe covered all the areas near the edge of my cliff on blistering sand at around the 1:20 mark. His barracks finished building around 1:45, this gives me 25 more seconds to search for proxy barracks around if he tries a weird spot. If I have found his proxy barrack early on, he would not even be able to get it finished and if I find it relatively late, I will simply use the delay tech lab tactic above to almost infinitely delay his tech lab while bringing another 2 probes from base to help. You can afford this since if you stop his tech lab from building you won the game already, 6 rax proxy is as all in as you can get. The key here is to look for proxies early, if you don't find any then go to his base to scout, you will still get there in time for most standard 8-10 rax reaper rushes before his barrack is complete. Once you scout it, infinitely delay the tech lab or at least for as long as you can since if you look at the video, the terran only has 10/11 population, that's only 8 scvs. He would have to kill more than 7 of your 15 or so scvs by that time in order to at least break even. If you did the scouting properly you should be able to hold him off long enough to get your stalker out.
As to the maradur transition after, I immediately tech to a robotics facility with my first 100 gas after warp gate research and the stalker. Then build zealots until I have 100 gas again and get a chrono boosted sentry ASAP to block off ramps. Then I build a chrono boosted immortal with my robotics facility first and observer second. This immortal + zealots + sentries should be enough to hold off any maradur rush early without ghosts. Usually if they attack me before the sentry gets out, they don't have nearly enough to kill my stalker + zealot and pulled 3 probes army. If they don't attack until the sentry gets out (which gets out pretty early) then I forcefield the ramp when they do and by then I will have held on long enough for my immortal to almost be out or even out already. I have not done extensive testing on this matter yet but from all the games I played so far, I have not faced a terran who could break me with a maradur push without ghost unless they were hugely successful with their initial reaper rush.
In addition, in the video, instead of putting 4-5 probes on the reaper and 3 or so on the scv building the bunker, he only attacked the scv with almost all his probes early on. This lets the reaper get free hits off without fear of being attacked, if he had split his probes the bunker would not go up and he would not lose as many scvs as he did early.
Edited: Yes, it would be really hard to hold against that rush if you never found his proxy barracks but if he's clever enough to be able to hide his proxy for 60 seconds (my pylon is built around 0:45 and probes scouts immediately after and his barracks is up at 1:45), then by all means he deserves the win lol.
You cannot get to the terrans base fast enough to 10 gate or anything and you lose a ton of minerals... just casually gate on 12 and cyber immidiately.
it seems alot of people problems are like self-harassment, double chrono stalker? scout on 8? 10 gate?
get more probes, micro those probes. crush terrans who have been cheesing the bad protoss in plat.
On April 29 2010 05:49 gmerc wrote: thats why i said.. "why do calculations if u cant probe micro?" if you cant stop it, its because u cant micro probes.
good micro with reaper around the building and you can kite the probe. 90,75% win as terran...
206win 21loss
maybe he didnt do that build everytime (1-2% of times) maybe his net crashed. (1%) maybe he failed to micro reaper properly (3-4%) oh and he played against zerg/terran/toss since its ladder stats.
i bet he never lost to a toss a player. so who can micro ?
On April 29 2010 05:37 gmerc wrote: why do any calculations if you cant micro probes properly...
BECAUSE THIS BUILD get the reaper in the toss base 24sec faster than any other build calculated by Fangzhou.
and this is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.
people think they can defend against reaper because they faced weak variant... but the 6/11 IS really OP
FOR HOW TO STOP 6/RAX REAPER RUSH, PLEASE MY POST ON PAGE 22
fangzhou came up with the rest of the calculation for slower reaper builds, however, since you acn stop 6/rax reaper you can stop anything later... orb is right in the sense that this discussion just keeps looping over and over again. i cant believe this thread is still here 24 pages after people have found solutions to it... seriously... the answer is already provided in the fucking 24 pages of this tissue issue... just because orb says something is overpowered and imba doesnt mean it is.. for fuck sakes, he rages every single game that he loses that something wasn't balanced or that his opponent somehow lucked out.. if orb had his way, terran wouldn't even have mauraders or reapers.. they'd just have a barracks with marines and zero-tech options...
6rax reaper opening is not OP, are you the best player in the world or something and can't stop it? obviously not if 90% of the average platinum players can... obviously its not OP because if it was OP it would be mainstream by now.
Seriously.. stop looking at numbers and go play a game. Micro is the key. GLhf.
edit:
micro around a building? so what. its not like reapers turn corners faster or anything.. its still a chase path. oh no.. now my probes coming around the other side get to get two hits off..
wow 10 seconds gone already? good thing he 6 raxed instead of 10.. hes wasting a ton of time...
On April 29 2010 05:49 gmerc wrote: thats why i said.. "why do calculations if u cant probe micro?" if you cant stop it, its because u cant micro probes.
good micro with reaper around the building and you can kite the probe. 90,75% win as terran...
206win 21loss
maybe he didnt do that build everytime (1-2% of times) maybe his net crashed. (1%) maybe he failed to micro reaper properly (3-4%) oh and he played against zerg/terran/toss since its ladder stats.
i bet he never lost to a toss a player. so who can micro ?
have you ever thought about the fact that he was just a really good player and didn't open with reapers EVERY GAME? were you there to witness all 227 games that he played or something? saying something is overpowered on the basis of some guy's awesome record is completely un-academic and has no arguementitive value what so ever...
guess what, on the asian server there are 80-90% every race.. i guess every race must be OP then right?
On April 29 2010 05:57 gmerc wrote: Don't scout with your 8 probe.
You cannot get to the terrans base fast enough to 10 gate or anything and you lose a ton of minerals... just casually gate on 12 and cyber immidiately.
it seems alot of people problems are like self-harassment, double chrono stalker? scout on 8? 10 gate?
get more probes, micro those probes. crush terrans who have been cheesing the bad protoss in plat.
With the 8 scout you will be able to get to the Terran's base way before any barrack variation aside from 6 rax finishes. The timing you get to delay his tech lab is invaluable in this match up imo. Since he will be cutting scvs early to do this reaper harras. The mineral you lose from this scouting probe not mining is not that significant. In addition, with my 12 gate strategy mentioned before, the mineral count fits perfectly even with the scouting probe not mining. I do not have 1 second of gap in between buildings or units production so the difference is minerals is not realized until later on in the game. Yes, overall you will get less minerals, but not less than the terran certainly not less enough for me to offset the importance of tech lab delaying and breaking proxy raxs.
On April 29 2010 06:05 gmerc wrote: So, you sacrafice a probe to see if you should chrono your stalker or just another probe?
If u invariably 12 gate whats the point?
The point being I can get inside his base before his barracks finishes so when it does, I can stand the probe or build a pylon then cancel at where his tech lab would go down, he would be forced to lift up his barracks and I'll make my probe stand below his barrack landing zone for as long as I can and by then another good 6-7 seconds has gone by, and his reaper rush is A LOT less effective. It is not whether I should chrono stalker or probe since in my post I chrono boost the stalker regardless (I'm assuming you didn't read my original post since it was wall of text, understandable but don't assume you know what I was trying to say before you do).
In addition, I can stop a lot of proxy cheese strategies with this probe. It should be noted I only scout with 8 probe against Terran in maps not Kulas Ravine since the reaper rush is extremely common. Against other races, yes I keep it there for the additional minerals.
Oh and I will post a replay sometime in the near future. Going to be busy with exams until Friday so I will post a replay this weekend probably.
if you get to his base and see him mining gas.. now what? the probe wasted his time since u are boosting ur 12 gated stalker anyway.
the point i was trying to make is that a reaper harass is really really bad against proper probe micro. to the point where you don't need to harm urself to also harm the rush. you just stall it, then crush it.
Seriously, could we get a replay of a protoss fighting off a 6 rax -> marauder anytime soon? (with both players being anatomically normal and equipped with a brain)
Starcraft on paper seriously isn't the same as in-game starcraft.
Orb was way ahead after the first stalker came out.
The grave mistake I think was just that he only had a single stalker to protect his base. If they got a reaper out before even your standard core comes out, I think it's safe to say their worker count is like half as much as yours. At the time the stalker popped out, Orb had almost 50% more probes. If he just built 1 or 2 more stalkers, he could have protected the front AND mineral line from reapers. Instead he just kept on chronoboosting workers.
Before the 2nd reaper attack which was really the killing blow, orb had twice as many workers. The 2nd attack which consisted of 3 reapers killed off enough probes to the point where orb has 2 less workers. I think that's what you call "The defender's game to lose". Defender definitely needs to keep their cool and control much better than the attacker. Though most cheese builds are like that.
EPT
