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On April 28 2010 22:49 STS17 wrote:
So, -orb-, oh almighty one, if the fast stalker doesn't stop it then what does? You seem to have so much greater of a knowledge base and skill for SC2 then anyone else here that your opinion must be the absolute truth.
I don't see how you can say something doesn't stop something when players are posting that that is the strategy they use to counter it on a regular basis
Please let me take the time to tell you that I have read every single post in this thread (and that includes the OP) so I suppose that excludes this thread from your criteria of flaming.
However, I am really curious what your suggestion is (as I have not seen a single constructive thing out of you for several pages of posts - while you demand it of everyone else) for a protoss player to stop/counter/minimize losses when facing this strategy.
Because while all these retards keep posting things like "fast stalker beats it," I have posted a replay that shows that it DOESN'T, while they haven't posted a single replay showing fast stalker beating it other than the occasional one where the terran executes it incorrectly (like the one a little while back where the reaper attacks for cyber core for 30 seconds instead of probes)
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How come -orb- isn't banned yet? His insults are not constructive AND not funny at all....
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On April 28 2010 22:55 Infiltrator wrote:
I think the main issue here is that people THINK they are being reaper rushed, but it is executed badly by the Ts part, fails in some way and somehow it's automatically assumed the rush is easily countered.
It's not and I can't fathom why Blizz hasn't fixed it yet. A good reaper harass will always come on top of you and put you under submission from the get go, even if you go 10 gate 10 pylon (which is already a huge eco hit).
The way I do it is send 5 probes on the reaper, then retreat the ones he starts picking off while running away. This doesn't work if he's half decent at microing the reaper. And the fact that you went 10 gate + pulled probes that early is bullshit even if you theoretically don't lose a single probe to the reaper.
I've personally yet to meet anyone who can micro a reaper to fight proper probe/zealot micro effectively. (By that I mean, killing several probes while running around, despite the protoss pulling probes back)
As said before, in the past several weeks I literally can not remember a time that 10 pylon 10 gate has had me lose to a reaper rush, and I've been playing terrans ranging from top players to mid plat players.
10 pylon 10 gate really isn't that huge of a hit to your economy, and allows you to to do stalker harassment earlier too.
I still believe there could be a nerf on the tech building to get reapers/marauders, but this build is nowhere near as hard to deal with as people believe, and once you deal with it you're extremely far ahead economy wise.
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On April 29 2010 00:24 Lythis wrote:
How come -orb- isn't banned yet? His insults are not constructive AND not funny at all....
because some people need to be told that they're retarded
half the people are like "lol if you're retarded you'll only lose one probe"
or "lol get a stalker and you won't lose any probes"
meanwhile people are saying "look at nazgul's sick defense; he only lost four probes"
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I don't think people understand that losing probes to a 6-rax reaper rush is expected and is fair (you have like 14-16 to his 8 by the time his reaper gets there?) It evens out because by the time you get your stalker out you have equivelant economy and forces to deal with each other. Its the equivelant to a 6-ling rush. No-econ. If you don't run your probes away or micro them properly you will LOSE. Zealot to stall is not that far-out depending on the situation. Stalker will come out before reaper reaches your base if he goes 10-rax. The only difference is Terran and Zerg is Terran can recover faster with MULES. So while -orb- complains that he keeps getting replays of this reaper rush failing because the reaper-user was a complete noob, he fails to realize that 90% of the people on battle.net can't execute a perfect reaper rush while a small % of protoss players can't execute a perfect anti-reaper build. Orb falls within this small %age. Whether you want to use this meta-game vs him in a tournament is up to you  .
I anticipate lots of nerd rage from orb's PVT incoming due to the recent new strategy of fast-rauder bunker push.
btw...
On April 03 2010 02:40 -orb- wrote:
Thanks for advice and suggestions.
yeah... you are so thankful...
definition of a suggestion: an attempted solution to YOUR problem. at least people try to help you. all you do is talk mad-shit when they don't tell you what you want to hear.
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RoboFerret - a good reaper player will just circlestrafe (FPS lingo, I dont know how else to put this) your probes and go after the injured ones. The pathing in this game is done in such way that if a unit cuts its (melee) attackers perpendicular trajectory, the attacker gets pushed back and the unit is able to go by him unharmed. This is further in the reaper's favor because of his increased speed.
Like I said, I think you might not be properly reaper rushed, because even with the preparation, you lose probes to good reaper control no matter how fast your stalker pops out.
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On April 29 2010 00:24 Lythis wrote:
How come -orb- isn't banned yet? His insults are not constructive AND not funny at all....
Same with the posts that has been posted 500 times in this thread without reading the OP.
I've been having the same problems. Lower league than platinium > full of these people. There's no way you can block it with fast stalker. Atleast i haven't been able to do so.
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Not that I'm one to talk because I'm way too lazy to search through all my replays, but do you happen to have any replays or know of any vods of that Infiltrator? I know what you mean by circlestrafing, and the melee pathing and stuff, but I'm curious to see an example of it.
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On April 29 2010 00:27 RoboFerret wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 22:55 Infiltrator wrote:
I think the main issue here is that people THINK they are being reaper rushed, but it is executed badly by the Ts part, fails in some way and somehow it's automatically assumed the rush is easily countered.
It's not and I can't fathom why Blizz hasn't fixed it yet. A good reaper harass will always come on top of you and put you under submission from the get go, even if you go 10 gate 10 pylon (which is already a huge eco hit).
The way I do it is send 5 probes on the reaper, then retreat the ones he starts picking off while running away. This doesn't work if he's half decent at microing the reaper. And the fact that you went 10 gate + pulled probes that early is bullshit even if you theoretically don't lose a single probe to the reaper. I've personally yet to meet anyone who can micro a reaper to fight proper probe/zealot micro effectively. (By that I mean, killing several probes while running around, despite the protoss pulling probes back) As said before, in the past several weeks I literally can not remember a time that 10 pylon 10 gate has had me lose to a reaper rush, and I've been playing terrans ranging from top players to mid plat players. 10 pylon 10 gate really isn't that huge of a hit to your economy, and allows you to to do stalker harassment earlier too. I still believe there could be a nerf on the tech building to get reapers/marauders, but this build is nowhere near as hard to deal with as people believe, and once you deal with it you're extremely far ahead economy wise.
I always start with a 10 pylon 10 gate as well against terran. It's really not that huge of an econ hit, especially if u see that he isn't reaper rushing with ur probe scout because you aren't in such a rush for a stalker anymore. You really only need to get a zealot out to chase him around before your stalker is out. Yes, you will lose a few probes maybe and yes your zealot might not be able to kill him but the idea is so that he isn't standing there shooting at ur probes. Your zealot is just there to buy you some time for your stalker to come out. If anything, i think an early marauder with concussive shell is more deadly than a reaper rush.
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On April 29 2010 00:17 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2010 22:49 STS17 wrote:
So, -orb-, oh almighty one, if the fast stalker doesn't stop it then what does? You seem to have so much greater of a knowledge base and skill for SC2 then anyone else here that your opinion must be the absolute truth.
I don't see how you can say something doesn't stop something when players are posting that that is the strategy they use to counter it on a regular basis
Please let me take the time to tell you that I have read every single post in this thread (and that includes the OP) so I suppose that excludes this thread from your criteria of flaming.
However, I am really curious what your suggestion is (as I have not seen a single constructive thing out of you for several pages of posts - while you demand it of everyone else) for a protoss player to stop/counter/minimize losses when facing this strategy. Because while all these retards keep posting things like "fast stalker beats it," I have posted a replay that shows that it DOESN'T, while they haven't posted a single replay showing fast stalker beating it other than the occasional one where the terran executes it incorrectly (like the one a little while back where the reaper attacks for cyber core for 30 seconds instead of probes)
Yes, you have posted a few replays showing the harass properly executed - I believe the site policy is 8+ replays from platinum level players before arguing anything is imba or unfair. I recognize that the rush gets a reaper in there faster then the protoss can produce a response to it but that's the point of a rush isn't it?
And let's examine a couple other points. The Terran player is going all-in by sacrificing almost all of his economy for some extreme early aggression - why should we be so great as to assume that it can be fended off with a standard economic build? Even so, its literally impossible for you to lose the game before you can get a stalker out and once he is out the rush becomes severely hampered. At this point you are effectively "back in the game, but still on the defensive" as you can assume a marauder should be soon to follow.
Now, cool your rage, as I understand that is essentially what all these "retards" above have been saying so my question is - have you considered sending your first zealot straight into their base to kill off his SCVs? Your scout should give you enough time to send the first (chronoboosted) zealot towards them and even if you reach his base after his reaper begins harassing yours he can't possible micro his reaper and SCVs simultaneously (at least not enough to remain effective) and his lost mining time will cripple his ability to respond. If he sends his reaper into his base to defend against your zealot then you have stopped the rush as you now have ample time to react and if he keeps it in your base its business as usual defending it - except he now has no resources to back up the rush.
Again, I am not a Protoss player and I don't use this rush as Terran so I may or may not be completely off here - though it does seem to work on paper.
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On April 29 2010 00:30 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2010 00:24 Lythis wrote:
How come -orb- isn't banned yet? His insults are not constructive AND not funny at all.... because some people need to be told that they're retarded half the people are like "lol if you're retarded you'll only lose one probe" or "lol get a stalker and you won't lose any probes" meanwhile people are saying "look at nazgul's sick defense; he only lost four probes"
It seems obvious that you aren't comming away from this rush without losing some probes. I don't think anyone has denied that but it seems that Orb is intent on finding a build that absolutely avoids all loss which simply isn't possibile.
Hence people say things like "micro a little to minimize loss while you wait for stalker." Keep in mind that the terran isn't exactly flowing in cash if he devoted to a rush. If its a 6rax it's pretty much all in and if it's a 8 or 10rax even if you lose 5 probes you can easily CB back those numbers while remaining pretty even economically.
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Though I play terran myself I must say a 6 rax proxy reaper rush is very strong on certain maps.
Though it can certainly be countered by all races it more or less forces people to scout very early, or go certain BO to make sure they dont face it, which in return puts the opponent on a disadvantage if the Terran opts for something different.
For zerg anything higher then a 10 pool will instaloose, same goes for a toss who doesnt earlygate + core, and same goes for a terran who opts for a normal 10 supply 12 rax build.
Also even while a 9 rax reaper feels all in, it is a strat that can easily get an economic advantage over your opponents.
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On April 29 2010 00:46 STS17 wrote:
have you considered sending your first zealot straight into their base to kill off his SCVs? Your scout should give you enough time to send the first (chronoboosted) zealot towards them and even if you reach his base after his reaper begins harassing yours he can't possible micro his reaper and SCVs simultaneously (at least not enough to remain effective) and his lost mining time will cripple his ability to respond.
THIS is a decent suggestion... and as far as I can tell, the first decent suggestion. This should work if he proxy-raxed, and if he didn't you should have time to get a stalker.
Although this has the potential to counter proxy-reaper, this still doesn't solve the problem of the protoss being forced to go fast stalker because you don't have time to scout it out.
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Lol.. hey who am i..
HAI GAIZ HEREZ MATH
Spawning pewl 80 sekunds
zurglung 28 sekunds
THATS 145 SECONDS BEFORE THEY GET IN UR BASE
ITS UNDEFENDATLBE
QED.
seriously though. the solution is there.. it works..
the amount that is invested is pretty severe. especially if a bunker gets involved. and if you micro probes properly (they are faster and take 3 shots to die), you should be miles ahead...
this thread is starting to take up valuable first page space..
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I've gotten banned for saying Flash on HBR is imba, and this guy is still around cursing people out!
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You don't have to get the Stalker out before the Reaper. Just be well on your way to getting one by the time it arrives. You'll take Probe casualties, sure. Even more if they try to make a bunker on top of it. But, considering the Terran's build order of having two SCVs making buildings incredibly quickly, and collecting gas, his economy is going to be hurt, big-time.
If they do a more eco-friendly Reaper-rush build, the 10Gate-14Core build stomps it utterly. Just make sure to make 2 Stalkers in case they try luring one away and sending another in the other side. I like to do that and make them think I'm being lured away, then his second Reaper runs head-first into a different Stalker.
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. Total Time Elapsed
Economic fast stalker (not fastest stalker) fastest stalker would result in disadvantage if terran were to use any other strategy
Probe (17) 9 food pylon Current Game Time34 seconds)
Pylon(25) (59 seconds)
11 food Gate(65) (small break) (124 seconds)
Cyber(50) + zealot (33) (157 seconds)
Stalker(42) (chrono 50%) (28) (185 seconds)
Note: at this time you have ~16 probes
Proxy Barracks Reaper
Allow conservative 17 seconds to travel to proxy location (17 seconds)
Barracks (60)(assuming enough minerals by now) (77 seconds)
Tech Lab (25) (102 seconds)
Reaper (40) (scv now in your base) (140 seconds)
Reaper travel (8) (conservative half a probe time) (148 seconds)
Bunker (30)
STOP
If you can hold off the reaper for 40 game seconds on speed "Fast" you win. This is approximately 30 seconds in real life.
40 seconds to kill your zealot and 7 probes to be even to terran 8 scv...
Do you really think you can lose 7 probes and a zealot within half a minute? (Well, maybe you would Orb...) The only time this would ever happen is if the zealot went straight at the reaper and didn't micro and didn't move away his probes and played horrible. But no, since you assume the reaper-rusher is perfect, it is okay to assume that the Protoss player is perfect too. So-to-speak a perfect protoss player would never lose to a perfect terran reaper-rusher.
Also.. at the end of 40 game seconds, the second reaper is only finished out of his barracks and on his way, not in your base. Ample time to chase down the first one and kill it or chase it out of range of your mineral line so you don't get flanked by the 2nd reaper.
I did the same math you did and came out with the same conclusion. 30 seconds. Yet somehow I'm able to consistently beat this strategy and you aren't. Maybe you are doing something wrong or can't micro. Who knows? (Cares)
QED.
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The terran will have 10 scvs when the reaper comes out btw, but your point is still valid.
If you chase the reaper with a zealot AND a few probes, it will have a hard time actually dealing any damage, because you can't kite and shoot perfectly (in other words you either have to run for longer than the firing delay or you have to take some damage, because probes and zealot will catch up with you).
This rush isn't any more OP than the 2 gate proxy in BW (with gay wall blocking and shield battery).
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A chronod stalker takes 32 seconds.
20 boosted takes away 30 units of time.
12 remaining units of time.
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On April 29 2010 00:42 RoboFerret wrote:
Not that I'm one to talk because I'm way too lazy to search through all my replays, but do you happen to have any replays or know of any vods of that Infiltrator? I know what you mean by circlestrafing, and the melee pathing and stuff, but I'm curious to see an example of it.
You can see it almost any game when a peon tries to deny the other peon to build something. Basically the enemy sets his peon to attack you, and you just circle strafe your own one. Both workers are very close, but the one doing the deny is actually circling around him in melee range a lot and just keeps bumping the one who is trying to attack him.
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EPT
