EPT[H] Holding off Super Fast Reaper? - Page 23
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NightOne
Canada215 Posts
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gmerc
Canada45 Posts
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NightOne
Canada215 Posts
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gmerc
Canada45 Posts
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NightOne
Canada215 Posts
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Saturn
United States17 Posts
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Fangzhou
United States199 Posts
I am going to go pretty in-depth about this analysis so forgive me for a wall of text. Let me first state some simple facts: - Roughly 1.4 seconds in replay speed is equivalent to 1 second in faster speed (in game speed) - The average time a 10 rax reaper gets out is at 3:19, with 9 rax being about 3:15 and 8 rax at 3:07. - The shortest travel distance out of the current map pool is 12-3, 6-9 position on Lost Temple, it takes roughly 17 seconds replay time to reach attacking range of your mineral line (19 seconds on Metropolis). - With an 8 rax reaper rush, he has 10 scvs by the time he gets to your base. With 9 rax he will have 13 scvs and lastly with 10 rax he will have 15 scvs. If he opts for an early orbital command instead of scv production then you can take off around 2-3 scvs from his scv count. This means 8 Rax - to your probe at 3:24 with 10 scvs 9 Rax - to your probe at 3:32 with 13 scvs 10 Rax - to your probe at 3:36 with 15 scvs Here's my build that counters it and does not put me behind economically even if he doesn't reaper rush. 8 Pylon (Chrono boost the first probe right after) and Scout with Probe 12 Gate (Chrono boost the first probe right after) 14 Assimilator 15 Pylon blocking off the back of mineral line (You should have this 100 mineral right before the 15th probe finishes) 16 Cyber (You should have this 150 mineral right when the 16th probe finishes) Keep making probes 17 Zealot (With first 100 mineral, Chrono Boosted) 20 Stalker (Chrono Boosted) 22 Assimilator Transition to whatever normal build you want to. With this build, the first zealot gets out at 3:27, first stalker will be out by 4:07 roughly. This means I have roughly 43-31 seconds (depending on which build he goes) before my first stalker gets out. It should be realized that this 43-31 replay seconds only converts to 30-22 seconds of actual gameplay time. By the time he reachs your base, you will have 17 probes. He needs to kill 7/4/2 to break even. The reaper's attack speed has a 1.1 second cooldown (the cooldown is in replay time) so if left untouched he will get off about 39-28 attacks off on you. This will kill you right there and that's why you need to be pulling 4 probes and your zealot on the reaper to attack. Your zealot does 16 damage per hit and probes does 5 each. So essentially your zealot 3 shots reapers and reapers will 2 shot any probe and 9 shot a zealot. He will most likely be focusing on your probes chasing him (if he doesn't gg he just did a completely useless reaper harras). The probes move as essentially the same speed as the reaper, so he cannot take many hits at a probe without kiting a long distance after to avoid getting hit. just pull back every one that has been hit, if he chases to kill that probe, he will be running towards your probes and zealots and you will do 5 * 3 + 16 = 31 damage to him. 2 of those hits and the reaper is dead (even after you pull one you will do 26 damage so still enough for 2 hitting), so he can't really afford to be chasing to kill the probe. Each time you pull a probe, add another one on him if he is relatively close to your mineral line. If you chased him all the way to the edge of the base already then just pull back all probes and keep your zealot on him, you already wasted enough of his time to get your stalker out before he can do any serious damage. By doing this strategy, you will have effectively reduced the number of attacks he would be doing by a signiciant amount. Yes, he will still kill about 2-3 maybe even 4 probes before your stalker is out since he has ranged attack but you will have an advantage against 8 rax (if he managed to kill more than 6 then you just have really bad micro with this strat and needs to practice more), and have a very small advantage/disadvantage compared to him with 9 or 10 rax. It is definitely not gamebreaking. In addition, 1 very useful tactic I have been using lately against terran is to delay the tech lab for as long as I can with the scouting probe at 8. With this early probe you need to be checking for common proxy spots (the one in your replay on Desert Oasis is like the most common spot for terran, I ALWAYS check it first since I been beat by it a lot before). If you scouted his proxy just attack the scv and enjoy the free win if you kill it or gets it to stop building. If you arrived too late to stop the barrack from finishing then, what I do is hang around where the tech lab would come out for as long as I can. The proxy scv cannot do anything to me since I will have more hp than it from eariler attacks. He would have to lift up barracks to reposition, at this time just move under the barracks and try to keep him from landing for as long as u can. If you do not scout a proxy barrack, then proceed to his base, you will still get to his base before his barrack finishes (if on LT or Metropolis check the 12-3, 6-9 spawn first since that's the only spots where reaper rush is extremely dangerous, every other map is either 1v1 or big enough for it to not be that effective). At his base you will do the same thing with the tech lab delay, but this time he will most likely pull a scv or 2 to try to attack you, I just simply build a pylon where his tech lab would be and force him to lift his barracks, and cancel my pylon after he lifts off. This usually delays him for a good bit and makes his reaper rush a lot less effective. If you ever see a terran trying to bunker in your base, IMMEDIATELY pull probes to kill the scv or use your zealot, if you do this, it will never get up. If he starts the bunker after his reaper gets there, you need to pull additional probes that wasn't already targeting the reaper to do this so he can't just kill the probes that are attacking the scv. I also want to just state this is all in a hypothetical perfect scenario, chances are you won't micro your probes that perfectly but then again he probably won't micro his reaper perfectly either. But now at least we know at the highest level of play, this strategy is not overpowered. To Orb: A couple of things I have noticed about your play in your replays. Your fastest gateway strategies cut way too many probes in the beginning and therefore does give you room for letting probes die to the harras. Your stalker will never get out before his reaper does so the safest way is just to make so many more probes than him so even after he kills a couple, you still have about the same as him. You are very slow about pulling probes to kill the scv and that resulted in the bunkers going up a lot of the time, if you haven't let that happen, the reaper rush will be tremedously easier to defend against. Lastly (this is minor but still), you almost always go 9 pylon with a chrono boost on 10. I think that's a very bad idea, if you go 9 pylon you need to be chrono'ing on 11, or 8 pylon chrono on 9. By going 9 pylon and chronoing the probe right after, you waste 5 seconds of the 20 second chrono boost while waiting for the pylon to finish and a full 10 seconds if you decide to go gate and not make a probe immediately after. You are not taking full advantage of your chrono boost when you do this, but perhaps you know something about this that I do not and in that case, I hope you would enlighten me. Finally I just want to once again apologize for this enormous wall of text, I don't know how to get my point across otherwise. I also want to say to Orb that I know you are a lot better player than me (in fact, you are in my division =D). However I think your frustration against the reaper rush is not letting you see the bigger picture clearly =/. This is just my 2 cents. If I made any error in my analysis please let me know! | ||
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DamageInq
United States283 Posts
I just figured there was an alternate reasoning behind it. | ||
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RonNation
United States385 Posts
i usually 10 gate 10 core to get out a quick stalker | ||
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gmerc
Canada45 Posts
Does anyone know definitively what build is superior? | ||
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
where is the calculation for 6/11 proxy rax ? add the scv bunker harass and the maurauder to counter the 1st stalker and its gg. the reaper can get out at 2:54 almost directly in the toss base. Dont look at the toss play it isnt the point, just look at the terran... oh and let me add that this terran player got over 90% win as terran in platinum league. (last time starcraftrankings.com was updated) | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 29 2010 05:17 RonNation wrote: great post fangzhou i usually 10 gate 10 core to get out a quick stalker I hope that second number is a typo. You can't build a Core before the Gateway is finished. You can get 4 more Probes and an Assimilator going in that time. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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gmerc
Canada45 Posts
Dont look at the toss play it isnt the point, just look at the terran... no, it is exactly the point. the protoss did a terrible job, and the bunker placement doesnt even stop mining... | ||
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
On April 29 2010 05:28 gmerc wrote: no, it is exactly the point. the protoss did a terrible job, and the bunker placement doesnt even stop mining... dude its because everyone is talking about weak proxy reaper attack, this is the strongest proxy possible. who care about 7/11 or 8/11 when u can make a 6/11 and get the reaper faster.... i held off a lot of fast reaper but this one is different. edit: and the bunker placement is to protect the reaper, because its in the way of the probe. | ||
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gmerc
Canada45 Posts
This guy does a terrible job of probe micro, hes like forcing a fight before his stalker comes out.. wtf? well no shit 2 reapers + 1 scv can kill 8 probes.. the point is to delay for a stalker, not fend off... micro better. did you see the income the terran had? it was hilariously low. edit: and he built a zelot first... lol... | ||
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
the fastest build is the 6/11. (if i base myself on Fangzhou calculation its 24second faster than every build he calculated...) 7/11 or 8/11 are so LAST MONTH. | ||
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gmerc
Canada45 Posts
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
On April 29 2010 05:37 gmerc wrote: why do any calculations if you cant micro probes properly... BECAUSE THIS BUILD get the reaper in the toss base 24sec faster than any other build calculated by Fangzhou. and this is a HUGE DIFFERENCE. people think they can defend against reaper because they faced weak variant... but the 6/11 IS really OP | ||
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gmerc
Canada45 Posts
sweet. i can dance 4 probes for that extra 15 seconds irl and still make more than income than the terran, after the 3rd gateway unit comes out, (stalker zel stalker) the terran has no chance of winning. | ||
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