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On April 03 2010 04:34 zazen wrote:
I just feel it's EXTREMELY safer to wait till i'm 20-21 pop to make my expo against T.
Right now in this game there are 2 big reasons you shouldn't just assume it's "safe" to do something like 14 hatch opening against T:
1- reaper harass
2- bunker rush
the "safest" map for early expo is probably Blistering Sands and maybe Scrap Station. Rush distance is longer on Desert Oasis but the distance from your natural expo to your main is also long and the T can usually just bypass your expo direct into your main (bad), not to mention this is a great map for Reapers. Once again, worth mentioning that Kulas Ravine is the most overpowered map for T in the game and just play safest as possible every game there and expect a very early T expand on his protected natural (which is lame and hard to counter).
the problem isnt 14 hat, whoever 14 hats deserves to lose right away. Its that reapers scout u out while delaying everything and then the terran can prepare a perfect midgame counter to whatever u decided to do against the reapers. Its basically a 0% information against 100% information game for as long as T manages to keep some reapers alive (and good ts have no problem keeping those things alive forever).
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I don't see how this is preventable. I've been using it since this thread, and every time I have been stopped, I've won, at most, 10 mins later. It's exactly as diehilde says.
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I would go lings to fast speedlings then just mass up while leaving a small defensive force in base. Zerg can make units a lot faster than Terran... exploit it.
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On April 03 2010 04:19 Kyuki wrote:I just dont understand the complaint of having a build that is revolved around worse economy and harrass is making a Fast expand build that is heavily economically focused hard or even countered. And that it would make the MU shallow? So "10pool10gas speedlings makes 14 rax, 15 CC obsolete - that makes for a shallow matchup." Do you have any terran experience btw? 1 base terran with MULE can only do so much you know. The way it seems to work now is that since zerg has a way of beeing able to saturate two bases EXTREMLY fast due to queen mechanics, the other races either open up with ways to prolong the saturation time to catch up into midgame where the zerg exploads if not beeing tempered with, or just open up with builds that straight up will kill them quite early, i.e timing pushes, i.e punish the zerg for beeing greedy. If you could get away with this fast expand EVERY time without having to beeing forced into building units/static defense, it would be a very shallow game. Luckily it isnt  And tbh Slurgis play and specially opening seemed quite weak imo and very susceptible to banelings. His army was very Marine heavy for that type of midgame push. He also controled the ZN towers, even the one on your side when you had your army just bellow it, and when he moved in on you he scanned you and got the attackers advantage of stimming and moving in, getting the first shots in which more than rarely plays a huge role in the bigger clashes.
I'd like to counter by asking if you've had any experience playing Zerg? 1 base zerg generally maens 1 hatchery + 1 queen. This is much much weaker than 1 base terran. Unless you propose that its good to put a 2nd hatch in your main vs terran, which in my experience, doesn't work out very well unless you do some all in.
In my opinion, terran isn't designed to need that fast expo, while zerg is. This is mostly due to the fact that hatcheries double as command center and barracks. Using a hatchery in your main base that doesn't serve as an expansion is simply not worth it. The long build time and high capital cost doesn't make it as efficient as a barracks, in terms of building fighting units.
Terrans on the other hand can afford to stay on one base longer, since they have biuldings specially designed to produce just fighting units. You wouldn't build a command center and just have it sit in your main so that you could produce marauders faster. Thats not how the race works. On top of this, a 1 base terran using MULEs can out-mine a 1 base zerg in all instances, further supporting the zerg's necessity to have an expansion.
the reason it makes the match up shallow is that the Terran's decision to make a reaper early doesn't actually deviate his normal and natural build order as much it forces the zerg to deviate. This is why Diehilde is mentioning that its not the reapers themselves that destroy the zerg, but the fact that the reapers provide 100% information for any future counter, WHILE denying that much needed expo, WHILE also forcing early fighting units form the zerg who has an already shot economy and production, cuz he couldnt produce that hatchery in the first place.
anyway, all of this could be completely moot if expanding after metabolic boost is entirely viable.. which it seems like a lot of people say works.
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On April 03 2010 06:18 TSL-Lore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 04:19 Kyuki wrote:I just dont understand the complaint of having a build that is revolved around worse economy and harrass is making a Fast expand build that is heavily economically focused hard or even countered. And that it would make the MU shallow? So "10pool10gas speedlings makes 14 rax, 15 CC obsolete - that makes for a shallow matchup." Do you have any terran experience btw? 1 base terran with MULE can only do so much you know. The way it seems to work now is that since zerg has a way of beeing able to saturate two bases EXTREMLY fast due to queen mechanics, the other races either open up with ways to prolong the saturation time to catch up into midgame where the zerg exploads if not beeing tempered with, or just open up with builds that straight up will kill them quite early, i.e timing pushes, i.e punish the zerg for beeing greedy. If you could get away with this fast expand EVERY time without having to beeing forced into building units/static defense, it would be a very shallow game. Luckily it isnt And tbh Slurgis play and specially opening seemed quite weak imo and very susceptible to banelings. His army was very Marine heavy for that type of midgame push. He also controled the ZN towers, even the one on your side when you had your army just bellow it, and when he moved in on you he scanned you and got the attackers advantage of stimming and moving in, getting the first shots in which more than rarely plays a huge role in the bigger clashes. I'd like to counter by asking if you've had any experience playing Zerg? 1 base zerg generally maens 1 hatchery + 1 queen. This is much much weaker than 1 base terran. Unless you propose that its good to put a 2nd hatch in your main vs terran, which in my experience, doesn't work out very well unless you do some all in. In my opinion, terran isn't designed to need that fast expo, while zerg is. This is mostly due to the fact that hatcheries double as command center and barracks. Using a hatchery in your main base that doesn't serve as an expansion is simply not worth it. The long build time and high capital cost doesn't make it as efficient as a barracks, in terms of building fighting units. Terrans on the other hand can afford to stay on one base longer, since they have biuldings specially designed to produce just fighting units. You wouldn't build a command center and just have it sit in your main so that you could produce marauders faster. Thats not how the race works. On top of this, a 1 base terran using MULEs can out-mine a 1 base zerg in all instances, further supporting the zerg's necessity to have an expansion. the reason it makes the match up shallow is that the Terran's decision to make a reaper early doesn't actually deviate his normal and natural build order as much it forces the zerg to deviate. This is why Diehilde is mentioning that its not the reapers themselves that destroy the zerg, but the fact that the reapers provide 100% information for any future counter, WHILE denying that much needed expo, WHILE also forcing early fighting units form the zerg who has an already shot economy and production, cuz he couldnt produce that hatchery in the first place. anyway, all of this could be completely moot if expanding after metabolic boost is entirely viable.. which it seems like a lot of people say works.
Yes I have experience as Zerg and Terran. Very little toss though.
I never proposed that you should go 1-base, that is not "the safer play". The way you expand however is what is important and if you choose to do it the way you did in the games you just showed us, you're beeing greedy and open to early harass and you should get punished for it if it's possible.
That's how all MUs work in modern BW, and I dont see why that is a bad thing.
A one base Terran wont outmine a one base Zerg until they both hit midgame since zerg will double the workercount of Terran in 1 min. I mean your argument isnt really valid to this whole situation anyways since we're not comparing one base plays. That would look completely diffrent..
Anyways you're somehow saying that it doenst effect Terran as it effects zerg, and that's just horrendusly wrong. If you do another build that is just half as greedy (still beeing rather greedy compared to T - say 13 pool->hatch->gas->speed) you're all good and you even deny him all the scouting after the first reaper.
You're in a good spot, and you go into midgame with shitloads of drones because the terran cant put any preassure on you since he opened reapers which puts him waay behind on anything he want to do that doesnt involve something sneaky which is only really beeing doable if the opening harass did its damage.
I think you're overexaggerating abit and you wish your economical build would work against anything.
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On April 03 2010 07:27 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 06:18 TSL-Lore wrote:On April 03 2010 04:19 Kyuki wrote:I just dont understand the complaint of having a build that is revolved around worse economy and harrass is making a Fast expand build that is heavily economically focused hard or even countered. And that it would make the MU shallow? So "10pool10gas speedlings makes 14 rax, 15 CC obsolete - that makes for a shallow matchup." Do you have any terran experience btw? 1 base terran with MULE can only do so much you know. The way it seems to work now is that since zerg has a way of beeing able to saturate two bases EXTREMLY fast due to queen mechanics, the other races either open up with ways to prolong the saturation time to catch up into midgame where the zerg exploads if not beeing tempered with, or just open up with builds that straight up will kill them quite early, i.e timing pushes, i.e punish the zerg for beeing greedy. If you could get away with this fast expand EVERY time without having to beeing forced into building units/static defense, it would be a very shallow game. Luckily it isnt And tbh Slurgis play and specially opening seemed quite weak imo and very susceptible to banelings. His army was very Marine heavy for that type of midgame push. He also controled the ZN towers, even the one on your side when you had your army just bellow it, and when he moved in on you he scanned you and got the attackers advantage of stimming and moving in, getting the first shots in which more than rarely plays a huge role in the bigger clashes. I'd like to counter by asking if you've had any experience playing Zerg? 1 base zerg generally maens 1 hatchery + 1 queen. This is much much weaker than 1 base terran. Unless you propose that its good to put a 2nd hatch in your main vs terran, which in my experience, doesn't work out very well unless you do some all in. In my opinion, terran isn't designed to need that fast expo, while zerg is. This is mostly due to the fact that hatcheries double as command center and barracks. Using a hatchery in your main base that doesn't serve as an expansion is simply not worth it. The long build time and high capital cost doesn't make it as efficient as a barracks, in terms of building fighting units. Terrans on the other hand can afford to stay on one base longer, since they have biuldings specially designed to produce just fighting units. You wouldn't build a command center and just have it sit in your main so that you could produce marauders faster. Thats not how the race works. On top of this, a 1 base terran using MULEs can out-mine a 1 base zerg in all instances, further supporting the zerg's necessity to have an expansion. the reason it makes the match up shallow is that the Terran's decision to make a reaper early doesn't actually deviate his normal and natural build order as much it forces the zerg to deviate. This is why Diehilde is mentioning that its not the reapers themselves that destroy the zerg, but the fact that the reapers provide 100% information for any future counter, WHILE denying that much needed expo, WHILE also forcing early fighting units form the zerg who has an already shot economy and production, cuz he couldnt produce that hatchery in the first place. anyway, all of this could be completely moot if expanding after metabolic boost is entirely viable.. which it seems like a lot of people say works. Yes I have experience as Zerg and Terran. Very little toss though. I never proposed that you should go 1-base, that is not "the safer play". The way you expand however is what is important and if you choose to do it the way you did in the games you just showed us, you're beeing greedy and open to early harass and you should get punished for it if it's possible. That's how all MUs work in modern BW, and I dont see why that is a bad thing. A one base Terran wont outmine a one base Zerg until they both hit midgame since zerg will double the workercount of Terran in 1 min. I mean your argument isnt really valid to this whole situation anyways since we're not comparing one base plays. That would look completely diffrent.. Anyways you're somehow saying that it doenst effect Terran as it effects zerg, and that's just horrendusly wrong. If you do another build that is just half as greedy (still beeing rather greedy compared to T - say 13 pool->hatch->gas->speed) you're all good and you even deny him all the scouting after the first reaper. You're in a good spot, and you go into midgame with shitloads of drones because the terran cant put any preassure on you since he opened reapers which puts him waay behind on anything he want to do that doesnt involve something sneaky which is only really beeing doable if the opening harass did its damage. I think you're overexaggerating abit and you wish your economical build would work against anything.
I can see you did not watch the replays, as i DID open pool first , then hatch. I only opened hatch first on desert oasis, but on the other 2 games, i opened 14 pool first.
In almost all my games, i open pool first, and i realize hatch first is open to early game antics. The problem here is that the reaper comes at a stage where even if u opened pool first, it can still deny your expo or make your life hell fairly easily (because lings and drones are terrible vs reapers)
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before patch 6 i was going alot of fe against zerg (1rax fe) but now ive been playing some reaper openers against z today since hellion openers r pretty bad now because all z seem to be getting roaches kinda early
i think reapers r ok but ive been dying to zergs who has been massing speedlings
the most solid bo a z can do to me seems to be 14pool then get the hatch going, then gas and roach warren. it seems to me like if t hellion u go roach and tech to lair into hydra, and if they reaper u can just make lings and lingspeed like holy hell and run t over. the reapers only seem to be strong early game but as soon as z get ling speed u cant do shit, ur rax busy making reapers so now u sit with 0 defense :p
nobody is playing 14hatch anymore, also i dont understand zergs who think they r behind by making fast roach to protect against these terran rushes. we have to cut scvs while u cut drone, but the fact is that u replenish drones alot faster cause of queen. our mule give us money but not faster scv production so we r forced to add production facilities and tech when we really want to be getting scvs
but i dunno, i only played about 5 tvzs of reaper opener and watched about 5 tvzs of lucifron doing this. ill see if ill play more tomorrow xd i still get the impression that zerg is the easiest race to defend rushes with. the race which requires least builds or adapters. i feel like z can have a gameplan in zvt, a few adapters but in the end can just solidly outmacro and overrun t as soon as he move out for a timing attack in later game
also on a sidenote 1base zerg pure hydra pump outmacro anything terran does on 1base macro with mule.
dont feel bad that u need to delay ur expo against rushes or is playing against him on equal bases
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8 rax, which is counter to fast expansion. Don't fast expand when a Terran player is going 8 rax, it's basic knowledge. This topic should be closed.
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I think that the people saying that the reaper rush is overpowered are not thinking outside the frame of this one build order (14pool FE). It is very easy to get a pool sooner, to build one crawler or roll out a queen (all of which counter reapers). But just as easily, you can use a different BO like 10 pool and avoid the issue altogether.
When you scout an early rax with tech lab, it's not rocket surgery () that he's going reapers. If you don't build to counter, who is to blame? You can still be greedy, just not as much as 14pool FE.
It seems like you guys simply found a build or two that gave you a higher win ratio and rode them to #1 plat. I think a little innovation and strategic thought would go a long way towards countering this "overpowered" strategy.
Edit: completely agree with Morrow. When I play T, zerg is the last race I want to reaper rush. Protoss is the only race that should be concerned about this strategy because if they don't have stalkers on their way, then gg cause zealots are going to get kited all day long. Terran can at least not be kited and zerg has a queen right in the mineral line.
Very confused about what it means to be high/top platinum zerg if a reaper rush gets this much attention from ZERG of all races.
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Do you terrans usually wait for speed or rather just rally your first couple? i personally like getting 3-5 with speed while massing maraudors and expanding, keeping the reapers alive is crucial or he will just move out and pwn your FE.
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in sc2 fast expo with zerg is not safe and shouldnt be the norm
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On April 03 2010 08:06 TSL-Lore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 07:27 Kyuki wrote:On April 03 2010 06:18 TSL-Lore wrote:On April 03 2010 04:19 Kyuki wrote:I just dont understand the complaint of having a build that is revolved around worse economy and harrass is making a Fast expand build that is heavily economically focused hard or even countered. And that it would make the MU shallow? So "10pool10gas speedlings makes 14 rax, 15 CC obsolete - that makes for a shallow matchup." Do you have any terran experience btw? 1 base terran with MULE can only do so much you know. The way it seems to work now is that since zerg has a way of beeing able to saturate two bases EXTREMLY fast due to queen mechanics, the other races either open up with ways to prolong the saturation time to catch up into midgame where the zerg exploads if not beeing tempered with, or just open up with builds that straight up will kill them quite early, i.e timing pushes, i.e punish the zerg for beeing greedy. If you could get away with this fast expand EVERY time without having to beeing forced into building units/static defense, it would be a very shallow game. Luckily it isnt And tbh Slurgis play and specially opening seemed quite weak imo and very susceptible to banelings. His army was very Marine heavy for that type of midgame push. He also controled the ZN towers, even the one on your side when you had your army just bellow it, and when he moved in on you he scanned you and got the attackers advantage of stimming and moving in, getting the first shots in which more than rarely plays a huge role in the bigger clashes. I'd like to counter by asking if you've had any experience playing Zerg? 1 base zerg generally maens 1 hatchery + 1 queen. This is much much weaker than 1 base terran. Unless you propose that its good to put a 2nd hatch in your main vs terran, which in my experience, doesn't work out very well unless you do some all in. In my opinion, terran isn't designed to need that fast expo, while zerg is. This is mostly due to the fact that hatcheries double as command center and barracks. Using a hatchery in your main base that doesn't serve as an expansion is simply not worth it. The long build time and high capital cost doesn't make it as efficient as a barracks, in terms of building fighting units. Terrans on the other hand can afford to stay on one base longer, since they have biuldings specially designed to produce just fighting units. You wouldn't build a command center and just have it sit in your main so that you could produce marauders faster. Thats not how the race works. On top of this, a 1 base terran using MULEs can out-mine a 1 base zerg in all instances, further supporting the zerg's necessity to have an expansion. the reason it makes the match up shallow is that the Terran's decision to make a reaper early doesn't actually deviate his normal and natural build order as much it forces the zerg to deviate. This is why Diehilde is mentioning that its not the reapers themselves that destroy the zerg, but the fact that the reapers provide 100% information for any future counter, WHILE denying that much needed expo, WHILE also forcing early fighting units form the zerg who has an already shot economy and production, cuz he couldnt produce that hatchery in the first place. anyway, all of this could be completely moot if expanding after metabolic boost is entirely viable.. which it seems like a lot of people say works. Yes I have experience as Zerg and Terran. Very little toss though. I never proposed that you should go 1-base, that is not "the safer play". The way you expand however is what is important and if you choose to do it the way you did in the games you just showed us, you're beeing greedy and open to early harass and you should get punished for it if it's possible. That's how all MUs work in modern BW, and I dont see why that is a bad thing. A one base Terran wont outmine a one base Zerg until they both hit midgame since zerg will double the workercount of Terran in 1 min. I mean your argument isnt really valid to this whole situation anyways since we're not comparing one base plays. That would look completely diffrent.. Anyways you're somehow saying that it doenst effect Terran as it effects zerg, and that's just horrendusly wrong. If you do another build that is just half as greedy (still beeing rather greedy compared to T - say 13 pool->hatch->gas->speed) you're all good and you even deny him all the scouting after the first reaper. You're in a good spot, and you go into midgame with shitloads of drones because the terran cant put any preassure on you since he opened reapers which puts him waay behind on anything he want to do that doesnt involve something sneaky which is only really beeing doable if the opening harass did its damage. I think you're overexaggerating abit and you wish your economical build would work against anything. I can see you did not watch the replays, as i DID open pool first , then hatch. I only opened hatch first on desert oasis, but on the other 2 games, i opened 14 pool first. In almost all my games, i open pool first, and i realize hatch first is open to early game antics. The problem here is that the reaper comes at a stage where even if u opened pool first, it can still deny your expo or make your life hell fairly easily (because lings and drones are terrible vs reapers)
Hehe, I did watch your replays and you just dont seem to understand what I'm trying to tell you regardless.
In the game vs Fenix on Kulas your pool was done when his reaper was at 2/3s production, and right after you lay down your natural hatch you make two drones and one extractor delaying your queen and your lings <- this is where you lost the game.
That's semi OK since you hadnt scouted him yet and you didnt know how to deal with the fast reaper, but what happens later is that when you start your queen, you decide to make a OL before you start your first set of lings and here the drones you invested in instead of saving larvae for a few early lings/queen hurts you really bad and pretty much ends the game since you have nothing to defend with.
Even with a build like what you did on Kulas I think you could've put up a better fight if you played more safe and actually make use of the pool you made at 14.
Honestly, if you dont intend to use a structure until X, then dont even make it, the ordering of how you make things is very important in the early game.
Now imagine a 13 pool where you start your queen right as the pool finnishes and make two sets of lings just for starters before you make your gas and THEN go back to droning if needed.
The game on Desert you 15 hatch and his reapers isnt that fast anyways. It's a pretty "standard" (supply before rax) reaper which is better economical and will lead to stronger whatever later on.
Your problem on this map was your queen defense imo, you somehow wandered off from your mineral line with both your queens and you had like 12 drones killed because of it. Your nat hatch queen was on patrol above the hatch as far from the mineral line as possible (in proximity of the hatch) and your main queen was wandering up towards your chamber and after that you put it on patrol up between your left sides minerals and up to the chamber.
This makes absolutly no sense since you're most vulnerable down where the reaper can just jump up to your mineral straight away, and if he chooses to, he can go for the gas drones and your queen will have a hard time to catch him.
In that game you could've probably just made a more even game if you hadnt had those major issues with queen positioning.
In the game vs Slurgi your queen came out much better and the first reaper did pretty much nothing for it's earlyness and its cost.
Again you do some strange stuff with queen patroling and after your first 4 lings you just stop making them until your speed is done which is a tad confusing, but I guess understandable if you didnt expect any more reapers. Making two more sets to be safe could've saved you a few more drones, but more importantly staying on one base for a little longer would both improve your dronecount (early) and your defensive position since it's much harder to attack one base with queen+lings than 2, and if the early reapers is repelled it's a quite heavy investment down the drain for the Terran and you can continue into midgame and your dronepump -> mass hydra or whatever.
What I think lost you the game though was that slurgi killed a overlord in the middle of the map and then the one in his base just before he hit your front for the first time and it took you a good one minute or so to be back on positive food (you did manage to squeeze out 10 extra lings before he killed your second overlord). Your lings that you tried to backstab with then got cought out of position and it went to hell from there.
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Again you seem to think that a pool at 14 is early and should defend against anything. It isnt. It's focused on economy, but can still repell almost anything - i.e VERY strong opener. Maybe on some maps opening with 13 pool is more safe and you should maybe experiment with it.
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EPT
