EPTThe new Reaper Terrans... how? - Page 4
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HTX
Germany265 Posts
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
On April 03 2010 01:55 cartoon]x wrote: you guys aren't addressing the reaper bunker rush problem though. it's actually a very strong build i think it essentially forces zerg to not FE in any form at all. You need to have a decent early game army before expanding | ||
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fevax
Turkey143 Posts
On April 02 2010 13:16 TSL-Lore wrote: Hmm.. I just fought a couple Terrans in a row. I fought Fenix twice and another Terran named Slurgi (in the replays included below) where they all opened with a super fast reaper. They would continue with a few more Reapers, denying my expo or just harassing my drones. I'm trying to figure out.. what can a Zerg do against this? It seems I have to get ling speed or roaches to deal with it, which delays my ability to fend off whatever they come with next (in Fenix's case, quick Banshees. In Slurgi's case, simply a strong MMM attack) Since they had the reapers in the beginning, they can essentially always see what the Zerg is going to do in response, and simply counter accordingly. I was Rank 1 in my Division (platinum division 6) for ever since the reset. After these 3 losses, I got bumped down to 3rd, and I'm afraid to play until I've figured out how to stop it. It seems that the Reaper opening doesn't really cost the Terran anything, as a Terran is always gonna want to have a rax with a tech lab attached. In the case of other types of harass oriented openings, the Terran usually has to sacrifice something. For example, early Vikings means virtually no ground army. Early Hellions usually means not too many Barracks. This is true for other races as well. Early DTs means low gateway count. Early Phoenix means no ground army. But the reaper comes so early, and with such low opportunity cost, that it seems very very difficult to exploit any weakness. I've tried a few things.. extra queen, early ling speed, early roaches. Even if I fend off the reaper harass without too many losses, I feel really behind for the rest of the game (especially in Slurgi's game, where he just A-moved in later with a Nuke to boot) Have any of you zergs had any success against these new Reaper Terrans? Replays posted below: http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/620 - Reaper opening with banshee follow up http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/621 - Reaper opening with Hellion follow up http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/622 - Reaper opening with expo-MMM follow up I just watched the first game and the first thing i noticed is, after you made the hatchery, you spent your minerals on extractor and drones. Instead you should save your money till pool finishes and make a queen + 1-2 lings. and maybe a third by freeing 1 supply by making an extractor. and only after these you should ovie/drone etc. | ||
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Twe3k
89 Posts
On April 03 2010 01:35 TSL-Lore wrote: you should be more aggressive with your reapers, as they out-range and out-maneuver roaches really easily. Don't wait til 2 reapers, just send your first one to harass drones/see what hes doing/deny FE. Watch the replays I'll keep that in mind. perhaps I'm underestimating the strength of my own reapers.I always think that they are exceptionally week. I've gotten my reapers killed by a drone attack and bad micro a few times aswell, that has detoured me a bit. however I'mma have to check out your replay I can see how a fast reaper would completely Dominate a Fast FE, and give you some troubles pre-queen. Just remember Reapers eat those lings for breakfast. and with out like double the number of reapers in lings they don't stand a good chance. | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
On April 03 2010 02:30 Twe3k wrote: I'll keep that in mind. perhaps I'm underestimating the strength of my own reapers.I always think that they are exceptionally week. I've gotten my reapers killed by a drone attack and bad micro a few times aswell, that has detoured me a bit. however I'mma have to check out your replay I can see how a fast reaper would completely Dominate a Fast FE, and give you some troubles pre-queen. Just remember Reapers eat those lings for breakfast. and with out like double the number of reapers in lings they don't stand a good chance. yeah, definitely, in response to your post and the one before it. Even if i were to not spend money on extractor and drone, and instead save for a few lings, its almost like i "pre-killed" my own drones to make those lings. The lings arent going to kill the Reapers, so by making the lings that early, before ling speed, i've essentially already made his reapers semi-worth it. Lings arent good against reapers at all without speed. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
You could also consider building a crawler in your main and walking into your expo so as it comes up you'll have a crawler right there. Not sure how timings work of course. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
Gotta test this strat when i come back to dorm after Easter. My pc at home is crappy ;< | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
Queen + lings + micro = solved. Zerg have a much easier time with this than Protoss do atm. | ||
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
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Twe3k
89 Posts
On April 03 2010 03:27 cartoon]x wrote: tweak, you probably are getting your reapers late because you're not using the early gas / barracks build. normally I rock 10 SD 11 Barracks 12 Gas 14 Barracks 15 gas 16OC, SD ASAP after OC! Tech labs ASAP and reapers HO!!!! normally the first two reapers spawn at the same time. than i go. And its not that I'm slow I just don't like to mess with Queens or Roaches I'd rather have my reapers alive and well defending behind some SD's, they'll die when I get banshee's anyway. and as long as I've peaked around and seen their tech tree I know what to expect. I would say to go Roaches, expand, and Go Muta. They will see your early Roach tech and hard counter, and you'll walk on in and laugh at their lack of Marines. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
Louder, do you mean to make 2 queens and FE as normal? FE before or after metabolic boost? | ||
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
Example 1 Example 2 | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
I cant help but feel like im behind though... 1 base terran with MULE is so strong | ||
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Fallen
Canada192 Posts
Standard reaper rush is 10 rax 10 ref 11 supply. You get reaper like a minute before the normal build and thats what its all about. You then proceed to bunker his choke or near his creep. You're clearly never getting a FE up against a 10 rax build. The 10 rax reaper build is much superior than the normal economic build most terran does. Its clearly a very strong opening against zerg. I think it will become the standard opening as it force the zerg into roaches and it makes fast expansion an auto-loss. You'll never keep up with lings if he gets bunkers up. You snipe a few drones and suddenly the zerg is WAY behind because he cant keep making drones and defense against reapers. In my build, I dont get the quick OC, I rather get 2 extra barracks then upgrade OC. I get a lot more reapers that way and I can put a lot of pressure on the zerg. It's also safe if he went real fast roaches as I can make 3 marauders to defend. Variations of this build could be quick OC into fast expand and then add more barracks. I'd suspect this opening might be the safest. | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
On April 03 2010 04:07 Fallen wrote: Variations of this build could be quick OC into fast expand and then add more barracks. I'd suspect this opening might be the safest. this is what Slurgi did in my 3rd game. It felt like he had no openings, and was ahead of me the entire game =[ | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
So "10pool10gas speedlings makes 14 rax, 15 CC obsolete - that makes for a shallow matchup." Do you have any terran experience btw? 1 base terran with MULE can only do so much you know. The way it seems to work now is that since zerg has a way of beeing able to saturate two bases EXTREMLY fast due to queen mechanics, the other races either open up with ways to prolong the saturation time to catch up into midgame where the zerg exploads if not beeing tempered with, or just open up with builds that straight up will kill them quite early, i.e timing pushes, i.e punish the zerg for beeing greedy. If you could get away with this fast expand EVERY time without having to beeing forced into building units/static defense, it would be a very shallow game. Luckily it isnt  And tbh Slurgis play and specially opening seemed quite weak imo and very susceptible to banelings. His army was very Marine heavy for that type of midgame push. He also controled the ZN towers, even the one on your side when you had your army just bellow it, and when he moved in on you he scanned you and got the attackers advantage of stimming and moving in, getting the first shots in which more than rarely plays a huge role in the bigger clashes. | ||
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zazen
Brazil695 Posts
Right now in this game there are 2 big reasons you shouldn't just assume it's "safe" to do something like 14 hatch opening against T: 1- reaper harass 2- bunker rush the "safest" map for early expo is probably Blistering Sands and maybe Scrap Station. Rush distance is longer on Desert Oasis but the distance from your natural expo to your main is also long and the T can usually just bypass your expo direct into your main (bad), not to mention this is a great map for Reapers. Once again, worth mentioning that Kulas Ravine is the most overpowered map for T in the game and just play safest as possible every game there and expect a very early T expand on his protected natural (which is lame and hard to counter). | ||
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