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Hmm.. I just fought a couple Terrans in a row. I fought Fenix twice and another Terran named Slurgi (in the replays included below) where they all opened with a super fast reaper. They would continue with a few more Reapers, denying my expo or just harassing my drones.
I'm trying to figure out.. what can a Zerg do against this? It seems I have to get ling speed or roaches to deal with it, which delays my ability to fend off whatever they come with next (in Fenix's case, quick Banshees. In Slurgi's case, simply a strong MMM attack) Since they had the reapers in the beginning, they can essentially always see what the Zerg is going to do in response, and simply counter accordingly.
I was Rank 1 in my Division (platinum division 6) for ever since the reset. After these 3 losses, I got bumped down to 3rd, and I'm afraid to play until I've figured out how to stop it.
It seems that the Reaper opening doesn't really cost the Terran anything, as a Terran is always gonna want to have a rax with a tech lab attached. In the case of other types of harass oriented openings, the Terran usually has to sacrifice something. For example, early Vikings means virtually no ground army. Early Hellions usually means not too many Barracks. This is true for other races as well. Early DTs means low gateway count. Early Phoenix means no ground army. But the reaper comes so early, and with such low opportunity cost, that it seems very very difficult to exploit any weakness.
I've tried a few things.. extra queen, early ling speed, early roaches. Even if I fend off the reaper harass without too many losses, I feel really behind for the rest of the game (especially in Slurgi's game, where he just A-moved in later with a Nuke to boot)
Have any of you zergs had any success against these new Reaper Terrans?
Replays posted below:
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/620 - Reaper opening with banshee follow up
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/621 - Reaper opening with Hellion follow up
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/622 - Reaper opening with expo-MMM follow up
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I remember that Terrans are getting smarter by figuring out that Roaches > Reapers. So they open up Reapers to deal with it, and then Terran fast techs to Banshees/Marauders and then surprises you.
I think that proper response is to figure out the mind of the Terran before approaching this problem further. There's really no "specified" way to fight against Reapers because I feel like Terran has a lot of ways to change out of it. For me, I just open up one reaper, check to see if Zerg goes Roaches, then opt for banshee or Vikings to throw the Zerg off.
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well. I quit zerg in 1v1 this patch, theres just not much you can do vs Terran.. least in PvT, you have some option and some units that actually do damage to marauders.
Im glad I havent had to face this yet, the whole hellion harass to MMM/thor was a pain in the ass already.
My theorycrafting guess would be going 3-4 roachs to hold off any harassment (much like you would vs hellions), then do your normal thing.. in this case, maybe some counter baneling ovie drops to return some dmg, into standard play.
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I'm nowhere near #1 in platinum but I'm surprised you have so much trouble with it. In all the high platinum games/streams I've seen, and in my personal experience, reapers are fairly ineffective against zerg. The queen can easily protect your main, and reapers move slower than lings on creep.
Getting the expo harassed is alittle less nice but just open with ling speed before expanding then? Or make a second queen at your main and move the other one to your nat. Reapers are really made of paper. Even 5 of those won't kill a queen
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Thanks for the feedback, but did u guys watch the replays? The reaper can deny my expo, and comes much earlier than i can get roaches. And if i were to get roaches THAT early, i'd need to have map hack or something because there's no way to know if the Terran is for sure gonna do that or not.
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I believe reapers have no armor so the new spines should 2 shot them. Correct me if I'm wrong there. You should really be drone scouting on 4 player maps. You should notice his faster rax timing and be able to defend with minimal losses.
From there I suggest 3-4 roach tops for holding off reapers if you feel scared. That's what works well vs me.
Honestly I don't find reaper openings exceptionally strong, I prefer hellions cause they're sturdier and scale much better with numbers. If deflected well, reaper openings do put you behind in economy substantially, and forcecount, cause you weren't making other things with that barracks.
This is from the perspective of a primarily terran player, so take it with a grain of salt if you want.
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handle them like you would a fast hellion is my first reaction.
i'll watch the replays and give a second opinion.
edit1: thank you for using that sc2rc. whoever's site it is, i love them for it. it's much cooler and nicer than megaupload, etc. i hate those sites.
edit2: watched the first game. nothing u could've done about that bunker/reaper at your expansion. when that happens, give up on the expo. you don't have to early expo to beat a terran. on that map specifically, use those first few roaches to get those rocks down and expand on the high ground instead.
it's hard to say what you "should have done" because in reality, he was scouting you and would've changed his strat as well. with that in mind, if you don't tech to lair when terran is trying to pull those antics you severely limit yourself in options. i believe that was your biggest failure.
edit3: the 3rd game just made me think he's a much better player than you are. your crisis management was scary bad(sorry  ) i don't think this start is anything to worry about, it looks very weak. his eco is shot. next time just put your queens next to the ridge/works and not on the opposite side of the only possible place his reapers would be headed.
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On April 02 2010 13:34 Floophead_III wrote:
I believe reapers have no armor so the new spines should 2 shot them. Correct me if I'm wrong there. You should really be drone scouting on 4 player maps. You should notice his faster rax timing and be able to defend with minimal losses.
From there I suggest 3-4 roach tops for holding off reapers if you feel scared. That's what works well vs me.
Honestly I don't find reaper openings exceptionally strong, I prefer hellions cause they're sturdier and scale much better with numbers. If deflected well, reaper openings do put you behind in economy substantially, and forcecount, cause you weren't making other things with that barracks.
This is from the perspective of a primarily terran player, so take it with a grain of salt if you want.
yes , but putting up a spine that early definitely hurt me more than getting a reaper that early for a terran (gets to scout, has a rax with tech lab, can still deny expos). Also, reapers have a range of 5 and the spine has a range of 7.. theres no way your spine can cover your entire mineral field.
I just mostly have a problem with the reaper's lack of opportunity cost (as opposed to something like vultures from scbw.. takes a lot more opportunity cost... less rax, less army strength).
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On April 02 2010 13:35 danl9rm wrote:
handle them like you would a fast hellion is my first reaction.
i'll watch the replays and give a second opinion.
edit1: thank you for using that sc2rc. whoever's site it is, i love them for it. it's much cooler and nicer than megaupload, etc. i hate those sites.
it comes WAY faster than the hellions though..
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As a T, I can tell you that fast reapers require fast rax and fast refinery. This means that a specialized build comes in the order of
Rax-refinery-depot or
refinery-rax-depot
So, there's a LOT of SCV cutting time. When I compare it to a protoss for example, even if I take down 4~5 probes, it's normal for the T to be either even or a bit lower in worker count (of course P has chrono boost which naturally makes it higher)
Fighting Reapers off is actually not that difficult. You can fight off reapers easily it with either speedlings or roaches. If there's only a few, you can have couple lings and workers chase the reapers individually so that the T can't skimp on micro. Also, another important thing to do is to make sure you patrol/stand guard the likely areas for the reaper to jump onto your base with lings. Reapers have a delay in which they are vulnerable during cliff jumping.
Of course, I'm talking so far about early 1~2 reapers. If the T masses reapers, that's a different story.
I was just watching Garimto play against mass reapers. As a Z, he was fighting a T on Kulas Ravine. He made about 14 zerglings and played very defensively with the queen. Even though the T had ~6 speeded reapers, garimto had good micro. It was much like SCBW MM vs Muta micro, where the reapers were like muta and zergling were reacting like MM. The important point was for the Z to never lose lings. Just threaten to surround, but when he runs away to a strategic position (cliff etc) run back. And he teched to roaches while he was microing against it.
Another thing he did was after he had a decent amount of roaches, he rushed the T with the force he massed. He lost, but only because the T opted to turn his FEing natural into a planetary fortress.
short summary: Reapers can be prevented from doing a lot of damage by occupying them with ling threat. Once roaches come out, reaper threat significantly decreases. You don't have to get super early roaches if you can threaten the reapers into not being able to get free hits on drones. The terrain plays a big role, so watch out for cliffs. Remember that reapers are very gas intensive and the more reapers a T gets, the less gas he has to tech. Scout whether he is FEing, MMing, or teching, and act appropriately (if MM, stay defensive; if FE/tech, show aggro)
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Queen doesn't answer reapers look at the goddamn posts.
I've had the same done to me and I don't know how to answer it either, with the exception of simply delaying your expo, which puts you behind if you are playing vs a standard build. Only a few reapers are built and they are incredibly fast off a rax before depot, and basically they start hitting your expo hatch before even lings could deal with them, and when they finally come to deal with teh reapers they can be microed well enough to fend them off. Since it's at the expo queen doesn't do shit, especially on a map like desert oasis. Every game it's happened I've ended up canceling my hatch before the expo was done, teching to roaches asap and simply being behind. They don't even need a bunker but they can bring an scv along if you do decide to build a lot of lings to try to kill the reapers anyways, which happened to me once...
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Watched the first replay. Gotta watch for that bunker rush, lol. Keep track of his scv, it should never disappear like that. In any case, you shouldn't have stopped the hatch I feel. I think if you brought your queen and made a crawler or two you could've been fine. Honestly, I didn't even know reapers could go in bunkers. I thought they couldn't. When you placed it again you still weren't that bad off, but you cancelled it again when I think you might've been able to hold it. It definitely was close though, and if you were smart with your roach placement it would've gone up fine. Spread them out, don't clump them.
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lol@ people comp0laing about reapers
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On April 02 2010 13:53 Floophead_III wrote:
Watched the first replay. Gotta watch for that bunker rush, lol. Keep track of his scv, it should never disappear like that. In any case, you shouldn't have stopped the hatch I feel. I think if you brought your queen and made a crawler or two you could've been fine. Honestly, I didn't even know reapers could go in bunkers. I thought they couldn't. When you placed it again you still weren't that bad off, but you cancelled it again when I think you might've been able to hold it. It definitely was close though, and if you were smart with your roach placement it would've gone up fine. Spread them out, don't clump them.
c'mon man, not to attack, but what league are you in?
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scout the barracks..? i mean seriously even if he builds a marine instead of a reaper, the overlord will be able to out"run" it. If u see he did build a reaper set up a crawler. That always worked for me.
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Platinum, almost 70% win ratio.
edit: actually that last game brought me to exactly 70% =P
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Your queen can easily solo 1-2 reapers, get speed zerglings or a couple roaches...
If hes rushing reapers he will have pretty much zero units... so you can get early zergling speed and banelings break for GG. If hes lucky he will have 2 hellions out, which you should be able to beat with speedling micro. At that point its pretty much gg.
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On April 02 2010 13:21 Skyze wrote:
well. I quit zerg in 1v1 this patch, theres just not much you can do vs Terran.. least in PvT, you have some option and some units that actually do damage to marauders.
Im glad I havent had to face this yet, the whole hellion harass to MMM/thor was a pain in the ass already.
My theorycrafting guess would be going 3-4 roachs to hold off any harassment (much like you would vs hellions), then do your normal thing.. in this case, maybe some counter baneling ovie drops to return some dmg, into standard play.
As I recall the popular opinion is that its impossible for Terran to win Zerg unless Z messes up.
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On April 02 2010 14:04 SoFFacet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 13:21 Skyze wrote:
well. I quit zerg in 1v1 this patch, theres just not much you can do vs Terran.. least in PvT, you have some option and some units that actually do damage to marauders.
Im glad I havent had to face this yet, the whole hellion harass to MMM/thor was a pain in the ass already.
My theorycrafting guess would be going 3-4 roachs to hold off any harassment (much like you would vs hellions), then do your normal thing.. in this case, maybe some counter baneling ovie drops to return some dmg, into standard play. As I recall the popular opinion is that its impossible for Terran to win Zerg unless Z messes up.
just ignore him, hes complaining like this in every thread.
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put a sunken in each mineral line.. build 6-10 lings. position queen at any weekspots. put roaches and lings on your cliff so you can attack and kill at least 1 reaper before he gets to your drones/buildings.
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Just watched all 3 replays. I feel like the first game against Fenix was just very well executed on his part. I don't have much to suggest because he played very well.
Game 2 with Fenix goes reapers to hellions. One spine crawler at both bases with your queen would have fended off all that harass.
Game 3 is where it gets really interesting because you build 2 queens and fight off the initial reapers; he transitions into MMM. By the first attack, T had spent more than twice as much as you on his army. I'm surprised you survived that attack. I also feel that you should have stuck to hydras instead of making a handful of banelings.
In all the games, you scout the early rax with tech lab. You know exactly what to expect but you don't counter. This is particularly evident in game one where you continue to expo at your nat instead of pumping units/defense after scouting the rax.
My advice:
- When you scout an early rax with tech lab, build a few extra units or defense.
- After you survive the initial harass with minimal losses because you scouted it, make sure to scout his base to see what's going on. Going reaper heavy usually means that there will be very few marines, if any, to shoot down your overlords. Even if there are marines, you'll be able to see if he's got 3 more raxes or if there's a starport going up or a couple factories with reactors.
- You don't NEED to expand right away every single game. This isn't sc1.
- Invest in your army. It's my opinion that expo + tech is a recipe for disaster (see game 2 on desert oasis). You sacrifice and risk so much to rush mutas while a terran player can just plop down two turrets and pump some marines or vikings. The days of not building more than 6 lings for 10 minutes are gone.
As to your comment about reaper opening not costing anything, consider this:
The terran is way behind on SCV count.
The reapers are expensive (50/50) and die very easily. If they don't kill plenty of workers, the terran is behind.
They take 40 seconds to build and are more or less useless in an army confrontation. Consider yourself lucky that it's 5 minutes in to the game and he's building his first marauder instead of already having 5-7 MMs.
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Game 1 you just got punished for being greedy and expanding so fast.
Game 3 the T gained very little if anything for those reapers.
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Those were some pretty neat games. zerg FE seems like a complete build order loss against fast reaper o_O
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learn to play 1 base zerg
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On April 02 2010 14:53 AllFear wrote:
learn to play 1 base zerg
if thats really the answer then i'd say there's something wrong with this game right now. 1 base MULE > 1 base zer
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1 base zerg is absolute garbage. Any time a zerg 1 bases I know I've already won. I think you might want to consider roach warren before queen in your build. That's also ugly but it might give you more control early. I know 1 reaper can't kill a hatch while it's building, so you aren't totally screwed if he's wailing on it for a while. I wish transfusion was more viable (queens should start with 50 energy). It might help keep your hatch up if it wasn't so stupid energy expensive. They need to rework that.
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thanks for all the feedback guys. From waht i'm gathering, i think this is the most valuable stuff:
when you scout a fast tech lab, invest less in tech and more in some defense.
Keep a queen at each min line and possibly a spine crawler (although i kind of have doubts about the spine)
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I've also had some trouble with this build. Something that helped was getting a faster pool (11 or 12 pool instead of 13) to get a faster queen and lings. I still feel like I'm always behind from this opening though...
What fenix did looked like a bitch to stop though. I don't know how to stop that..
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If he goes Reapers you are either going to lose a few drones or have your expo cancelled if you went 14 hatch. I think Zerg has to just accept that and make a bunch of zerglings to fight them off and chase them around. You are getting speedling/baneling versus terran anyways so I don't think its too big a change, just a big annoyance at the start.
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On April 02 2010 13:16 TSL-Lore wrote:Hmm.. I just fought a couple Terrans in a row. I fought Fenix twice and another Terran named Slurgi (in the replays included below) where they all opened with a super fast reaper. They would continue with a few more Reapers, denying my expo or just harassing my drones. I'm trying to figure out.. what can a Zerg do against this? It seems I have to get ling speed or roaches to deal with it, which delays my ability to fend off whatever they come with next (in Fenix's case, quick Banshees. In Slurgi's case, simply a strong MMM attack) Since they had the reapers in the beginning, they can essentially always see what the Zerg is going to do in response, and simply counter accordingly. I was Rank 1 in my Division (platinum division 6) for ever since the reset. After these 3 losses, I got bumped down to 3rd, and I'm afraid to play until I've figured out how to stop it. It seems that the Reaper opening doesn't really cost the Terran anything, as a Terran is always gonna want to have a rax with a tech lab attached. In the case of other types of harass oriented openings, the Terran usually has to sacrifice something. For example, early Vikings means virtually no ground army. Early Hellions usually means not too many Barracks. This is true for other races as well. Early DTs means low gateway count. Early Phoenix means no ground army. But the reaper comes so early, and with such low opportunity cost, that it seems very very difficult to exploit any weakness. I've tried a few things.. extra queen, early ling speed, early roaches. Even if I fend off the reaper harass without too many losses, I feel really behind for the rest of the game (especially in Slurgi's game, where he just A-moved in later with a Nuke to boot) Have any of you zergs had any success against these new Reaper Terrans? Replays posted below: http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/620 - Reaper opening with banshee follow up http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/621 - Reaper opening with Hellion follow up http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/622 - Reaper opening with expo-MMM follow up
Haha, I use reapers vs zerg. In fact, I just won a tourney finals with that.
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I was doing almost the exact same reaper rush Fenix did, and the only times it got beat was when the zerg massed too many speedlings for 1rax reapers to work and forced hellion tech or be overrun by bling/zling.
The zerg then proceeded to get mutas, which match the reaper's mobility and allowed him to expand
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On April 02 2010 15:32 imBLIND wrote:
I was doing almost the exact same reaper rush Fenix did, and the only times it got beat was when the zerg massed too many speedlings for 1rax reapers to work and forced hellion tech or be overrun by bling/zling.
The zerg then proceeded to get mutas, which match the reaper's mobility and allowed him to expand
i would be sad if something as simple as a reaper rush, which can be decided within the first 3 minutes of the game, FORCES the zerg to do something like this in response. Makes for a shallow match up.
so that zerg did 1 base right?
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On April 02 2010 15:37 TSL-Lore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 15:32 imBLIND wrote:
I was doing almost the exact same reaper rush Fenix did, and the only times it got beat was when the zerg massed too many speedlings for 1rax reapers to work and forced hellion tech or be overrun by bling/zling.
The zerg then proceeded to get mutas, which match the reaper's mobility and allowed him to expand i would be sad if something as simple as a reaper rush, which can be decided within the first 3 minutes of the game, FORCES the zerg to do something like this in response. Makes for a shallow match up. so that zerg did 1 base right?
yea he did 1 base baneling/zergling into mutas and then double expanded. I had to get hellions for the lings and opted for thors instead of rines. I think the MM would've been a better idea, but then I would've needed at least 2 raxes and a reactor to match the muta production, while getting hellions, all off one base.
I think 2base baneling/zergling might work if u get about 12 speedlings before your expansion
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Will grabbing an extra queen help?
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On April 02 2010 15:42 imBLIND wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 15:37 TSL-Lore wrote:On April 02 2010 15:32 imBLIND wrote:
I was doing almost the exact same reaper rush Fenix did, and the only times it got beat was when the zerg massed too many speedlings for 1rax reapers to work and forced hellion tech or be overrun by bling/zling.
The zerg then proceeded to get mutas, which match the reaper's mobility and allowed him to expand i would be sad if something as simple as a reaper rush, which can be decided within the first 3 minutes of the game, FORCES the zerg to do something like this in response. Makes for a shallow match up. so that zerg did 1 base right? yea he did 1 base baneling/zergling into mutas and then double expanded. I had to get hellions for the lings and opted for thors instead of rines. I think the MM would've been a better idea, but then I would've needed at least 2 raxes and a reactor to match the muta production, while getting hellions, all off one base. I think 2base baneling/zergling might work if u get about 12 speedlings before your expansion
alright thx for the info..
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i'm both a z and t player #1 plat in my div and I can't understand why you'd complain about being forced to get ling speed. speedlings and banelings rape every terran unit that comes out from the barracks. All he's doing is cutting scvs and building long build time reapers that die against speedlings with an upgrade you should be researching anyway. there's no reason to ever build roaches! you're just inviting him to mass his best unit, marauders. i'd even rather use speedlings vs helions than roaches.
Anyway, here's what you do against someone that opens fast reaper: sit in your base massing drones while fending them off with a queen and 1 or 2 pairs of zerglings. wait for ling speed to finish; this'll make your base unharassable now. run to his entrance and morph into banelings; boom, instant GG. someone that opens fast reaper is almost assured to have a supply depot wall, and going fast reaper means he won't have enough marauders or marines to stop you from running amok in his base. if he tries to fast tech to either helions or banshees, he won't have enough out to stop you.
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get ling move speed with your first or second 100's gas, use queens, and make sure you build a spine crawler in each hatchery line. don't let him bunker up by any means, bunkers + reapers are very brutal.
countering with Roach is bad decision making, he'll be ready to pump out marauders and profit on your already weakened econ... Very fast hydras or mutas are both much better options.
Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine are hands down the best maps for Reaper harass, so be ready. I usually exp only on 20/21 on these maps.
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I've gotten owned by this kind of build multiple times yesterday and also lost my #1 because of it.
What i now do is, pool and gas at 14, research speed asap, and expand around 20 supply once i have a few lings and the speed upgrade is being researched.
I dont think there is any map where you can go hatch before pool, as this build pretty much default looses against early reapers.
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idk, i usually open 14pool lingspeed so i rarely fall to rushes.
if he's going reapers u should be abel to repell, counterattack and rip him apart. Or get banelings to bust the front, if it seems hard to do so just exp and use your units to deny any sort of harassment
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I almost open with fast reapers every game against zerg because I usually always get all the early game scouting info I need, the biggest one being a baneling break-in. If terran opens with reapers, a queen at each base should be enough. If he's building way too much, drop a sunken at your mineral line and you should be fine.
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By watching the replays it seems you play pretty greedy, or standard if you wanna call it, but if you have trouble vs this harrass you are super vulnurable to hellion harass aswell. I'd lay down a roachwarren before I build my second queen and make 4 roaches and then proceed with whatever tech you want. There is nothing reapers can do vs 2 roaches per hatch and you get them out fairly early. The roaches are a better option then static defenses early on since they serve a purpose in battles outside your base aswell.
The first reaper doesnt even seem to be a real trouble for you anyway except on Kulas where it denied your expansion all together, but maybe just a few more lings instead of drones early would've made a diffrence.
Maybe you can try a few 13 pool openings on that map.
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On the kulas ravine game:
-overlord should of been at the cliff where his reapers were harassing you from, along with the queen
-after canceling the expo you could of tried teching to mutas, and then harassing him while you took a high yield. instead you tried to push out with roaches / lings and expand. I think that's a mistake
-best not to chase the reapers with your lings off of creep.
-you could probably skip roaches and try dual queens / lings while you tech to muta.
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On April 02 2010 16:49 newbcake wrote:
i'm both a z and t player #1 plat in my div and I can't understand why you'd complain about being forced to get ling speed. speedlings and banelings rape every terran unit that comes out from the barracks. All he's doing is cutting scvs and building long build time reapers that die against speedlings with an upgrade you should be researching anyway. there's no reason to ever build roaches! you're just inviting him to mass his best unit, marauders. i'd even rather use speedlings vs helions than roaches.
Anyway, here's what you do against someone that opens fast reaper: sit in your base massing drones while fending them off with a queen and 1 or 2 pairs of zerglings. wait for ling speed to finish; this'll make your base unharassable now. run to his entrance and morph into banelings; boom, instant GG. someone that opens fast reaper is almost assured to have a supply depot wall, and going fast reaper means he won't have enough marauders or marines to stop you from running amok in his base. if he tries to fast tech to either helions or banshees, he won't have enough out to stop you.
i think this is spot-on.
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i like the last poster, yeah i'd personally just pump some extra lings and run to his main so he'd be pressured to not harass you and focus on defense/production of units before following up with tech.
also you can always go roach warren before expo as a 'standard' play style, you won't lose much in mining/gas/larva anyway expo'ing that early if you continue pumping drones.
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On April 02 2010 15:37 TSL-Lore wrote:
i would be sad if something as simple as a reaper rush, which can be decided within the first 3 minutes of the game, FORCES the zerg to do something like this in response. Makes for a shallow match up.
so that zerg did 1 base right?
it's like when zerg puts down a roach warren. terran has to get marauders. then hidden spire comes and rapes them.
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the reaper rush denies any econ based fast exp, I've done it a lot. The solution, as someone already pointed out, is to try to run him over with speedlings. That's the only times I've lost with this type of build. However, if you scout it, and rewall with fac rax its possible to stop obviously. Just gotta play smart and delay your expo a bit if you see 11rax techlab with early gas. 1 base ling speed is good against it with later nat hatch.
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I tried few reaper openings, but I prefer standard macro because
1. a fast reaper first optimized opening is economically weak
2. too easily countered by a zerg with decent micro
3. a lot of gas invested
4. After reapers have been used, it becomes obsolete; Reapers can't contribute its weight in resources in a mid-latemidgame macro battle (including terran's one-punch) that typically includes roaches and hydras.
5. If a reaper harass is decently defended, the zerg can macro from 2 base and counter the terran. Even if not, the Z can fast lair into hydra or muta, and in both situations the reapers cannot contribute much (although hydras are light, reapers can't face hydras in battles and it wouldn't be cost efficient anyway)
6. Kinda forces an aggressive game which leave the T vulnerable if the attacks are defended properly (high risk)
I think reapers are great if the opponent goes a ling-heavy play in which case the T can add some reapers to add dps against lings. But after early game, the more resources invested in reapers, the further behind in tech the T is (different from MM who are crucial part of the T's army through the entire game).
Of course, reaper into banshee or hellions are both good strategies, but they're really just strategies that has characteristics similar to cheeses (not that they are strictly cheeses but the two require catching opponent off-guard to do damage, and in some heavily invested variations, they are quite close to being cheeses).
I think using the gas to tech to medivacs and upgrades allow for a safer play with the resource investment being better over time than if the resources were spent on reapers.
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sorta makes me wonder why reapers are in the game tbh, they are worthless past the first few minutes in almost every game i've played or seen. every other tier 1+ unit looks to have a use throughout the course of the game
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give the reapers spider mines ^_^ TvP would be really really really fun, for the terran.
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Only mine from your main early, you don't have enough drones for 2 bases anyway. Get 1x spinecrawler on your gas side and put the queen(s) on the other side. Chase them off your 2nd hatch as required, they'll get some shots in on hatch but won't make kills. Build as normal otherwise. Transfer drones when you can sufficiently defend both sites. This will transpose into more normal play very quickly because the reapers can't do anything of value.
You might want to consider a 10/11 overpool rather than 13 pool for the earlier queen on smaller maps. You were losing 2-4 drones before the queen spawned which is a big hit that early.
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It seems to me that I need to scout the terran before i decide to FE or not. If i see an early tech lab, then that's considered something aggressive enough by the terran that I cannot FE. For some reason, that seems a little weird to me. In the past, the only thing a terran did that would prevent a zerg from taking his natural was some sort of proxy multi-rax play, which is really all in. I suppose SC2 is at the point where the zerg not taking his nat right away may become "standard play?"
It just seems weird that an in-base rax, part of your wall as normal (i suppose the rax is an scv or 2 sooner for a reaper rush, which isn't really that all in if you ask me), is already enough to make the zerg not be able to FE.
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I think that you just kind of have to take the reaper harrass. As soon as you have some roach, spread them out to prevent it.
Surviving it isn't that difficult. static D will do it, roaches will do it, speedlings will definitely do it. Once you have that down, just know that the Terran has spent quite a bit of gas, and will be vulnerable to quick counter attack. Even just 5 roaches running up will ruin a lot of terran's day if he's built more than 3-4 reapers, and force game control back into your camp.
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why would you reaper harass against zerg when you have hellions?
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On April 03 2010 01:16 bountyface wrote:
why would you reaper harass against zerg when you have hellions?
reaper comes in about 4 mins, denying any hatch before pool or even 14 pool 15 hatch economic standard zerg BOs.
The hellion has always been very easy to defend for me (except for when im behind from the Reapers, like in game 2 on desert oasis) because it comes later, around 6 mins
edit: i have a feeling we'll see you in this thread later: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696 like that user from earlier in this thread lol_women'srights
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You will have to go Roaches in order to beat fast reapers. but rest assured that 1 Roach will fend off about 3 reapers. since reapers don't do +dmg to roaches like they do to lings. speed lings are not the way to go IMO that early in the game you will get lings with speed yes but when he hits, you will have 4 lings and speed upgrading; and he'll just micro you down. however 1 roach will turn the tide and make him retreat.
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On April 03 2010 01:22 Twe3k wrote:
You will have to go Roaches in order to beat fast reapers. but rest assured that 1 Roach will fend off about 3 reapers. since reapers don't do +dmg to roaches like they do to lings. speed lings are not the way to go IMO that early in the game you will get lings with speed yes but when he hits, you will have 4 lings and speed upgrading; and he'll just micro you down. however 1 roach will turn the tide and make him retreat.
you should probably watch the replays, as 'retreating' reapers is kind of waht they do best. roaches feel really slow. What league are you (not being dis-respectful, just wondering)?
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Tweex.Terres I was platinum pre patch 6 but got thrown in to Gold this go around. Currently fighting back in to plat. Normally when I rush Reapers I rush at 2 reapers at about 3.5 minutes in to the game, if I see any roaches I just bail out and turtle till banshees if not I go in harass and split b 4 losing reapers.
*Edit - And I'd love to watch your replay =( but I'm at work and its much EZer to Theorycraft sorry.
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On April 03 2010 01:33 Twe3k wrote:
Tweex.Terres I was platinum pre patch 6 but got thrown in to Gold this go around. Currently fighting back in to plat. Normally when I rush Reapers I rush at 2 reapers at about 3.5 minutes in to the game, if I see any roaches I just bail out and turtle till banshees if not I go in harass and split b 4 losing reapers.
you should be more aggressive with your reapers, as they out-range and out-maneuver roaches really easily. Don't wait til 2 reapers, just send your first one to harass drones/see what hes doing/deny FE. Watch the replays
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Every zerg should build at least 2 queens. Late game 4
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Watched your reps. Despite the one game vs Fenix on Desert Oasis your Queen defense was quite good. Think if you see 2 or more reaper following the inital one you have to sacrifice your ovi and look up what he is going for. You need to know if he is going mass mm or banshee to react properly.
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you guys aren't addressing the reaper bunker rush problem though. it's actually a very strong build
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On April 03 2010 01:55 cartoon]x wrote:
you guys aren't addressing the reaper bunker rush problem though. it's actually a very strong build
i think it essentially forces zerg to not FE in any form at all. You need to have a decent early game army before expanding
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On April 02 2010 13:16 TSL-Lore wrote:Hmm.. I just fought a couple Terrans in a row. I fought Fenix twice and another Terran named Slurgi (in the replays included below) where they all opened with a super fast reaper. They would continue with a few more Reapers, denying my expo or just harassing my drones. I'm trying to figure out.. what can a Zerg do against this? It seems I have to get ling speed or roaches to deal with it, which delays my ability to fend off whatever they come with next (in Fenix's case, quick Banshees. In Slurgi's case, simply a strong MMM attack) Since they had the reapers in the beginning, they can essentially always see what the Zerg is going to do in response, and simply counter accordingly. I was Rank 1 in my Division (platinum division 6) for ever since the reset. After these 3 losses, I got bumped down to 3rd, and I'm afraid to play until I've figured out how to stop it. It seems that the Reaper opening doesn't really cost the Terran anything, as a Terran is always gonna want to have a rax with a tech lab attached. In the case of other types of harass oriented openings, the Terran usually has to sacrifice something. For example, early Vikings means virtually no ground army. Early Hellions usually means not too many Barracks. This is true for other races as well. Early DTs means low gateway count. Early Phoenix means no ground army. But the reaper comes so early, and with such low opportunity cost, that it seems very very difficult to exploit any weakness. I've tried a few things.. extra queen, early ling speed, early roaches. Even if I fend off the reaper harass without too many losses, I feel really behind for the rest of the game (especially in Slurgi's game, where he just A-moved in later with a Nuke to boot) Have any of you zergs had any success against these new Reaper Terrans? Replays posted below: http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/620 - Reaper opening with banshee follow up http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/621 - Reaper opening with Hellion follow up http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/622 - Reaper opening with expo-MMM follow up
I just watched the first game and the first thing i noticed is, after you made the hatchery, you spent your minerals on extractor and drones. Instead you should save your money till pool finishes and make a queen + 1-2 lings. and maybe a third by freeing 1 supply by making an extractor. and only after these you should ovie/drone etc.
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On April 03 2010 01:35 TSL-Lore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 01:33 Twe3k wrote:
Tweex.Terres I was platinum pre patch 6 but got thrown in to Gold this go around. Currently fighting back in to plat. Normally when I rush Reapers I rush at 2 reapers at about 3.5 minutes in to the game, if I see any roaches I just bail out and turtle till banshees if not I go in harass and split b 4 losing reapers. you should be more aggressive with your reapers, as they out-range and out-maneuver roaches really easily. Don't wait til 2 reapers, just send your first one to harass drones/see what hes doing/deny FE. Watch the replays
I'll keep that in mind. perhaps I'm underestimating the strength of my own reapers.I always think that they are exceptionally week. I've gotten my reapers killed by a drone attack and bad micro a few times aswell, that has detoured me a bit.
however I'mma have to check out your replay I can see how a fast reaper would completely Dominate a Fast FE, and give you some troubles pre-queen. Just remember Reapers eat those lings for breakfast. and with out like double the number of reapers in lings they don't stand a good chance.
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On April 03 2010 02:30 Twe3k wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 01:35 TSL-Lore wrote:On April 03 2010 01:33 Twe3k wrote:
Tweex.Terres I was platinum pre patch 6 but got thrown in to Gold this go around. Currently fighting back in to plat. Normally when I rush Reapers I rush at 2 reapers at about 3.5 minutes in to the game, if I see any roaches I just bail out and turtle till banshees if not I go in harass and split b 4 losing reapers. you should be more aggressive with your reapers, as they out-range and out-maneuver roaches really easily. Don't wait til 2 reapers, just send your first one to harass drones/see what hes doing/deny FE. Watch the replays I'll keep that in mind. perhaps I'm underestimating the strength of my own reapers.I always think that they are exceptionally week. I've gotten my reapers killed by a drone attack and bad micro a few times aswell, that has detoured me a bit. however I'mma have to check out your replay I can see how a fast reaper would completely Dominate a Fast FE, and give you some troubles pre-queen. Just remember Reapers eat those lings for breakfast. and with out like double the number of reapers in lings they don't stand a good chance.
yeah, definitely, in response to your post and the one before it. Even if i were to not spend money on extractor and drone, and instead save for a few lings, its almost like i "pre-killed" my own drones to make those lings. The lings arent going to kill the Reapers, so by making the lings that early, before ling speed, i've essentially already made his reapers semi-worth it. Lings arent good against reapers at all without speed.
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Perhaps the deal is you can't afford to go a late pool into FE. Perhaps something closer to over10 pool into FE would give you the earlier lings you need to keep a bunker from going down, and the earlier queen or roach warren to deal with reapers. Remember, he's cutting eco quite a bit to go rax first, so you'll easily be ahead if you manage to hold it off as such.
You could also consider building a crawler in your main and walking into your expo so as it comes up you'll have a crawler right there. Not sure how timings work of course.
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I don't like any build that involves cutting scvs, i'm too greedy TT. But maybe you can somehow exploit the fact that enemy goes rax refinery depot to get it that fast. Like faster pool, i think it hurts zerg less to get quick pool than it hurts T to get late depot. But problem is your drone/ov would have to arrive at 10 supply, which may involve veeery fast scouting timing on 4player maps.
Gotta test this strat when i come back to dorm after Easter. My pc at home is crappy ;<
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Seems like the main response is:
Queen + lings + micro = solved.
Zerg have a much easier time with this than Protoss do atm.
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tweak, you probably are getting your reapers late because you're not using the early gas / barracks build.
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I also have huge problems against this. The problem is, T gets free scouting, while u cant do shit. If u go roaches to hold it off, he follows up with banshees and there is no way in hell you gonna have hydras out in time, so u get even more delayed by throwing down spores/building extra queens. He then proceeds to roll your weakened ass which cant get a third base up with a standard mmm army. If you go speedlings to fend off the reapers, he just researches infernal preigniter and pushes you with a cpl hellions and marauders. I honestly dont know what to do. The tech lab opening makes his follow up so quick and versatile while reapers delays ur lair / drone pumping and lets him scout what he has to do.
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On April 03 2010 03:27 cartoon]x wrote:
tweak, you probably are getting your reapers late because you're not using the early gas / barracks build.
normally I rock 10 SD 11 Barracks 12 Gas 14 Barracks 15 gas 16OC, SD ASAP after OC! Tech labs ASAP and reapers HO!!!! normally the first two reapers spawn at the same time. than i go. And its not that I'm slow I just don't like to mess with Queens or Roaches I'd rather have my reapers alive and well defending behind some SD's, they'll die when I get banshee's anyway. and as long as I've peaked around and seen their tech tree I know what to expect.
I would say to go Roaches, expand, and Go Muta. They will see your early Roach tech and hard counter, and you'll walk on in and laugh at their lack of Marines.
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Expand, make 2 queens and get zergling speed EVERY SINGLE GAME.
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wow, some big names posting in my "help" thread. Thanks for the info..
Louder, do you mean to make 2 queens and FE as normal? FE before or after metabolic boost?
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here are some reps to show the problem against top notch euro players (i know i played far from perfect, but it was far from close as well)
Example 1
Example 2
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im totally leaning towards going for ling speed before taking an expansion. Power drones from 1 base and take the expo when ling speed is nearly done. Havent tried it yet.. will try when i get home from work. has anyone else had success with this?
I cant help but feel like im behind though... 1 base terran with MULE is so strong
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Hi diehilde, your replay arent showing what the OP means.
Standard reaper rush is 10 rax 10 ref 11 supply. You get reaper like a minute before the normal build and thats what its all about.
You then proceed to bunker his choke or near his creep. You're clearly never getting a FE up against a 10 rax build.
The 10 rax reaper build is much superior than the normal economic build most terran does.
Its clearly a very strong opening against zerg. I think it will become the standard opening as it force the zerg into roaches and it makes fast expansion an auto-loss. You'll never keep up with lings if he gets bunkers up. You snipe a few drones and suddenly the zerg is WAY behind because he cant keep making drones and defense against reapers.
In my build, I dont get the quick OC, I rather get 2 extra barracks then upgrade OC. I get a lot more reapers that way and I can put a lot of pressure on the zerg. It's also safe if he went real fast roaches as I can make 3 marauders to defend.
Variations of this build could be quick OC into fast expand and then add more barracks. I'd suspect this opening might be the safest.
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On April 03 2010 04:07 Fallen wrote:
Variations of this build could be quick OC into fast expand and then add more barracks. I'd suspect this opening might be the safest.
this is what Slurgi did in my 3rd game. It felt like he had no openings, and was ahead of me the entire game =[
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I just dont understand the complaint of having a build that is revolved around worse economy and harrass is making a Fast expand build that is heavily economically focused hard or even countered. And that it would make the MU shallow?
So "10pool10gas speedlings makes 14 rax, 15 CC obsolete - that makes for a shallow matchup."
Do you have any terran experience btw? 1 base terran with MULE can only do so much you know.
The way it seems to work now is that since zerg has a way of beeing able to saturate two bases EXTREMLY fast due to queen mechanics, the other races either open up with ways to prolong the saturation time to catch up into midgame where the zerg exploads if not beeing tempered with, or just open up with builds that straight up will kill them quite early, i.e timing pushes, i.e punish the zerg for beeing greedy.
If you could get away with this fast expand EVERY time without having to beeing forced into building units/static defense, it would be a very shallow game. Luckily it isnt 
And tbh Slurgis play and specially opening seemed quite weak imo and very susceptible to banelings. His army was very Marine heavy for that type of midgame push. He also controled the ZN towers, even the one on your side when you had your army just bellow it, and when he moved in on you he scanned you and got the attackers advantage of stimming and moving in, getting the first shots in which more than rarely plays a huge role in the bigger clashes.
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I just feel it's EXTREMELY safer to wait till i'm 20-21 pop to make my expo against T.
Right now in this game there are 2 big reasons you shouldn't just assume it's "safe" to do something like 14 hatch opening against T:
1- reaper harass
2- bunker rush
the "safest" map for early expo is probably Blistering Sands and maybe Scrap Station. Rush distance is longer on Desert Oasis but the distance from your natural expo to your main is also long and the T can usually just bypass your expo direct into your main (bad), not to mention this is a great map for Reapers. Once again, worth mentioning that Kulas Ravine is the most overpowered map for T in the game and just play safest as possible every game there and expect a very early T expand on his protected natural (which is lame and hard to counter).
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On April 03 2010 04:34 zazen wrote:
I just feel it's EXTREMELY safer to wait till i'm 20-21 pop to make my expo against T.
Right now in this game there are 2 big reasons you shouldn't just assume it's "safe" to do something like 14 hatch opening against T:
1- reaper harass
2- bunker rush
the "safest" map for early expo is probably Blistering Sands and maybe Scrap Station. Rush distance is longer on Desert Oasis but the distance from your natural expo to your main is also long and the T can usually just bypass your expo direct into your main (bad), not to mention this is a great map for Reapers. Once again, worth mentioning that Kulas Ravine is the most overpowered map for T in the game and just play safest as possible every game there and expect a very early T expand on his protected natural (which is lame and hard to counter).
the problem isnt 14 hat, whoever 14 hats deserves to lose right away. Its that reapers scout u out while delaying everything and then the terran can prepare a perfect midgame counter to whatever u decided to do against the reapers. Its basically a 0% information against 100% information game for as long as T manages to keep some reapers alive (and good ts have no problem keeping those things alive forever).
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I don't see how this is preventable. I've been using it since this thread, and every time I have been stopped, I've won, at most, 10 mins later. It's exactly as diehilde says.
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I would go lings to fast speedlings then just mass up while leaving a small defensive force in base. Zerg can make units a lot faster than Terran... exploit it.
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On April 03 2010 04:19 Kyuki wrote:I just dont understand the complaint of having a build that is revolved around worse economy and harrass is making a Fast expand build that is heavily economically focused hard or even countered. And that it would make the MU shallow? So "10pool10gas speedlings makes 14 rax, 15 CC obsolete - that makes for a shallow matchup." Do you have any terran experience btw? 1 base terran with MULE can only do so much you know. The way it seems to work now is that since zerg has a way of beeing able to saturate two bases EXTREMLY fast due to queen mechanics, the other races either open up with ways to prolong the saturation time to catch up into midgame where the zerg exploads if not beeing tempered with, or just open up with builds that straight up will kill them quite early, i.e timing pushes, i.e punish the zerg for beeing greedy. If you could get away with this fast expand EVERY time without having to beeing forced into building units/static defense, it would be a very shallow game. Luckily it isnt And tbh Slurgis play and specially opening seemed quite weak imo and very susceptible to banelings. His army was very Marine heavy for that type of midgame push. He also controled the ZN towers, even the one on your side when you had your army just bellow it, and when he moved in on you he scanned you and got the attackers advantage of stimming and moving in, getting the first shots in which more than rarely plays a huge role in the bigger clashes.
I'd like to counter by asking if you've had any experience playing Zerg? 1 base zerg generally maens 1 hatchery + 1 queen. This is much much weaker than 1 base terran. Unless you propose that its good to put a 2nd hatch in your main vs terran, which in my experience, doesn't work out very well unless you do some all in.
In my opinion, terran isn't designed to need that fast expo, while zerg is. This is mostly due to the fact that hatcheries double as command center and barracks. Using a hatchery in your main base that doesn't serve as an expansion is simply not worth it. The long build time and high capital cost doesn't make it as efficient as a barracks, in terms of building fighting units.
Terrans on the other hand can afford to stay on one base longer, since they have biuldings specially designed to produce just fighting units. You wouldn't build a command center and just have it sit in your main so that you could produce marauders faster. Thats not how the race works. On top of this, a 1 base terran using MULEs can out-mine a 1 base zerg in all instances, further supporting the zerg's necessity to have an expansion.
the reason it makes the match up shallow is that the Terran's decision to make a reaper early doesn't actually deviate his normal and natural build order as much it forces the zerg to deviate. This is why Diehilde is mentioning that its not the reapers themselves that destroy the zerg, but the fact that the reapers provide 100% information for any future counter, WHILE denying that much needed expo, WHILE also forcing early fighting units form the zerg who has an already shot economy and production, cuz he couldnt produce that hatchery in the first place.
anyway, all of this could be completely moot if expanding after metabolic boost is entirely viable.. which it seems like a lot of people say works.
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On April 03 2010 06:18 TSL-Lore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 04:19 Kyuki wrote:I just dont understand the complaint of having a build that is revolved around worse economy and harrass is making a Fast expand build that is heavily economically focused hard or even countered. And that it would make the MU shallow? So "10pool10gas speedlings makes 14 rax, 15 CC obsolete - that makes for a shallow matchup." Do you have any terran experience btw? 1 base terran with MULE can only do so much you know. The way it seems to work now is that since zerg has a way of beeing able to saturate two bases EXTREMLY fast due to queen mechanics, the other races either open up with ways to prolong the saturation time to catch up into midgame where the zerg exploads if not beeing tempered with, or just open up with builds that straight up will kill them quite early, i.e timing pushes, i.e punish the zerg for beeing greedy. If you could get away with this fast expand EVERY time without having to beeing forced into building units/static defense, it would be a very shallow game. Luckily it isnt And tbh Slurgis play and specially opening seemed quite weak imo and very susceptible to banelings. His army was very Marine heavy for that type of midgame push. He also controled the ZN towers, even the one on your side when you had your army just bellow it, and when he moved in on you he scanned you and got the attackers advantage of stimming and moving in, getting the first shots in which more than rarely plays a huge role in the bigger clashes. I'd like to counter by asking if you've had any experience playing Zerg? 1 base zerg generally maens 1 hatchery + 1 queen. This is much much weaker than 1 base terran. Unless you propose that its good to put a 2nd hatch in your main vs terran, which in my experience, doesn't work out very well unless you do some all in. In my opinion, terran isn't designed to need that fast expo, while zerg is. This is mostly due to the fact that hatcheries double as command center and barracks. Using a hatchery in your main base that doesn't serve as an expansion is simply not worth it. The long build time and high capital cost doesn't make it as efficient as a barracks, in terms of building fighting units. Terrans on the other hand can afford to stay on one base longer, since they have biuldings specially designed to produce just fighting units. You wouldn't build a command center and just have it sit in your main so that you could produce marauders faster. Thats not how the race works. On top of this, a 1 base terran using MULEs can out-mine a 1 base zerg in all instances, further supporting the zerg's necessity to have an expansion. the reason it makes the match up shallow is that the Terran's decision to make a reaper early doesn't actually deviate his normal and natural build order as much it forces the zerg to deviate. This is why Diehilde is mentioning that its not the reapers themselves that destroy the zerg, but the fact that the reapers provide 100% information for any future counter, WHILE denying that much needed expo, WHILE also forcing early fighting units form the zerg who has an already shot economy and production, cuz he couldnt produce that hatchery in the first place. anyway, all of this could be completely moot if expanding after metabolic boost is entirely viable.. which it seems like a lot of people say works.
Yes I have experience as Zerg and Terran. Very little toss though.
I never proposed that you should go 1-base, that is not "the safer play". The way you expand however is what is important and if you choose to do it the way you did in the games you just showed us, you're beeing greedy and open to early harass and you should get punished for it if it's possible.
That's how all MUs work in modern BW, and I dont see why that is a bad thing.
A one base Terran wont outmine a one base Zerg until they both hit midgame since zerg will double the workercount of Terran in 1 min. I mean your argument isnt really valid to this whole situation anyways since we're not comparing one base plays. That would look completely diffrent..
Anyways you're somehow saying that it doenst effect Terran as it effects zerg, and that's just horrendusly wrong. If you do another build that is just half as greedy (still beeing rather greedy compared to T - say 13 pool->hatch->gas->speed) you're all good and you even deny him all the scouting after the first reaper.
You're in a good spot, and you go into midgame with shitloads of drones because the terran cant put any preassure on you since he opened reapers which puts him waay behind on anything he want to do that doesnt involve something sneaky which is only really beeing doable if the opening harass did its damage.
I think you're overexaggerating abit and you wish your economical build would work against anything.
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On April 03 2010 07:27 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 06:18 TSL-Lore wrote:On April 03 2010 04:19 Kyuki wrote:I just dont understand the complaint of having a build that is revolved around worse economy and harrass is making a Fast expand build that is heavily economically focused hard or even countered. And that it would make the MU shallow? So "10pool10gas speedlings makes 14 rax, 15 CC obsolete - that makes for a shallow matchup." Do you have any terran experience btw? 1 base terran with MULE can only do so much you know. The way it seems to work now is that since zerg has a way of beeing able to saturate two bases EXTREMLY fast due to queen mechanics, the other races either open up with ways to prolong the saturation time to catch up into midgame where the zerg exploads if not beeing tempered with, or just open up with builds that straight up will kill them quite early, i.e timing pushes, i.e punish the zerg for beeing greedy. If you could get away with this fast expand EVERY time without having to beeing forced into building units/static defense, it would be a very shallow game. Luckily it isnt And tbh Slurgis play and specially opening seemed quite weak imo and very susceptible to banelings. His army was very Marine heavy for that type of midgame push. He also controled the ZN towers, even the one on your side when you had your army just bellow it, and when he moved in on you he scanned you and got the attackers advantage of stimming and moving in, getting the first shots in which more than rarely plays a huge role in the bigger clashes. I'd like to counter by asking if you've had any experience playing Zerg? 1 base zerg generally maens 1 hatchery + 1 queen. This is much much weaker than 1 base terran. Unless you propose that its good to put a 2nd hatch in your main vs terran, which in my experience, doesn't work out very well unless you do some all in. In my opinion, terran isn't designed to need that fast expo, while zerg is. This is mostly due to the fact that hatcheries double as command center and barracks. Using a hatchery in your main base that doesn't serve as an expansion is simply not worth it. The long build time and high capital cost doesn't make it as efficient as a barracks, in terms of building fighting units. Terrans on the other hand can afford to stay on one base longer, since they have biuldings specially designed to produce just fighting units. You wouldn't build a command center and just have it sit in your main so that you could produce marauders faster. Thats not how the race works. On top of this, a 1 base terran using MULEs can out-mine a 1 base zerg in all instances, further supporting the zerg's necessity to have an expansion. the reason it makes the match up shallow is that the Terran's decision to make a reaper early doesn't actually deviate his normal and natural build order as much it forces the zerg to deviate. This is why Diehilde is mentioning that its not the reapers themselves that destroy the zerg, but the fact that the reapers provide 100% information for any future counter, WHILE denying that much needed expo, WHILE also forcing early fighting units form the zerg who has an already shot economy and production, cuz he couldnt produce that hatchery in the first place. anyway, all of this could be completely moot if expanding after metabolic boost is entirely viable.. which it seems like a lot of people say works. Yes I have experience as Zerg and Terran. Very little toss though. I never proposed that you should go 1-base, that is not "the safer play". The way you expand however is what is important and if you choose to do it the way you did in the games you just showed us, you're beeing greedy and open to early harass and you should get punished for it if it's possible. That's how all MUs work in modern BW, and I dont see why that is a bad thing. A one base Terran wont outmine a one base Zerg until they both hit midgame since zerg will double the workercount of Terran in 1 min. I mean your argument isnt really valid to this whole situation anyways since we're not comparing one base plays. That would look completely diffrent.. Anyways you're somehow saying that it doenst effect Terran as it effects zerg, and that's just horrendusly wrong. If you do another build that is just half as greedy (still beeing rather greedy compared to T - say 13 pool->hatch->gas->speed) you're all good and you even deny him all the scouting after the first reaper. You're in a good spot, and you go into midgame with shitloads of drones because the terran cant put any preassure on you since he opened reapers which puts him waay behind on anything he want to do that doesnt involve something sneaky which is only really beeing doable if the opening harass did its damage. I think you're overexaggerating abit and you wish your economical build would work against anything.
I can see you did not watch the replays, as i DID open pool first , then hatch. I only opened hatch first on desert oasis, but on the other 2 games, i opened 14 pool first.
In almost all my games, i open pool first, and i realize hatch first is open to early game antics. The problem here is that the reaper comes at a stage where even if u opened pool first, it can still deny your expo or make your life hell fairly easily (because lings and drones are terrible vs reapers)
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before patch 6 i was going alot of fe against zerg (1rax fe) but now ive been playing some reaper openers against z today since hellion openers r pretty bad now because all z seem to be getting roaches kinda early
i think reapers r ok but ive been dying to zergs who has been massing speedlings
the most solid bo a z can do to me seems to be 14pool then get the hatch going, then gas and roach warren. it seems to me like if t hellion u go roach and tech to lair into hydra, and if they reaper u can just make lings and lingspeed like holy hell and run t over. the reapers only seem to be strong early game but as soon as z get ling speed u cant do shit, ur rax busy making reapers so now u sit with 0 defense :p
nobody is playing 14hatch anymore, also i dont understand zergs who think they r behind by making fast roach to protect against these terran rushes. we have to cut scvs while u cut drone, but the fact is that u replenish drones alot faster cause of queen. our mule give us money but not faster scv production so we r forced to add production facilities and tech when we really want to be getting scvs
but i dunno, i only played about 5 tvzs of reaper opener and watched about 5 tvzs of lucifron doing this. ill see if ill play more tomorrow xd i still get the impression that zerg is the easiest race to defend rushes with. the race which requires least builds or adapters. i feel like z can have a gameplan in zvt, a few adapters but in the end can just solidly outmacro and overrun t as soon as he move out for a timing attack in later game
also on a sidenote 1base zerg pure hydra pump outmacro anything terran does on 1base macro with mule.
dont feel bad that u need to delay ur expo against rushes or is playing against him on equal bases
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8 rax, which is counter to fast expansion. Don't fast expand when a Terran player is going 8 rax, it's basic knowledge. This topic should be closed.
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I think that the people saying that the reaper rush is overpowered are not thinking outside the frame of this one build order (14pool FE). It is very easy to get a pool sooner, to build one crawler or roll out a queen (all of which counter reapers). But just as easily, you can use a different BO like 10 pool and avoid the issue altogether.
When you scout an early rax with tech lab, it's not rocket surgery () that he's going reapers. If you don't build to counter, who is to blame? You can still be greedy, just not as much as 14pool FE.
It seems like you guys simply found a build or two that gave you a higher win ratio and rode them to #1 plat. I think a little innovation and strategic thought would go a long way towards countering this "overpowered" strategy.
Edit: completely agree with Morrow. When I play T, zerg is the last race I want to reaper rush. Protoss is the only race that should be concerned about this strategy because if they don't have stalkers on their way, then gg cause zealots are going to get kited all day long. Terran can at least not be kited and zerg has a queen right in the mineral line.
Very confused about what it means to be high/top platinum zerg if a reaper rush gets this much attention from ZERG of all races.
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Do you terrans usually wait for speed or rather just rally your first couple? i personally like getting 3-5 with speed while massing maraudors and expanding, keeping the reapers alive is crucial or he will just move out and pwn your FE.
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in sc2 fast expo with zerg is not safe and shouldnt be the norm
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On April 03 2010 08:06 TSL-Lore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 07:27 Kyuki wrote:On April 03 2010 06:18 TSL-Lore wrote:On April 03 2010 04:19 Kyuki wrote:I just dont understand the complaint of having a build that is revolved around worse economy and harrass is making a Fast expand build that is heavily economically focused hard or even countered. And that it would make the MU shallow? So "10pool10gas speedlings makes 14 rax, 15 CC obsolete - that makes for a shallow matchup." Do you have any terran experience btw? 1 base terran with MULE can only do so much you know. The way it seems to work now is that since zerg has a way of beeing able to saturate two bases EXTREMLY fast due to queen mechanics, the other races either open up with ways to prolong the saturation time to catch up into midgame where the zerg exploads if not beeing tempered with, or just open up with builds that straight up will kill them quite early, i.e timing pushes, i.e punish the zerg for beeing greedy. If you could get away with this fast expand EVERY time without having to beeing forced into building units/static defense, it would be a very shallow game. Luckily it isnt And tbh Slurgis play and specially opening seemed quite weak imo and very susceptible to banelings. His army was very Marine heavy for that type of midgame push. He also controled the ZN towers, even the one on your side when you had your army just bellow it, and when he moved in on you he scanned you and got the attackers advantage of stimming and moving in, getting the first shots in which more than rarely plays a huge role in the bigger clashes. I'd like to counter by asking if you've had any experience playing Zerg? 1 base zerg generally maens 1 hatchery + 1 queen. This is much much weaker than 1 base terran. Unless you propose that its good to put a 2nd hatch in your main vs terran, which in my experience, doesn't work out very well unless you do some all in. In my opinion, terran isn't designed to need that fast expo, while zerg is. This is mostly due to the fact that hatcheries double as command center and barracks. Using a hatchery in your main base that doesn't serve as an expansion is simply not worth it. The long build time and high capital cost doesn't make it as efficient as a barracks, in terms of building fighting units. Terrans on the other hand can afford to stay on one base longer, since they have biuldings specially designed to produce just fighting units. You wouldn't build a command center and just have it sit in your main so that you could produce marauders faster. Thats not how the race works. On top of this, a 1 base terran using MULEs can out-mine a 1 base zerg in all instances, further supporting the zerg's necessity to have an expansion. the reason it makes the match up shallow is that the Terran's decision to make a reaper early doesn't actually deviate his normal and natural build order as much it forces the zerg to deviate. This is why Diehilde is mentioning that its not the reapers themselves that destroy the zerg, but the fact that the reapers provide 100% information for any future counter, WHILE denying that much needed expo, WHILE also forcing early fighting units form the zerg who has an already shot economy and production, cuz he couldnt produce that hatchery in the first place. anyway, all of this could be completely moot if expanding after metabolic boost is entirely viable.. which it seems like a lot of people say works. Yes I have experience as Zerg and Terran. Very little toss though. I never proposed that you should go 1-base, that is not "the safer play". The way you expand however is what is important and if you choose to do it the way you did in the games you just showed us, you're beeing greedy and open to early harass and you should get punished for it if it's possible. That's how all MUs work in modern BW, and I dont see why that is a bad thing. A one base Terran wont outmine a one base Zerg until they both hit midgame since zerg will double the workercount of Terran in 1 min. I mean your argument isnt really valid to this whole situation anyways since we're not comparing one base plays. That would look completely diffrent.. Anyways you're somehow saying that it doenst effect Terran as it effects zerg, and that's just horrendusly wrong. If you do another build that is just half as greedy (still beeing rather greedy compared to T - say 13 pool->hatch->gas->speed) you're all good and you even deny him all the scouting after the first reaper. You're in a good spot, and you go into midgame with shitloads of drones because the terran cant put any preassure on you since he opened reapers which puts him waay behind on anything he want to do that doesnt involve something sneaky which is only really beeing doable if the opening harass did its damage. I think you're overexaggerating abit and you wish your economical build would work against anything. I can see you did not watch the replays, as i DID open pool first , then hatch. I only opened hatch first on desert oasis, but on the other 2 games, i opened 14 pool first. In almost all my games, i open pool first, and i realize hatch first is open to early game antics. The problem here is that the reaper comes at a stage where even if u opened pool first, it can still deny your expo or make your life hell fairly easily (because lings and drones are terrible vs reapers)
Hehe, I did watch your replays and you just dont seem to understand what I'm trying to tell you regardless.
In the game vs Fenix on Kulas your pool was done when his reaper was at 2/3s production, and right after you lay down your natural hatch you make two drones and one extractor delaying your queen and your lings <- this is where you lost the game.
That's semi OK since you hadnt scouted him yet and you didnt know how to deal with the fast reaper, but what happens later is that when you start your queen, you decide to make a OL before you start your first set of lings and here the drones you invested in instead of saving larvae for a few early lings/queen hurts you really bad and pretty much ends the game since you have nothing to defend with.
Even with a build like what you did on Kulas I think you could've put up a better fight if you played more safe and actually make use of the pool you made at 14.
Honestly, if you dont intend to use a structure until X, then dont even make it, the ordering of how you make things is very important in the early game.
Now imagine a 13 pool where you start your queen right as the pool finnishes and make two sets of lings just for starters before you make your gas and THEN go back to droning if needed.
The game on Desert you 15 hatch and his reapers isnt that fast anyways. It's a pretty "standard" (supply before rax) reaper which is better economical and will lead to stronger whatever later on.
Your problem on this map was your queen defense imo, you somehow wandered off from your mineral line with both your queens and you had like 12 drones killed because of it. Your nat hatch queen was on patrol above the hatch as far from the mineral line as possible (in proximity of the hatch) and your main queen was wandering up towards your chamber and after that you put it on patrol up between your left sides minerals and up to the chamber.
This makes absolutly no sense since you're most vulnerable down where the reaper can just jump up to your mineral straight away, and if he chooses to, he can go for the gas drones and your queen will have a hard time to catch him.
In that game you could've probably just made a more even game if you hadnt had those major issues with queen positioning.
In the game vs Slurgi your queen came out much better and the first reaper did pretty much nothing for it's earlyness and its cost.
Again you do some strange stuff with queen patroling and after your first 4 lings you just stop making them until your speed is done which is a tad confusing, but I guess understandable if you didnt expect any more reapers. Making two more sets to be safe could've saved you a few more drones, but more importantly staying on one base for a little longer would both improve your dronecount (early) and your defensive position since it's much harder to attack one base with queen+lings than 2, and if the early reapers is repelled it's a quite heavy investment down the drain for the Terran and you can continue into midgame and your dronepump -> mass hydra or whatever.
What I think lost you the game though was that slurgi killed a overlord in the middle of the map and then the one in his base just before he hit your front for the first time and it took you a good one minute or so to be back on positive food (you did manage to squeeze out 10 extra lings before he killed your second overlord). Your lings that you tried to backstab with then got cought out of position and it went to hell from there.
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Again you seem to think that a pool at 14 is early and should defend against anything. It isnt. It's focused on economy, but can still repell almost anything - i.e VERY strong opener. Maybe on some maps opening with 13 pool is more safe and you should maybe experiment with it.
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EPT
