EPTThere must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
TvP Marauder Cheese - Page 3
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ploy
United States416 Posts
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them. | ||
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Slick348
Canada26 Posts
On April 02 2010 09:56 nujgnoy wrote: I know you're a good player but that statement is definitely not accurate. A more accurate statement is: a PURE zealot army without charge will be stomped by a marauder army. This isn't practical since if the protoss has a mixed army of stalkers and sentries and zealots, marauders don't do so well. Why? Marauders have to slow the zealot to kite them. But, marauders don't deal good dps to zealots (10/shot). during the time the marauders are kiting and focusing the zealots, stalkers and sentries damage the marauders with bonus and normal damage. In real games times come when both armies have to engage each other, and when a clash happens, chargelots fight marauders very cost effectively. Not to mention sentries, colossi, and immortals. If your gonna put combination into it, what could we do if there's Siege tanks,Marine and Maurader stimmed, Medic, with some Vikings to deal with Colossi and land them when the jobs done. Oh and maybe 1 or two ghost with EMP just to make the battle now impossible for Protoss to win | ||
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Slick348
Canada26 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?) There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them. I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol. | ||
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
HT's are the key vs that army you just listed - the standard zealots/sentries/stalkers/immortals with HT's. that army alone counters that whole list you just mentioned. The main problem in TvP right now is variation, the other T units don't do anything to protoss armies (and i've tried alotta shit) and so relying on the marauder is the only thing possible right now. My experience with TvP is - if terran doesn't win within the first 15 mins he's most likely gonna lose the game, i dunno how other terran players feel - but i can't say strong enough how shit the other units actually are vs protoss (except the battle cruiser). If you've checked recent tournaments, terrans haven't been doing that great :S - i mean yes lucifron just won the tournament today, he was 1-1 vs dimaga then a defwin - and vs hasuobs he won 3-2 (was 0-2 down) - hasu could of taken it 3-0 if he kept his game face on. What i mean to say is - TvP i don't believe is swayed in the T favour at all, a week or 2 ago i would of said yeh, but it seems protoss players have become less stubborn and actually tech to HT's which annihilate terran armies given the mech route is not viable. | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:16 Slick348 wrote: If your gonna put combination into it, what could we do if there's Siege tanks,Marine and Maurader stimmed, Medic, with some Vikings to deal with Colossi and land them when the jobs done. Oh and maybe 1 or two ghost with EMP just to make the battle now impossible for Protoss to win I noted that Zs, stalkers, and sentries can counter mauds without the help of colossi and immortals. The situations we're describing is different because sentries, stalkers, and zealots are all from the gateway, whereas tanks, medic, and vikings come from 2 additional facilities. Also, the difference 1~2 colossi and immortals make is so much greater than the difference 1~2 tanks/medivacs/vikings make. Colossus hard counters bio with proper micro and immortals provide a timing attack opportunity for FEing terrans because it melts everything armored like the bunker. Sieged tanks can't be microed and without the ramp advantage they're not that difficult to kill. Vikings exist only to take down colossi, and they take heavy fire from stalkers. This is what I've experienced in plat TvP since the beta. But for all I know I might be wrong. I'll actually try mid/lategame focusing on mass marauder myself and see how it fares up in platinum TvP. Right now I highly doubt that this would favor the terran vs a standard though. | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:22 DeMusliM wrote: to the poster above - HT's are the key vs that army you just listed - the standard zealots/sentries/stalkers/immortals with HT's. that army alone counters that whole list you just mentioned. The main problem in TvP right now is variation, the other T units don't do anything to protoss armies (and i've tried alotta shit) and so relying on the marauder is the only thing possible right now. My experience with TvP is - if terran doesn't win within the first 15 mins he's most likely gonna lose the game, i dunno how other terran players feel - but i can't say strong enough how shit the other units actually are vs protoss (except the battle cruiser). Hit the nail on the head This is exactly how I feel. Cheap strategies aside, a terran can ONLY rely on marauders or massed battlecruisers. As the main of the army with marauders, the T has to win the game during the early/early-mid game with battlecruisers, yamato is hard countered by feedback and by the time you have enough BCs the protoss can macro 1.5 times your army. | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:22 Slick348 wrote: I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol. PlayXP tournaments features the top Korean players, such as Painkiller, Plot (aka Maka), Zeniowarra, and other well known players (Hyo, etc.). So I assure you the player's skills are at the top. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote: Welcome to every single platinum pvt edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder. If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible. Hence why I believe slow should be researchable. It's not like marauders would be bad without slow. They'd just take a lot more skill to micro and not completely dominate every single gateway unit. It's also a problem TvT, because if you don't get marauders you pretty much are stuck hiding behind bunkers hoping to god he doesn't break you because if your tank gets in range he can just chase it and kill it. TvZ I'd say the fact that maras attack faster, do more damage, and have more range than roaches is more than enough without the slow. The fact is, maras are kind of broken and don't require a high level of skill to use effectively, whereas fighting them takes an extraordinary amount of skill and even the best of the best can't do anything but hope they have enough units because they can't hit and run or anything micro-intensive. I'm a terran player. I almost refuse to get maras because I think they're completely broken and overpowered. Unfortunately you pretty much have to get them TvT because the other player has broken maras too, and they really make life so much easier for you in every matchup because they're so goddamn overpowered. This is why all top terrans mass marauder right now. | ||
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous. Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them. Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up need an ice pack? You sound really butthurt. People really need to stop complaining and start coming up with ideas of how to play the system, not on how to redesign it. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
all counter way too much and are way too strong as a unit alone. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:26 nujgnoy wrote: Hit the nail on the head This is exactly how I feel. Cheap strategies aside, a terran can ONLY rely on marauders or massed battlecruisers. As the main of the army with marauders, the T has to win the game during the early/early-mid game with battlecruisers, yamato is hard countered by feedback and by the time you have enough BCs the protoss can macro 1.5 times your army. Well then why the heck would Terrans be opposed to a Marauder nerf? That one unit is just too good. Spread it around a bit and improve other units, letting Terrans diversify their army. Why are Terrans relying on only Marauders for their anti-armoured needs, when they've got Siege Tanks, Vikings and Banshees to use? As long as Marauders keep winning Terrans games, keeping them at that 'magical' win %, you're going to be constantly pigeon-holed into using them, because every other option sucks. This isn't a L2P issue. Its one unit that can do everything out of the box and is really good at putting on pressure in the early game, single-handed, to give them enough advantage in the late game to win. Countering them early and getting enough breathing room just to expand out of his front door requires extraordinary lengths on the Protoss' part. If Terran players feel like its their only option, and everyone else feels like they can't stop it unless they pull some cheese tactic, why would anyone be opposed to some changes? Doesn't make any sense to me. | ||
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Slick348
Canada26 Posts
Also, the difference 1~2 colossi and immortals make is so much greater than the difference 1~2 tanks/medivacs/vikings make. Colossus hard counters bio with proper micro and immortals provide a timing attack opportunity for FEing terrans because it melts everything armored like the bunker. Sieged tanks can't be microed and without the ramp advantage they're not that difficult to kill. Vikings exist only to take down colossi, and they take heavy fire from stalkers. This is what I've experienced in plat TvP since the beta. But for all I know I might be wrong. I'll actually try mid/lategame focusing on mass marauder myself and see how it fares up in platinum TvP. Right now I highly doubt that this would favor the terran vs a standard though.[/QUOTE] Well if we're gonna talk about things all from the gateway and everything all from the barrack the Protoss still loses, because with EMP at their side protoss losses. The Marine and Maurader stim destroys practically everything before they get close with macro and plus with emp makes everything so much easier. Plus the cost that Protoss would be losing would be more that the cost of what terran would be losing. Plus the terran builds faster than protoss, it's only a matter of time before they lose. I'm pretty tired of typing, but please show me videos where protoss wins against a pro terran player... P.S. I'm not saying that i'm right here, i'm just posting what i think. But EMP BY FAR NEEDS SOME NERFING TO BE DONE! Should only take of magic and not shields. Terran units have a unit to counter every single one of protoss units without the use of emp, emp just makes everything 10X worst for protoss. | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:30 Floophead_III wrote: Hence why I believe slow should be researchable. It's not like marauders would be bad without slow. They'd just take a lot more skill to micro and not completely dominate every single gateway unit. It's also a problem TvT, because if you don't get marauders you pretty much are stuck hiding behind bunkers hoping to god he doesn't break you because if your tank gets in range he can just chase it and kill it. TvZ I'd say the fact that maras attack faster, do more damage, and have more range than roaches is more than enough without the slow. The fact is, maras are kind of broken and don't require a high level of skill to use effectively, whereas fighting them takes an extraordinary amount of skill and even the best of the best can't do anything but hope they have enough units because they can't hit and run or anything micro-intensive. I'm a terran player. I almost refuse to get maras because I think they're completely broken and overpowered. Unfortunately you pretty much have to get them TvT because the other player has broken maras too, and they really make life so much easier for you in every matchup because they're so goddamn overpowered. This is why all top terrans mass marauder right now. Dude... they really aren't overpowered.. and if they are, it's not nearly as much as what people are saying or terran would be dominating tournaments pretty easily. Like demuslim said, terran arent massing marauders because they are so good but more so because there are a lack of other quality options. | ||
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hellitsaboutme
Singapore118 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:32 Sunyveil wrote: need an ice pack? You sound really butthurt. People really need to stop complaining and start coming up with ideas of how to play the system, not on how to redesign it. People really need to stop thinking only about their races. However, I have to admit Maradeurs are not overpowered. The problem is that Terran doesn't have to diversify their strategy, they can only spam maradeurs all day long. That's totally wrong and its not how RTS games are played/made. There is obivous problem with Maradeurs in current stage. Sure it has to be changed. We don't see much interesting games from T imho. All they try to do is outmass. But I could say they are quite imbalanced in some way. It is very hard to get charge playing P. And you have to do some good micro as P. Whereas terran needs just stim-focus-run. Maradeurs and overall terran mechanics DEFINITELY REQUIRE CHANGE. | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:35 Bibdy wrote: Well then why the heck would Terrans be opposed to a Marauder nerf? That one unit is just too good. Spread it around a bit and improve other units, letting Terrans diversify their army. Why are Terrans relying on only Marauders for their anti-armoured needs, when they've got Siege Tanks, Vikings and Banshees to use? As long as Marauders keep winning Terrans games, keeping them at that 'magical' win %, you're going to be constantly pigeon-holed into using them, because every other option sucks. This isn't a L2P issue. Its one unit that can do everything out of the box and is really good at putting on pressure in the early game, single-handed, to give them enough advantage in the late game to win. Countering them early and getting enough breathing room just to expand out of his front door requires extraordinary lengths on the Protoss' part. If Terran players feel like its their only option, and everyone else feels like they can't stop it unless they pull some cheese tactic, why would anyone be opposed to some changes? Doesn't make any sense to me. It's not that Terrans want a homogenous play. It's just that people bring up how marauders are OP and they should be nerfed. But if Marauders are nerfed and no changes are made, TvP is in a very bad position. That's like nerfing immortals in PvZ but not doing anything else in another area to make up for the nerf. I honestly want to see more factory play, and I was glad the Thor received somewhat of a buff in TvZ. But the truth is that factory is too cost inefficient right now. I think ALL terran players who are sticking with terran from SCBW want a more viable factory play, because that's what we (at least I) fell in love with. But only nerfing mauds without any other action is too much. That's exactly what terrans don't want. | ||
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hellitsaboutme
Singapore118 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:39 ploy wrote: Dude... they really aren't overpowered.. and if they are, it's not nearly as much as what people are saying or terran would be dominating tournaments pretty easily. Like demuslim said, terran arent massing marauders because they are so good but more so because there are a lack of other quality options. That's the problem. Any unit in RTS game shouldn't be massed and shouldn't be efficient vs everything. I don't care what Demu says. He fights only for Terran favor and not overall game balance. That's not how progamers have to act. Shame on him | ||
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Slick348
Canada26 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:32 Sunyveil wrote: need an ice pack? You sound really butthurt. People really need to stop complaining and start coming up with ideas of how to play the system, not on how to redesign it. One of the things I'm talking about, come up with things to back up your statement and not just say stupid and pointless things like "sound's like you need an ice pack", grow up... Sometimes there has to be some changes if things are clearly unbalanced. If there's a counter it must be a hella hard to counter it with the terran barely even trying, things like someone trying extremely hard comparing for someone doing something extremely easy counts in the balance section as well just in case you didn't know. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:40 nujgnoy wrote: It's not that Terrans want a homogenous play. It's just that people bring up how marauders are OP and they should be nerfed. But if Marauders are nerfed and no changes are made, TvP is in a very bad position. That's like nerfing immortals in PvZ but not doing anything else in another area to make up for the nerf. I honestly want to see more factory play, and I was glad the Thor received somewhat of a buff in TvZ. But the truth is that factory is too cost inefficient right now. I think ALL terran players who are sticking with terran from SCBW want a more viable factory play, because that's what we (at least I) fell in love with. But only nerfing mauds without any other action is too much. That's exactly what terrans don't want. There have been several occasions where they make a change, realise it has a huge impact, and make another to compensate. They nerf SCV health, they slow down DT production. They buff Stalker damage, but reduce bonus damage from upgrades. They buff Barracks build time, they nerf Reaper build time. I think the bottom line is, when an army is capable of winning a game at a top level by spamming one unit, something has to change. I can't imagine we want to see or play a game like that. There'd be just as discussion if Zealots could steamroll through everything single-handed, but it turned out to be Protoss' 'only option'. Now that I think about it, that's actually what happened in the SC1 Beta, when they took away their speed, added the Citadul of Adun and slapped the upgrade on there. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Nerfing all of these units probably would create a more multidimensional game. We can all agree they're too strong, but you can't nerf one without nerfing the others to balance the game out. Roaches should be much weaker for their cost. Immortals shouldn't take less time to make than a stalker. Marauders shouldn't slow on hit, and definitely shouldn't cost less than a stalker when it can beat one at lower tech. | ||
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Slick348
Canada26 Posts
On April 02 2010 10:47 Floophead_III wrote: To be fair. It seems the general consensus is that the marauder, the roach, and the immortal are completely broken units, but they counter each other in such a way that it balances the game, but forces you into certain tech paths. Nerfing all of these units probably would create a more multidimensional game. We can all agree they're too strong, but you can't nerf one without nerfing the others to balance the game out. Roaches should be much weaker for their cost. Immortals shouldn't take less time to make than a stalker. Marauders shouldn't slow on hit, and definitely shouldn't cost less than a stalker when it can beat one at lower tech. Really don't see how the immortal is a overpowered unit when it can be countered by first tire units like the marine. Keep in mind that i'm a zerg player and not a Protoss player. I'm just on the topic on how every TVP match i seen terran won and i've seen a lot of matches. | ||
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