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On April 02 2010 09:14 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 08:56 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
exactly, and as you may know, mass zealots + sentries are pretty hard to hold off if you're only doing marauders if protoss is dumb enough to try and mass stalkers vs mass marauders its not really the terran players fault.
It is almost impossible if they are good with the force fields.
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They'll win one fight with the Sentries, but when they run out of energy versus a constant stream of Marauders from 2 bases (if they had any sense they'd FE since you sure as hell aren't getting anywhere near the Marauders in the early game) its a slowly losing battle.
You simply can't deal enough damage to the Marauders before they kill your Zealot wall. Then the rest of your army (Immortals, Sentries and/or Stalkers) will fall to pieces.
It goes back and forth for a while, with the Terran slowly winning. The moment he pushes far enough to take out the Protoss' expansion, its over.
Losing one fight with mass Marauders doesn't mean instant loss. It just means you made him spend precious energy just to fight you, and isn't going to have enough to repeat that as you keep pushing forward.
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On April 02 2010 09:19 Bibdy wrote:
They'll win one fight with the Sentries, but when they run out of energy versus a constant stream of Marauders from 2 bases (if they had any sense they'd FE since you sure as hell aren't getting anywhere near the Marauders in the early game) its a slowly losing battle.
You simply can't deal enough damage to the Marauders before they kill your Zealot wall. Then the rest of your army (Immortals, Sentries and/or Stalkers) will fall to pieces.
It goes back and forth for a while, with the Terran slowly winning. The moment he pushes far enough to take out the Protoss' expansion, its over.
Losing one fight with mass Marauders doesn't mean instant loss. It just means you made him spend precious energy just to fight you, and isn't going to have enough to repeat that as you keep pushing forward.
FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS! It's always a slowly losing battly on Protoss end, as i seen in all PVT pro matches
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They really should move the slow to at least a factory req upgrade or something. It's retardedly strong in all matchups, and basically negates the other player's micro ability. I don't like something that takes a skill and makes it worthless. Imagine if you couldn't dance around an FD push in BW. That's what fighting marauders is like. It reduces the skill requirement of the game and should be removed or at least delayed in the tech.
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On April 02 2010 09:22 Floophead_III wrote:
They really should move the slow to at least a factory req upgrade or something. It's retardedly strong in all matchups, and basically negates the other player's micro ability. I don't like something that takes a skill and makes it worthless. Imagine if you couldn't dance around an FD push in BW. That's what fighting marauders is like. It reduces the skill requirement of the game and should be removed or at least delayed in the tech. But if you move slow up to factory, the Terran player will be utterly unable to hold any sort of map control till tech 2. Could you imagine what top players could do if they knew the Terran player really didn't have any way to pressure them pre-factory?
I'm not convinced early Marauder is unstoppable, but assuming a nerf was indeed required: Perhaps if marauders required an Engineering Bay along with the Tech Lab to build? Or perhaps the Tech Lab itself required an Engineering bay.
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Well if they nerfed marauders they would have to boost mech, since marauders is lategametech for terrans atm as well. Forcefield is a very good counter to marauders, remember they are expensive and takes a long time to build, especially off 1rax.
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On April 02 2010 09:09 Slick348 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 08:56 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
How do they NOT counter Zealots or Archons??? Zealots and Archons can't even touch them especially if micro'd properly with marines. Especially once they have EMP in there you might as well say GG (didn't say to say GG, said you might as well lol). As well as the tanks long range and splash damage it's real hard for protoss to get close to Terran.
Jinro said that maud can "fight" them and that it doesn't "counter" them.
Marauder (Maud) damages a Z by 10 hitpoints with each shot. A Z can tank 15 shots (iirc). Z does 14 damage to Maud, so it takes less than 10 hits for a Maud to kill Z.
When you consider two units' relation to each other you can't consider other units. For example, colossi hard counters bio, but if you add vikings the colossi becomes hard countered. This doesn't mean bio counters colossi. This means colossi counters bio and viking counter colossi.
So a more appropriate logic would be Zealot counter marauder, zealot is countered by hellions, etc. rather than saying that marauder counters zealot when you have emp or hellions.
On April 02 2010 09:09 Slick348 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 08:56 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
How do they NOT counter Zealots or Archons??? Zealots and Archons can't even touch them especially if micro'd properly with marines. Especially once they have EMP in there you might as well say GG (didn't say to say GG, said you might as well lol). As well as the tanks long range and splash damage it's real hard for protoss to get close to Terran.
The latest PlayXP tournaments (Korean site tournaments whose info was posted in TL) had T lose to P many cases (some of them being BO3 = multiple T loss to P per case)
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Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
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Forcefield is a iffy counter to marauders as the range to put down a forcefield isn't THAT big and marauders with their speed and range can dance back quite well. On a map with a open middle ground it's rediculously hard to win the expansion game as protoss vs terran as they got such an easy way to fight in the middle.
The problem with marauders is that they are a the best kiting unit in the game with stim, which has a measly cost for marauders. A range or speed nerf would make this kiting much harder and would mostly affect the matchup against protoss without making them too weak against zerg imo.
Toss just has no hard counters for them (1 immortal costs 3 marauders, voidrays die too hard against marines) and can't win vs a proper FE marauder build imo in this patch.
The most annoying thing personally I find is that the marauder player can choose his battles much easier, if terran is outnumbered he can fall back and if toss isn't careful he will lose zealots if they get too far from the immortals. If toss however want's to fall back a stim later you lost 5+ units.
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On April 02 2010 09:19 Bibdy wrote:
They'll win one fight with the Sentries, but when they run out of energy versus a constant stream of Marauders from 2 bases (if they had any sense they'd FE since you sure as hell aren't getting anywhere near the Marauders in the early game) its a slowly losing battle.
You simply can't deal enough damage to the Marauders before they kill your Zealot wall. Then the rest of your army (Immortals, Sentries and/or Stalkers) will fall to pieces.
It goes back and forth for a while, with the Terran slowly winning. The moment he pushes far enough to take out the Protoss' expansion, its over.
Losing one fight with mass Marauders doesn't mean instant loss. It just means you made him spend precious energy just to fight you, and isn't going to have enough to repeat that as you keep pushing forward.
A healthy mix of gateway units + immortal will destroy a marauder force VERY cost efficiently. An immortal can kill a marauder in 3 hits, whereas it has hardened shield. If marauders target fire the immortal, it's under heavy fire from all units. If marauders ignore the immortal, it's under heavy fire from the immortal.
I'm not saying 1 immortal will destroy an entire force of marauders. I'm saying, a 3000 resources' worth of mixed protoss army has devastatingly destroyed a 3000 resources' worth of marauder heavy army in platinum games.
The problem of course is getting to that healthy army because there's a timing window if the P goes 1gatecorerobo which is the typical protoss build right now. For this, the protoss shouldn't 1gatecore straight into robo, rather tech safely with 1gatecoregate with some sentries, zealots and stalkers.
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It's a slow, painful loss for Protoss vs this kind of rush tactic. You can fight it off for a bit, but you are on your heels for so long that the Terran can expand and retain map control, and slowly break into your natural (if you even get it up and running).
Having trouble with this myself.
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yah a passive slow has no place in an rts game
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dont change maradeurs, since im trying to change from p tot it would make me rage after all p nerfs =( plz dont!
yes they are strong, but atm its anyway Z > T > P so... start with nerfing queen first or make z units more expensive before you try to change something else.
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On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote:
Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
I know you're a good player but that statement is definitely not accurate. A more accurate statement is:
a PURE zealot army without charge will be stomped by a marauder army.
This isn't practical since if the protoss has a mixed army of stalkers and sentries and zealots, marauders don't do so well. Why? Marauders have to slow the zealot to kite them. But, marauders don't deal good dps to zealots (10/shot). during the time the marauders are kiting and focusing the zealots, stalkers and sentries damage the marauders with bonus and normal damage.
In real games times come when both armies have to engage each other, and when a clash happens, chargelots fight marauders very cost effectively. Not to mention sentries, colossi, and immortals.
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On April 02 2010 09:51 nujgnoy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 09:19 Bibdy wrote:
They'll win one fight with the Sentries, but when they run out of energy versus a constant stream of Marauders from 2 bases (if they had any sense they'd FE since you sure as hell aren't getting anywhere near the Marauders in the early game) its a slowly losing battle.
You simply can't deal enough damage to the Marauders before they kill your Zealot wall. Then the rest of your army (Immortals, Sentries and/or Stalkers) will fall to pieces.
It goes back and forth for a while, with the Terran slowly winning. The moment he pushes far enough to take out the Protoss' expansion, its over.
Losing one fight with mass Marauders doesn't mean instant loss. It just means you made him spend precious energy just to fight you, and isn't going to have enough to repeat that as you keep pushing forward. A healthy mix of gateway units + immortal will destroy a marauder force VERY cost efficiently. An immortal can kill a marauder in 3 hits, whereas it has hardened shield. If marauders target fire the immortal, it's under heavy fire from all units. If marauders ignore the immortal, it's under heavy fire from the immortal. I'm not saying 1 immortal will destroy an entire force of marauders. I'm saying, a 3000 resources' worth of mixed protoss army has devastatingly destroyed a 3000 resources' worth of marauder heavy army in platinum games. The problem of course is getting to that healthy army because there's a timing window if the P goes 1gatecorerobo which is the typical protoss build right now. For this, the protoss shouldn't 1gatecore straight into robo, rather tech safely with 1gatecoregate with some sentries, zealots and stalkers.
I don't think the big issue is that you CAN'T defeat the all-Marauder army, it's that you need a mix of a bunch of different units to defeat an army made up of massing a single Tier 1.5 unit, and even then you still have to micro well and have the right proportions of units, while the Terran is probably just kiting and focus firing.
How about the Marauder's slow is not as great when built by default (maybe half as effective as now), and to get the full effect (like it is now), requires an upgrade?
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On April 02 2010 09:54 d_so wrote:
yah a passive slow has no place in an rts game
Just wait for a replay of Moon showing proper dryadmarauder vs zealot micro.
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On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote:
Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
??? Arent you suppose to be the dude who's known for usin forcefield good? lol
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The whole nerf marauder slow thing is just pathetic, I have seen many protosses deal with it. It is just the heat of the moment when you are loosing the game and the marauders seem op because you cant counter them correctly.
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On April 02 2010 10:01 Kare wrote:
The whole nerf marauder slow thing is just pathetic, I have seen many protosses deal with it. It is just the heat of the moment when you are loosing the game and the marauders seem op because you cant counter them correctly.
You've seen it. You haven't actually tried it.
You need three different types of units to take on a cluster of Marauders. Not one. Not two. Three. There is no direct "oh, just get a couple of these and smash them into a pulp" unit. You need to
A) Stop them kiting
B) Actually kill them once you stop them kiting
C) Give them something to shoot at which isn't going to cripple your ability to kill them
To satisfy A, you need to use Sentries to Force Field, which have limited energy.
To satisfy B, you need Immortals or Stalkers to gun them down, and do a half-decent amount of damage to them.
To satisfy C, you need a wall of Zealots. Something to make them do half-damage to while you gun them down.
If any one of those elements fails (out of energy, no Stalkers or Immortals to do decent damage or run out of Zealots) you either stand your ground and get blown up, or try and retreat and lose half of what you have left.
If the Terran constantly pushes with Marauders i.e. set rally points for 6 Barracks straight at your base, you can't keep up with the production, the constant back and forth, nor have the energy from constantly spawning 100 gas caster units to continuously take them on.
If you do the math, Marauders can take on Immortals cost-for-cost, even with the shield mechanic. Its not as simple as "Oh, just get a couple of Immortals and lol at him".
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On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote:
Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
THANK YOU ORB!! Even if the zealots were able to get a couple of shots on the Mauraders they still would destroy the zealots. Seen a video of yours btw, wanted to see you go against a Terran player using Toss and see how you handle them. Find zealots are only used to absorb damage lately. Even though if they do destroy some of the opposing teams units they still lost more money than the terran.
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EPT
