EPTOn March 20 2010 18:46 CharlieMurphy wrote:
actually, don't archons do bonus to light? (to be fair archons suck ass though)
actually, don't archons do bonus to light? (to be fair archons suck ass though)
It's biological, so even better.
ZvP: Hard time against 9-10min immortal attack - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
NotJack
United States737 Posts
It's biological, so even better. | ||
|
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On March 20 2010 18:46 CharlieMurphy wrote: actually, don't archons do bonus to light? (to be fair archons suck ass though) no, biological | ||
|
MapleLeafSirup
Germany950 Posts
if the robo is a little later but therefore the 2nd gate and maybe the 3rd gate are earlier, you have to mix in roaches. i cannot recommend muta techs but some zerg users seem to be succesful with it. general advice: try to face his army on an open battlefield. any narrow path will be really dangerous against well-placed force fields. expand your creep with your queen so that your units are faster which makes flanks more effective | ||
|
Blackjackbob
Canada164 Posts
After that I just play counter the protoss' unit comp. I try to get and overseer or two in my base to snipe any observers which I can sometimes keep them a little in the dark when it comes to mutas or hydra tech. Another thing I will sometimes do is move like 6 or so overlords over top of the building (hydra or spire) so that in case they a quick glimpse they might not be able to actually see it. The important thing here (I guess its the same with every game though) is knowing what he is doing. Because it really comes down to countering his units. With that said, try using the changeling. That little bugger has given me tons of info essentially for free. | ||
|
BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On March 20 2010 15:38 Antpile wrote: You know, everyone says this, but I find zerglings by themselves to be so suck vs toss that I need a bazillion of them to counter any push involving a decent number of zealots. While they are cheap, they also take up a ton of larvae so you can't drone whore near as hard as you need to in the beginning of the game if you are massing the crap out of speedlings. The idea is that zealots are slow, so you should have a scout in front of his ramp to see when he moves out. Drone whore until he moves out, then switch to mass speedlings. With FE + fast 2 queens, you can get plenty of drones by the time he moves out. However, if toss goes for straight zealots while teching to immortal, then you will need something else other than speedlings, either spine crawlers or roaches. However most toss will not make pure zeal, and will opt to mix in stalker/sentry, mainly sentry, so that they can block their ramp with force field. If they do this, you should be able to beat the push with pure speedling. I've tried beating a 10-12 zeal + 1-2 immortal push with pure speedling, it doesn't really work too well | ||
|
Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
-13 to 15 pool -get some lings and expo -get lingspeed when you get the gas -get that 2nd gas and get lair -make 1-2 crawlers in your main (your natural has no creep cause it's not done) -When lair pops make a spire -Their first immortal pops around now, they should be moving out -Backstab with those speedlings! It's amazing how many players forget this beautiful technique. -Think about 9 pool speed vs 2 gate zealots in BW worked. Same general concept. -Pump tons and tons of speedlings, you don't want roaches vs this push at all. I'd say roaches in general are not useful in ZvP til midgame since it makes you so vulnerable to this push (with the exception of any FE). -Either one of 2 things will happen, he goes back to deal with your backstab (which btw you should go for pylons to shut down his production! It forces probes to be pulled and really really messes up a protoss player) or he goes for the kill and hopes you don't have enough to hold him off. Just dance around with speedlings for as long as you can. -If he goes for your natural you can try to pick off some units but it's ok to let it fall because you're killing everything in his base with lings so you don't need it to win. -If he goes for your main just surround with super fast speedlings and you should be able to hold him off, you have the creepspeed bonus and flanking advantage which means you can do a lot of damage. -When he hits you is when your spire should pop so make nothing but mutas. In the worst case scenario you'll lose a ton of drones/queens/and a hatch and be stuck with almost nothing at the end of that push BUT you'll have lings wrecking his main and mutas on the way there so you win. Pretty much that's how it works. | ||
|
Antpile
United States213 Posts
On March 21 2010 02:07 Floophead_III wrote: I actually did some testing with my friend and the help of TorcH and we discovered that it's not a hard push to beat. I don't know the exact BO my friend used but the basic idea was this: -13 to 15 pool -get some lings and expo -get lingspeed when you get the gas -get that 2nd gas and get lair -make 1-2 crawlers in your main (your natural has no creep cause it's not done) -When lair pops make a spire -Their first immortal pops around now, they should be moving out -Backstab with those speedlings! It's amazing how many players forget this beautiful technique. -Think about 9 pool speed vs 2 gate zealots in BW worked. Same general concept. -Pump tons and tons of speedlings, you don't want roaches vs this push at all. I'd say roaches in general are not useful in ZvP til midgame since it makes you so vulnerable to this push (with the exception of any FE). -Either one of 2 things will happen, he goes back to deal with your backstab (which btw you should go for pylons to shut down his production! It forces probes to be pulled and really really messes up a protoss player) or he goes for the kill and hopes you don't have enough to hold him off. Just dance around with speedlings for as long as you can. -If he goes for your natural you can try to pick off some units but it's ok to let it fall because you're killing everything in his base with lings so you don't need it to win. -If he goes for your main just surround with super fast speedlings and you should be able to hold him off, you have the creepspeed bonus and flanking advantage which means you can do a lot of damage. -When he hits you is when your spire should pop so make nothing but mutas. In the worst case scenario you'll lose a ton of drones/queens/and a hatch and be stuck with almost nothing at the end of that push BUT you'll have lings wrecking his main and mutas on the way there so you win. Pretty much that's how it works. I'd prefer a way to hold this push off that doesn't require me to sacrifice my base to do it though. | ||
|
MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
IDK sometimes you cant have your cake and eat it too? I mean by all means you could turtle up and make sure u dont die to his first push, but then your behind for the rest of the game. Its one of those risks v rewards situations, as all SC2 matches are. | ||
|
Viruuus
Germany451 Posts
| ||
|
Artrey
Germany270 Posts
I am still unsure if you can beat it at all, given the right protoss timing, unless he clusters his Zealots too much (so that banelings work) and fails with the force fields. Never beaten a protoss with only Speed-/Banelings when he used force fields and positioning properly. If you did, replays please. | ||
|
Viruuus
Germany451 Posts
| ||
|
Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
On March 17 2010 11:42 T3mpus wrote: Hi there! Help..! My ELO in Platinum right now is 1500 and what I do vs toss is either fake roach mass speedlings or fake roach muta ling. Basically all you do for fake roach lings is do the standard build order for roaches and produce 3 roaches to deny scouting at your choke. From there get speedlings with +1 armor (Important!) and wait for his immortal push. You'll destroy him and then have more than enough units left over to push through his base. Also, in doing this strat you will be able to get an early expo as well as a lair and any T2 tech that you want in case you feel the need to switch to something. Personally when I do this strat I am usually the aggressor but you could do just as well if you let him come to you. Just make sure you are always scouting because he may send an observer to your base that will find the lings and then switch to a good ling counter. When you muta ling you basically do the same thing just produce muta's (Duh) Also, once you have around 4-5 mutas you should be harrassing his probes and forcing static defense. Just be ready for a HT switch and switch tech to whatever will counter his army. (For instance if he is heavy on stalkers/sentries you should focus on ling/roach since you'll have 2 bases to his 1 you can really out produce and win at macroing) The key component to these strategies, like in all other upper level SC play, is scouting. Always know what your opponent is doing and you will go far. | ||
|
Slunk
Germany768 Posts
On March 21 2010 19:40 Perseverance wrote: The key component to these strategies, like in all other upper level SC play, is scouting. Always know what your opponent is doing and you will go far. How am I supposed to do this? I am a gold zerg player and I rape every zerg/terran on my level and slightly above, but protoss are hard as hell. If I rush for mutas, he just attacks me while my mutas are hatching, so I can defend but lose a craplod of stuff or even my natural. Also my economy is crappy because of the tech and the larvae spent on lings in order not to die. Any kind of ground units just get countered by immortals and/or colossi, because they are so damn cost effective and zealots are cheapass blockers made of hardcore. Any intelligent use of sentries seals my loss, especially on maps like scrap station there everything is so tight. Also the toss is allways prepared because of maphax obsevers while I sit in the dark. Am I missing something huge? Are there any ground army unit mixes that dont melt to the protoss robo units? | ||
|
Viruuus
Germany451 Posts
| ||
|
Slunk
Germany768 Posts
On March 22 2010 04:10 Viruuus wrote: youre missing, that speedlings own immortals, banelings own zealots, so that combo wins vs the first push. And you can easily get mutas out before he has colossi, since colossi are further down the techtree compared to immortals. How do banelings own zealots? If I am not mistaken, you need 6-7 banelings to kill a zealot. Even if you kill like 4 zealots with 7 baneling, this is still a pretty bad trade. | ||
|
Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
What you'll see in this replay: My standard start up of striking a conversation to try and get my opponent to forget something Fake Roach Warren with early lings at choke to deny scouting/early expo for mass ling production Decide midway through not to get +1 armor based on the timing of my attack Him see my speedlings with an observer, but not being able to do anything with that information in time. And finally, me cheese through his zelot wall due to ling pathing (Is that here to stay or will blizz change it?) I Hope this helps you with your struggles against protoss http://www.mediafire.com/?idqzwnmimnz | ||
|
Icx
Belgium853 Posts
It's not your average timing push. Basicly, P makes 2-3 gates and does some early agression with zealots, I almost have to go roaches, because lings don't cut it. Then after that I try to tech as fast as possible to lair, get something else, but then a bit afterwards he just pushes in with like 6 zealots - 4immortals - 6 stalkers. And i'm at a loss of what to do, roaches/lings get owned, because I just cannot get trough to the immortals, muta's come out to late (they basicly pop when he arrives, but not enough to fight off the stalkers, and so on. (I'm in bronze, and currently that is the only thing I lose to and have like no clue on how to handle except for some cheesy roach rush/speedling rush so he doesn't get so far) | ||
|
Mutaahh
Netherlands859 Posts
On March 25 2010 05:53 FictionJV wrote: I have similar problems atm and I'm a bit at a loss of what to do. It's not your average timing push. Basicly, P makes 2-3 gates and does some early agression with zealots, I almost have to go roaches, because lings don't cut it. Then after that I try to tech as fast as possible to lair, get something else, but then a bit afterwards he just pushes in with like 6 zealots - 4immortals - 6 stalkers. And i'm at a loss of what to do, roaches/lings get owned, because I just cannot get trough to the immortals, muta's come out to late (they basicly pop when he arrives, but not enough to fight off the stalkers, and so on. (I'm in bronze, and currently that is the only thing I lose to and have like no clue on how to handle except for some cheesy roach rush/speedling rush so he doesn't get so far) I'd say play more aggressive, keep him busy, delay his tech. Roaches are for harras until immortals arive imo | ||
|
FREEloss_ca
Canada603 Posts
| ||
|
UdderChaos
United Kingdom707 Posts
On March 25 2010 08:41 FREEloss_ca wrote: Just mass speedlings with your roaches and attack from both sides. It's suprising how many people JUST pump roaches, find themselves with not enough gas, but extra minerals, but then DON"T spend those extra minerals on lings. A group of 20+ lings with your first 8+ roaches will counter perfectly. Attack from the front with roaches and then bring the lings up the rear to take out the immortals. This is so true. I'm 1st in gold, pretty sure about to go into plat, and i had real trouble with this push. I used to just pump roaches like mad and hope my muta tech was up, but now i realise you just mix in lings and probelm solved. Scout him, seem what balance of untis he has, ie how many imortals, if he has lots of imortals get more lings, if he only has a few make few lings and lots of roaches. Also try and get a realtively early expand, play defensive, and get muta tech out. | ||
| ||
