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Hi there!
I am placed 6th in copper league and trying to move up. I manage ZvZ and ZvT quite well but I have had hard time with Protoss. Transfer from early game to mid-game is very hard for me. My standard BO in ZvP match up is "roach pressure":
10 Overlord
13 Pool
14 Gas
15 Overlord
15 Queen
17 Zergling
18 Roach Warren
18 Zergling
19 Zergling
20 Larvae Injection
20 Overlord
20 Roach
21 Roach
22 Roach
23 Roach
24 Roach
25 Larvae Injection
Continue Roach Production
The build is farily good, gives me some edge in early game and it allows an opportunity to make an expansion after roach harassment. Only problem is that when Protoss gets the Robotic facility, adds immortals to its army and pushes around 8-10mins I am pretty much gg.
Here is a replay, I hope you will get my point:
http://www.mediafire.com/?3njuyyighzw
So I would like to ask for a few things.
When I scout or assume villain is building the Robo and moving to immortals, how should I adjust?
- Should I make an expansion with another queen and try to outproduce him using still roaches?
- Should I go lair as fast as I can and move to Hydras?
- Muta???
- Should I go lair and upgrade Roaches?
Lair as fast as could --> Hydras seems to be the best option but I feel I am always late and Protoss runs over me.
Making an expansion and lairing at the same time feels too riskya and economically consuming at the critical moment while reducing my army production.
Help..!
GL
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immortals pretty much hard counter roaches, so if it were me i'd just stop roach production and switch to speedlings. you need to tech to lair at some point anyways, and i've found that with 15gas lair at first 100 gas you'll never have enough hydras to fight off the first push, so speedlings are pretty much a requirement even if you do switch to hydras after roaches.
also if i were to modify your build order i'd get lair and my second gas started before i start roach production.
alternatively try skipping roaches, going straight for lair, and expanding after you've got like 10 hydras or pushed back his first attack. my P opponents have pretty much attacked as soon as i put down my natural expansion (i don't FE zvp), but as long as you survive it you should be ahead, since they can't really pressure you with a ton of units AND expand at the same time.
what i basically do is 14 pool, 15 gas, 15 ovie, queen when pool is done, lair when queen is done and take second gas, ling speed at 100 gas, and then put down hydra den when lair is done. just keep a pair of lings on his ramp at all times to be sure when he moves out, with larvae injection you can afford to power drones almost nonstop and just make lings when you see him move out. i don't really know the exact timing when i start making hydras, but i stop drone production around 26ish supply and start making lings, then hydras when the den is finished. remember to power drones again from 2xqueens when your natural hatchery is up, i always end up with like 100 drones and triple my opponents income by the end of the game :3 try and take your third as soon as he takes his natural, but i don't think that keeping 1 base ahead of P is nearly as important as it is in BW.
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I dont like your opening, you have late lair, and a lot of roaches too early. I use this in platinum and has give me quite good results (28 ranked nowadays):
10 Over
14 Pool
17 Over
17 Roach Warren
16 Queen
18 gas ( these 3 things are at the same time, the roach queen gas)
17 Ling
18 Hatch at Expo
3 Drones on gas as soon as it pops
Make only drones (Overlord at 24 when the first larvae injection pops)
@100 gas ling speed
@100 next gas Lair
2nd gas
Start making like 4 roaches or 5
make a ton of lings (normally when the 2nd larvae injection pops)
His push should arrive just before your lair finishes, defend with queens a lot of lings and your 5 roaches. The number you need to defend it its crucial, normally 20 lings and 5 roaches plus 2 queens are enough, save queens mana to heal roaches or the queens.
If he expands, make more drones now and the 3rd gas in order to make 2 evo and upgrade missle + carpace
If he doesnt, Hydra Den and start roach + hydra + ling non stop beacuse there will be a 2nd push with a colossus that if you defend you have won.
This build fends off everything if you do it properly.
Vs 2 Gate:
You have your early roach and you can delay lair and ling speed (dont even need it) for roaches to push while getting more drones.
Vs 1 Gate Starport:
If he goes Phoenix you have 2 queens that should be enough till hydras are out.
If he goes Void Ray he will be at your base with 2 void rays at 7:45, your first hydras should pop at 8:10 or so, thats 25 game seconds that you need to hold off, i recommend saving some mana for queens whenever you get to lair in order to make each queen heal the other, maybe you lose one of them, no problem he has no ground army and you have hydras.
If he goes immortal push you can defend with your roaches and ling speed till your hydras are out, if he delays it, it's hydra roach ling vs 1 colossus 2 immortals and some zealots, you have more than enough units at that point and he is making an all in because he cant take his expo if he makes the colossus.
If he makes the immortals but expoes instead of pushing you can pump drone of 2 base 2 queen and upgrade properly. Hydra roach combo with upgrades melts protoss army, you can also make a spire at this point if you like the muta transition and skip the hydras instead.
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You should study the replays from Liquidbition or w/e it's called. Ret does a really nice and pretty easy to execute Roach build which allows for good economy and lots of roaches. With proper timing and positionining, you can own the Immortal push with even pure roaches.
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On March 17 2010 12:16 NonFactor wrote:
You should study the replays from Liquidbition or w/e it's called. Ret does a really nice and pretty easy to execute Roach build which allows for good economy and lots of roaches. With proper timing and positionining, you can own the Immortal push with even pure roaches.
I dont recommend this, yeah ret does great in those games, but the game where he is fast pushed with immortals (3rd one i think) he get totally owned, because roaches are very bad against immortals. Speedlings are far more effective and you ar going to need them in the long run, even thoung you go for hydra-roach, if you expand properly you are going to have a lot of minerals and no gas, thats a ton of speed lings that can be used to harras, i like a lot the typicall nydus in main base and only send lings in it and when he reinforces you take the expo with your hydra roach army, it is quite effective
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Thank you very much for the answers! I will try both builds and post a replay if I succeed with them.
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im pretty sure the reason ret went 14 pool is because he expected standard play. If he would have got proxied i'm pretty sure he would have lost. I usually 13 pool, and vs proxy it can be pretty rough. I think 14 might be too late especially with chrono on a 2 gate.
also the reason the immortals aren't effective vs ret (except the games he loses) is because of the amount of pressure he applies forcing cannons and taking a 3rd. The game on KR was an example of how he didn't pressure enough and tried to take a 3rd and paid for it by losing.
I think mutas are a really good follow up because the protoss isn't going to have gas for a stargate/pheonix if they are going for early immortals and they are going to have at least 1 sentry so I'm thinking you can either pressure a ton and take 3rd or get a quicker lair which is what i'd do and get mutas because they are extremely good vs P and they have a bitch of a time trying to defend both sides. You just need to get your 3rd and 4th gas earlier if you're going spire is all.
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I've given up using roaches vs P. They are countered by immortals, collosus and anything in the air. The only thing they are good against are zealots, and really they're not even all that good honestly, it is just that you can mass them faster than the protoss can mass his units.
I strongly prefer to go speedling, and then pay due diligence and scout with them. There's plenty of time to throw down a roach den after your second expansion is up and toss out a couple dozen roaches when you know has no direct counter for them at that time and your economy is rocking. Plus you can afford the upgrades at that point.
But usually if I see a robo bay I go mutas/ling, and if I see anything else I go roach/ling/hydra or some such combination in the mid game. Protoss seems to have a really hard time with that in my divisions.
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I tried Rauks build based on ling/hydra. My opponent was quite poor though, but please, plug some of my leaks with Zerg and give me some feedback about accomplishing his buildorder and about my macro mngmt. Zerg Macro tips are welcome. Am I making my 2nd expansion too late btw?
Here is the replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?ooyzndmukzx
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I cant seem to win against this anymore. It doesnt even matter if they go immortal stalker or immortal zealot or a mix they just walk over me all day. 
Im rank #4 gold btw.
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Im top10ish platinum in europe, and i think the trick is to go expand on around 20, get 2nd queen insta, and then just check what hes doing and counter that until you can mass mutas.
If he goes zealots/sentries, get banelings, if he goes phoenix or voidray or mass stalkers, get hydras, if he goes immortals, you autowin.
no matter what your opponent goes, you always also add speedlings (from the 2nd 100 gas you have, except vs a big zealot force, you wanna go baneling nest first sometimes). With this build you simply cannot get overpowered before the midgame, and then its up to you to do whatever fits.
Mass mutas is very strong, especially on maps with alot of cliffs and where you can fly from the enemies natural to his main quickly, but groundunits take quite a bit longer to go back and forth.
Hydras/roaches/speedlings must be mixed with corruptors vs the colossi at some point, but with alot of upgrades this is a very good mix too. Getting your overseer out every single game, as soon as you can really afford it, is crucial too.
Note, that i almost never build roaches...they just suck, except for vs 3gate
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so... you're making roaches against immortals >.I'd recommend u using the BO the Battle offered, that's exactly the one I do it works pretty well (only diff I do 13 pool ;P).
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From what I've seen top players do, and from my own experience, you have two options once you scout a 1gate-tech -> immortals build:
-stay on 1 base, fast-tech to lair, get speedlings + roaches + muta or infestors
-fast expand, get 2 queens ASAP, drone whore until he moves out, counter the push with just a few roaches (like 3-5) and mass speedling, then go muta.
Btw, collosus does not counter roaches very well if you add corruptors (see Ret v Infernal on LT), so roach + corruptor is a great mid- or late-game army if protoss doesn't get any immortals.
DIMAGA counters 1base mass immortals with 1base infestors, it's really neat, you should check out his reps v Goodgameru from the SC2TV.RU tournament #2
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From a P point of view, Roaches are currently the strategy that gives me the easiest time. I know they are easy to just mass and A-move but Immortals destroy them so much it makes it ridiculous...
My problem is actually combinations of lings/muta/hydralisks - P have NOTHING that deals bonus damage against light armor... Only phoenix, and these lose a lot of harass power once Z gets hydra...
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On March 18 2010 03:29 zazen wrote:
From a P point of view, Roaches are currently the strategy that gives me the easiest time. I know they are easy to just mass and A-move but Immortals destroy them so much it makes it ridiculous...
My problem is actually combinations of lings/muta/hydralisks - P have NOTHING that deals bonus damage against light armor... Only phoenix, and these lose a lot of harass power once Z gets hydra...
thats true, but zealots are still pretty god damn strong vs zerg ground and so are colossi 
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I found the key to defend immortal rush is to get second queen ASAP pump drones, get 3rd hatch. Roach warren in case of mass zealots and tech to mutas. If you cant manage to get mutas before immortal get mass lings/roaches
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I found that Roaches with their Speed Upgrade are actually not that bad against Immortals if you can get in a nice Flank/Surround. No more Immortal-Dancing...
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You can break the immortal push with speedlings only, while teching to spire. Just scout well and catch the protoss in an area as open as possible. He won't have enough sentries to build an efficient wall to cover everything so if you do a good surround with your speedlings, his push will get destroyed or severely crippled and you will finish him with ease.
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On March 18 2010 17:51 Sauron wrote:
You can break the immortal push with speedlings only, while teching to spire. Just scout well and catch the protoss in an area as open as possible. He won't have enough sentries to build an efficient wall to cover everything so if you do a good surround with your speedlings, his push will get destroyed or severely crippled and you will finish him with ease.
You know, everyone says this, but I find zerglings by themselves to be so suck vs toss that I need a bazillion of them to counter any push involving a decent number of zealots. While they are cheap, they also take up a ton of larvae so you can't drone whore near as hard as you need to in the beginning of the game if you are massing the crap out of speedlings.
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On March 18 2010 03:35 Viruuus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2010 03:29 zazen wrote:
From a P point of view, Roaches are currently the strategy that gives me the easiest time. I know they are easy to just mass and A-move but Immortals destroy them so much it makes it ridiculous...
My problem is actually combinations of lings/muta/hydralisks - P have NOTHING that deals bonus damage against light armor... Only phoenix, and these lose a lot of harass power once Z gets hydra... thats true, but zealots are still pretty god damn strong vs zerg ground and so are colossi
actually, don't archons do bonus to light? (to be fair archons suck ass though)
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EPT
