EPTBring the zerglings to take the auto fire and destroy everything w/ the banelings. They are dead nasty again'st anything that doesn't have range.
Most likely they have stalkers as well which is why you avoid the autofire.
ZvP: Hard time against 9-10min immortal attack - Page 3
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t3hw0lf
United States45 Posts
Bring the zerglings to take the auto fire and destroy everything w/ the banelings. They are dead nasty again'st anything that doesn't have range. Most likely they have stalkers as well which is why you avoid the autofire. | ||
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Antpile
United States213 Posts
On March 25 2010 09:13 t3hw0lf wrote: I know this will be a short post, but will some Zerg players build banelings. They are dead nasty against anything really. you should come in w/ 14zerglings and 14banelings. Hotkey the zerglings to 1 and the banelings to 2. Bring the zerglings to take the auto fire and destroy everything w/ the banelings. They are dead nasty again'st anything that doesn't have range. Most likely they have stalkers as well which is why you avoid the autofire. zealots, sentries and buildings are the only units they'd be doing decent damage too this early. They do pretty crappy damage to anything not light and not a building. | ||
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splcer
United States166 Posts
only against toss | ||
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UdderChaos
United Kingdom707 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On March 25 2010 20:40 UdderChaos wrote: On second thought i actually cannot win this matchup now, toss just seems so OP. Lings don't really work as he can just sentry his ramp, and it seems that in sc2 toss can just go all the tech they want, mass pheonix with 2-3colssi and sentires, stalkers, zealots imortals, dam near everything, and nothing i try beats it. If i try and mix my untis i loose, if i try and mass any one unit i loose, i just can't win this matchup at the moment at all. Any tips? Don't use lings to try and attack him in his base -_- use lings as defense for when he attacks you. And don't use only lings, you need a mix of ling/roach until you get spire up. A very rough guide for countering toss units: More zealot/sentry -> you make more roaches (or hydras if you have a den) More stalker/immortal -> you make more lings If he goes robo-bay -> get mutas If he goes stargate -> get hydras If you see colossus -> get corruptors | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On March 25 2010 09:13 t3hw0lf wrote: I know this will be a short post, but will some Zerg players build banelings. They are dead nasty against anything really. you should come in w/ 14zerglings and 14banelings. Hotkey the zerglings to 1 and the banelings to 2. Bring the zerglings to take the auto fire and destroy everything w/ the banelings. They are dead nasty again'st anything that doesn't have range. Most likely they have stalkers as well which is why you avoid the autofire. If the toss player isn't paying attention to his choke in the early game, a zerg player can very easily bust it open with banelings and then clean up with speedlings. Even if you can't break his choke with the banelings, you can still contain him very easily with the banelings, allowing you to expand. The problem for toss is that banelings totally trash both zealots and sentries (both have light armor). The only early game toss unit that does not have light armor is the stalker, and we all know how good those are. Frankly, I'm surprised that more zerg don't abuse baneling/ling in the early game against toss. Toss really don't have a particularly good answer for banelings early on because their backbone early game units are zealots -- light-armored, melee units. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On March 25 2010 23:58 BlasiuS wrote: A very rough guide for countering toss units: More zealot/sentry -> you make more roaches (or hydras if you have a den) More stalker/immortal -> you make more lings Sometime i prefer to make roach rather than hydras because hydras are fucking slow. Unless you use them to defend. 2 roaches 1 hydra seems like a very good ratio. For glings, definitely don't cut roach production. Glings are just too weak to do any decent of damage to immortals (but does good against stalker. It's just we see them way less often). | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
Also try to use your speedlings to kill the proxy pylon he builds to get more units to his army. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
15 pool (unless on a small map like Steppes then it's 13) 17 gas 16 ovie 16 queen 18 ling 18 hatch at natural Ling speed at first 100 gas Lair at next 100 gas I just stay on about 6 lings total if the protoss is expanding and pump pure drones. as soon as lair is done I make a spire. by now I'm on four gas and still drone pumping. When the spire is about a quarter done I pump out another 12-14 speedlings as the immortal timing push usually comes right before the spire is done. I use these units to delay the immortal push (which seems to come no matter what despite me not building roaches, as I've completely delayed all scouting thus far). I actually don't have enough speeldings to hold off the push, but it buys time until around 6 mutas pop and rape the push as he has like 2 sentries and a stalker or whatever hte unit combo is (I don't really pay attention). Then he's contained after. This has also countered the void ray build. Although recently I DID get scouted once before the mutas popped and the guy went fast phoenixes and RAPED me and I couldn't do shit. One of my only losses thus far besides early early games in the beta. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On March 26 2010 01:02 FabledIntegral wrote: I find speedlings incredibly good especially because they can rape a protoss retreating army. I completley bypass roaches in my current ZvP build. Which is relatively greedy. Mind you I'm around ~1450 right now but I steadily increase my score everytime I log on... haven't hit a plateau yet (I'd love as well for someone to point out the flaws in my build!). 15 pool (unless on a small map like Steppes then it's 13) 17 gas 16 ovie 16 queen 18 ling 18 hatch at natural Ling speed at first 100 gas Lair at next 100 gas I just stay on about 6 lings total if the protoss is expanding and pump pure drones. as soon as lair is done I make a spire. by now I'm on four gas and still drone pumping. When the spire is about a quarter done I pump out another 12-14 speedlings as the immortal timing push usually comes right before the spire is done. I use these units to delay the immortal push (which seems to come no matter what despite me not building roaches, as I've completely delayed all scouting thus far). I actually don't have enough speeldings to hold off the push, but it buys time until around 6 mutas pop and rape the push as he has like 2 sentries and a stalker or whatever hte unit combo is (I don't really pay attention). Then he's contained after. This has also countered the void ray build. Although recently I DID get scouted once before the mutas popped and the guy went fast phoenixes and RAPED me and I couldn't do shit. One of my only losses thus far besides early early games in the beta. guarantee you'll lose as soon as someone who is decent with force fields goes pure zealot/sentry and attacks you before your mutas are out. You can't skip roaches against a good toss. Good toss won't go for immortal push if he sees you are going speedling -> muta or if he sees that you don't have a roach den. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On March 26 2010 01:02 FabledIntegral wrote: I find speedlings incredibly good especially because they can rape a protoss retreating army. I completley bypass roaches in my current ZvP build. Which is relatively greedy. Mind you I'm around ~1450 right now but I steadily increase my score everytime I log on... haven't hit a plateau yet (I'd love as well for someone to point out the flaws in my build!). 15 pool (unless on a small map like Steppes then it's 13) 17 gas 16 ovie 16 queen 18 ling 18 hatch at natural Ling speed at first 100 gas Lair at next 100 gas I just stay on about 6 lings total if the protoss is expanding and pump pure drones. as soon as lair is done I make a spire. by now I'm on four gas and still drone pumping. When the spire is about a quarter done I pump out another 12-14 speedlings as the immortal timing push usually comes right before the spire is done. I use these units to delay the immortal push (which seems to come no matter what despite me not building roaches, as I've completely delayed all scouting thus far). I actually don't have enough speeldings to hold off the push, but it buys time until around 6 mutas pop and rape the push as he has like 2 sentries and a stalker or whatever hte unit combo is (I don't really pay attention). Then he's contained after. This has also countered the void ray build. Although recently I DID get scouted once before the mutas popped and the guy went fast phoenixes and RAPED me and I couldn't do shit. One of my only losses thus far besides early early games in the beta. You're going to have a bad time with this build if the toss player has 5-6+ sentries/stalkers when he pushes with his first 2 immortals, or even if the toss foregoes immortals altogether and goes pure zealot/sentry. Even if you manage to kill off the sentries/stalkers with your mutas, the zealots/immortals are going to cripple your economy before your remaining mutas are able to bring things back under control. | ||
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Different[GD]
Poland6 Posts
From this point, protoss have huge knowledge about zerg's army and can properly counter everything Z will do. If Z does zerglings toss will add more zealots + sentries If P wont kill you in 1st push he will expand ( even twice ) Ps: Sorry for my bad english. | ||
Chill
Calgary25996 Posts
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Different[GD]
Poland6 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
So no speed even  | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On March 26 2010 01:12 Different[GD] wrote: I have similar problem with tosses, basically good protoss will do a 1 gate tech to fast obs and then proceed with another 3 gates in to warp gates. From this point, protoss have huge knowledge about zerg's army and can properly counter everything Z will do. If Z does zerglings toss will add more zealots + sentries If P wont kill you in 1st push he will expand ( even twice ) Ps: Sorry for my bad english. thats my prob basicly. he gets a fast robo with only some zeals+1stalker+1sentry and adds warpgates. i need to put quite some larva/ressources into lair,lingspeed,constant ling/raoch pump to be rdy for his attack. even if i can fend his 1st attack off he expos meanwhile and just goes macro mode and runs me over few minutes later cause if cant counterattack.im behind on eco,at best equal in tech and most likely behind in army supply as well. it seems that nomatter what i do a well timed immortal attack puts me behind always cause i have to spent so much stuff just to survive and he can play his game and puts pressure on me keeping me from getting a serious pump out. | ||
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Antpile
United States213 Posts
On March 26 2010 00:25 xDaunt wrote: Frankly, I'm surprised that more zerg don't abuse baneling/ling in the early game against toss. Toss really don't have a particularly good answer for banelings early on because their backbone early game units are zealots -- light-armored, melee units. zealots/sentry work just fine vs banelings. Banelings are slow until t2 and it takes 5 of them to kill a zealot.. so all you have to do is a little bit of micro to make sure you don't have all your zealots attack the banelings. If he hits 1-3 zealots, who cares? Normally I can hit a lot of them, but those that are good easily make me hit only 1 or 2.. or none. You can force field your own zealots when you see banelings and it'll split them up for you. | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On March 26 2010 06:56 Newguy wrote: You should be able to have an expo with two colonies, 7-10 roaches, a spire building, a bunch of gas saved for muta, and a lot of zerglings if you do your build right. Your expo might not have an insane amount of drones but it really doesn't matter because once he loses the push he loses the game because you can pump like 12+ muta once the colonies and roach/ling own his push. i really wanna see how u have enough zerglings,roaches and sunkens to def the attack while also expoing,teching to mutas AND saving up 1k+ gas and 1k+ minerals without atleast losing ur expo | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
vs ParanOid [url blocked] (Earlier in the beta so neither of us were too clued up on build efficiency I think, my early build is awful here, compare 9 minute unit count replay time to the next one) vs TassM [url blocked] (bit more up to date though he had bad macro I clearly had enough units to stop even him even if he had a couple more units) As random I've been trying to sort out a timing to fight this push in ZvP but obviously it's only 1/9 chance to get this match up, so its hard to get it down perfectly. It's still a work in progress. Ideas: -Combination of roach/speedling, roaches are excellent against zealots and lings are very good dps'ers + good soakers against immortals. (They survive 2 hits vs immortals, roaches live 3, 3x mineral/time to live) -Make your main force off 1 gas, and 1 queen using speedlings to reduce gas cost. No need to make too many drones. If you have 4 gas and 16 drones mining mins per base (i.e, capped out efficiency) you will die to this push, which is silly because toss is operating off 1 base 2 gas and ~16 (or any more makes no real difference) probes mining, and just building an army. -At least 24 mineral drones and 3 on gas. Squeeze in more if you think you need it, but you might end up building up minerals anyway and need another queen. -Taking a late first gas and double gasing I tried on the same map vs TassM 4 days earlier, and I got killed at (he arrived at my nat at) 7:30 by 7 lots, 1 sentry and 1 immortal. I had like 3 roaches and 14 lings, while at the same point in the above game I had 9 roaches and 12 lings, so I think you should be pumping units starting from 6:30 or 7 game time. We also got matched RvR --> PvZ the very next game and I won doing the exact same strat on desert oasis, except he went roach/ling into muta, suggested here, but he lost his main and pheonix stalker sentry stopped his muta so I don't think it's a great strat) -Army should keep up with his. Trickle in lings so you can have enough to react to an early zealot attack (i.e, if you scouted it and converted all larvae to lings afterward, you'd need some extra to survive). If he has too many zealots roach tech should be available. -Once you feel you have enough minerals/army start to make more drones/take another gas etc. Often this will happen after you defeat his push. -Roaches micro vs lots until he commits. Use lings to flank to hit weak sentries and take immortal damage. They are also more efficient taking down immortal shields. (and +1 lots if he went forge are deadly to your lings) Observations: -In PvZ 90% of my wins result from immortal attacks off only 2 gate 1 robo into expand if I can't kill him. What does not work: -DONT go mass speedlings. Forcefields will just counter this. -Mass roaches is not something you really want to do because you need lots more gas and drones than with roach ling. (Think infernal vs ret on scrap station) -Spire CAN work but it's basically all-in. Often my obs just checks spire hp and attacks at like 300/600 and breaks him, even 3-4-5 sunkens can just drop dead to immortal fire. I usually follow up with 1 stargate phoenix + chrono boost with stalker sentry if he kills my army with muta. (After I take down his nat or around that) HAVE NOT TRIED: Speedlings banelings: -Banelings take down zealots to almost nothing and lings finish off the rest, anyone tried this? BALLSY: Going hydra. If you rush to hydra and he doesn't attack you at an earlier timing this could be very effective, but hydra aren't absolutely amazing vs zealots so you do need quite a few, especially after the nerf. WHAT I WANT TO KNOW: What is the absolute best build you can get away with maximising economy while being fairly safe (Assuming you scout it when he leaves his ramp) against an attack at any time. (Since his obs can see you) i.e -How many drones until you switch to full units? -1 or 2 gas? 1 or 2 queens? -How many "safety" lings/roaches while you are still droning? I do know micro will play a big part but this is having a reasonable to good chance of beating his army while trying to get an healthy economy. | ||
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