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On March 14 2010 09:33 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.
Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame. Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too.
It's still possible to harass/kill the SCV with your scout or w/e just stand close to it and A move and it will auto target it even tho you wouldn't be able to target it manually.
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On March 14 2010 09:05 fantomex wrote:
Another bullshit thread about a new "ultimate" strategy but not a single replay to show for it.
Post a few replays of this beating good protoss players.
Ye seriously I'm starting to think it's all a joke.
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My last 6 PvT games I've just played, every single T went this build (I'm Plat top 8), and I've lost every one of them no matter what I did, 1 gate, 2gate, etc. I guess I'll have to start going forge first like the Korean P's just so I don't insta-lose.
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On March 14 2010 09:48 teamsolid wrote:
My last 6 PvT games I've just played, every single T went this build (I'm Plat top 8), and I've lost every one of them no matter what I did, 1 gate, 2gate, etc. I guess I'll have to start going forge first like the Korean P's just so I don't insta-lose.
Mind posting a replay or two? I haven't seen this nor had it done to me yet and I'm curious just how badly this beats boosted 2 gate
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On March 14 2010 04:20 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 04:17 HTX wrote:
New game new BOs. Whats so bad that Protoss have to spend 150 for Forge or pull Probes to defend vs SCV? If you scout DTs you have to spend money on detection and P can go Expansion anyways. No one complains because we are used to it from SC1. The difference is if you build a forge, the Terran makes an expansion and ends up way ahead. Read the OP. The difference of spending money on detection against DT rush is that in SC1, the Protoss could fast expand, but in doing so allows Terran to expand also. This build is essentially win straight up, or end up with a huge economic advantage. Pulling probes won't necessarily help because the new AI allows SCVs to block incredibly well so that none of your units (including probes) can get to the marines to take them out.
This is BS. Protoss is ahead economically in the early game due to CB. It takes two expo's and a little time before Terran catches up. At that point you go for Robo units, and Zealots.
Anyways, perhaps Protoss can't be so economically greedy anymore, and has to scout earlier?
Stalkers outrange Marines, so just micro....
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7 pylon 8/10 gateway instead of 11+?
i mean on unblockable maps (well not really because you could micro a marine between a rax and a building (eg. supplydepot/command center in sc1) new terrans had to go 8 rax instead of 10/11 rax when opening against most opponents.
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Lol @ people who are still skeptical when the entire Korean scene (which is miles ahead of the silver/gold US players) has already shifted. These are the same people who didn't believe the PvP warp rush build was overpowered when it was first brought to attention on TL.
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I exclusively play terran and will never really use this build unless i want to mix-up my game play. I won't learn anything by proving I can win within the first few minutes because of auto surround and rally'ed attack move units.
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I have opinions for both sides:
1. Why do terrans do this? Protoss has 2 units that counter an entire tier of units. Colo hard counters all clumped bio and immortal counters tanks and thors. Basically, once robo is up and functioning the game gets really difficult for the terran to move out (as of now). Terran has to go starport to counter colo and ghost to counter immortal, but the problem is that protoss is so much more flexible. Immortal counters tanks, but it's still really good against bio because of it counters mauds. One colo can do huge damage to clumped units with the huge range and mobility. Ghost can't do much against colo, and while banshees are great, they're so gas heavy that the protoss can counter banshees with stalkers, because 1 banshee = 2 stalkers in terms of gas. Terrans can get better at 1) mechanics or 2) strategy to win, and it's just easier to change your strategy than to improve mechanics (much earlier gratification as well). I'm not saying that colo/immortal are imba, but rather that they're really difficult to deal with as a new terran, and some may choose to take the easy way. It's not just the terrans; the reason why warp gates were nerfed was that people used it to its fullest extent, proxying everywhere advantegeous. This type of behavior is present in all players, and doesn't involve race-specific identity.
2. Terrans shouldn't abuse this. Obviously, Blizzard isn't going to let a strategy like this shape the future of SC2 gaming. The more people abuse the strategy, the more likely that SCVs or marines will be nerfed. And this does nothing to improve your skill. You're gonna be terrible once the strategy fails or becomes nerfed. Except because of the abuse marines will have longer buildtime or scvs will have less health. We saw what happened to warp gates when protoss players used it to death; if we don't want the similar thing to happen to rax/marines/scvs, we should develop a more legitimate and stable way to progress the game.
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On March 14 2010 09:33 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.
Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame. Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too.
Uhm what? There is one stage in the construction time in SCBW where the scv goes inside the building and for all I knows it's totally random when that happens. I think there is at least 3 or 4 other positions it can build at which is attackable by melee units. By this information it would be 20% chance of that this constructing position occurs everytime the scv switches position. Also I'm pretty sure the scv cannot go to the same position 2 times in a row.
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On March 14 2010 10:26 nujgnoy wrote:
2. Terrans shouldn't abuse this. Obviously, Blizzard isn't going to let a strategy like this shape the future of SC2 gaming. The more people abuse the strategy, the more likely that SCVs or marines will be nerfed. And this does nothing to improve your skill. You're gonna be terrible once the strategy fails or becomes nerfed. Except because of the abuse marines will have longer buildtime or scvs will have less health. We saw what happened to warp gates when protoss players used it to death; if we don't want the similar thing to happen to rax/marines/scvs, we should develop a more legitimate and stable way to progress the game.
hahaha what the fuck are you talking about? We don't want there to be a totally abusable strategy that terrans have... but agree only to use in really important matches so blizzard doesn't nerf it. We should abuse anything and everything we can get our hands on... that's the whole point of the beta! You know the goal is to balance the game, right?
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On March 14 2010 10:26 nujgnoy wrote:
2. Terrans shouldn't abuse this. Obviously, Blizzard isn't going to let a strategy like this shape the future of SC2 gaming. The more people abuse the strategy, the more likely that SCVs or marines will be nerfed. And this does nothing to improve your skill. You're gonna be terrible once the strategy fails or becomes nerfed. Except because of the abuse marines will have longer buildtime or scvs will have less health. We saw what happened to warp gates when protoss players used it to death; if we don't want the similar thing to happen to rax/marines/scvs, we should develop a more legitimate and stable way to progress the game.
I disagree with this completely. If anything, we should abuse it as much as humanely possible while we can in the beta so that it can be balanced accordingly. Should we not abuse strategies like this in the beta stage, then its likely to leak out into competitive gameplay when the game is released and likely the competitive scene will lose respect for the game. The whole purpose of the beta is to balance the game and make it as good as possible for release. Do that by abusing units/strategies until it gets balanced or an effective counter is found.
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On March 14 2010 10:24 teamsolid wrote:
Lol @ people who are still skeptical when the entire Korean scene (which is miles ahead of the silver/gold US players) has already shifted. These are the same people who didn't believe the PvP warp rush build was overpowered when it was first brought to attention on TL.
Yeah, my 1650 in Platinum is obviously Silver/Gold....
Most cheeses win you the game, the first time you play an opponent. This type of Cheese works all the time in SC1 also, especially against players who are doing standard builds.
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On March 14 2010 10:32 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 10:26 nujgnoy wrote:
2. Terrans shouldn't abuse this. Obviously, Blizzard isn't going to let a strategy like this shape the future of SC2 gaming. The more people abuse the strategy, the more likely that SCVs or marines will be nerfed. And this does nothing to improve your skill. You're gonna be terrible once the strategy fails or becomes nerfed. Except because of the abuse marines will have longer buildtime or scvs will have less health. We saw what happened to warp gates when protoss players used it to death; if we don't want the similar thing to happen to rax/marines/scvs, we should develop a more legitimate and stable way to progress the game.
I disagree with this completely. If anything, we should abuse it as much as humanely possible while we can in the beta so that it can be balanced accordingly. Should we not abuse strategies like this in the beta stage, then its likely to leak out into competitive gameplay when the game is released and likely the competitive scene will lose respect for the game. The whole purpose of the beta is to balance the game and make it as good as possible for release. Do that by abusing units/strategies until it gets balanced or an effective counter is found.
As my second sentence says, my assumption is that this WILL be corrected. It's made headlines in korean sites already. I agree, for the sake of the game, imbalances should be abused. But, what I want to address here is that players are abusing it for the wrong reason: to win.
I'm arguing here that terran players shouldn't do this strategy for their own sake as well because it will NOT work in the future. Then they will be behind in mechanics and have no strategy.
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winning is the only thing that matters
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On March 14 2010 09:35 JamesLame wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 09:33 MeProU_Kor wrote:On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.
Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame. Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too. It's still possible to harass/kill the SCV with your scout or w/e just stand close to it and A move and it will auto target it even tho you wouldn't be able to target it manually.
that works, you can also use the hit bars to see what side the scv is on which makes it easier
all t rushes are really really strong now, for some reason blizz seems to think that a good way to balance a matchup is to let one race have overpowered allins and give the other race a dominant late game.
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nice i definitly try this out, as an random player tvp is one of the hardest mu at the moment(talking about no chees ofc).
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On March 14 2010 09:35 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 09:33 MeProU_Kor wrote:On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.
Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame. Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too. ... O.O Are you serious? I have to pull a scv to deal with probe/drone harass 90% of my games (in sc1).
u saw what i quoted?
all i wanted to say was:
if i could handle probe harass in sc1,
IT SHOUDL BE no problem for terrans in sc2, since the scv doesnt slide wide enough to get attacked now most of the time + probes lost range.
edit
idra upload some replays for the actual patch plz =)
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On March 14 2010 10:42 nujgnoy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 10:32 Comeh wrote:On March 14 2010 10:26 nujgnoy wrote:
2. Terrans shouldn't abuse this. Obviously, Blizzard isn't going to let a strategy like this shape the future of SC2 gaming. The more people abuse the strategy, the more likely that SCVs or marines will be nerfed. And this does nothing to improve your skill. You're gonna be terrible once the strategy fails or becomes nerfed. Except because of the abuse marines will have longer buildtime or scvs will have less health. We saw what happened to warp gates when protoss players used it to death; if we don't want the similar thing to happen to rax/marines/scvs, we should develop a more legitimate and stable way to progress the game.
I disagree with this completely. If anything, we should abuse it as much as humanely possible while we can in the beta so that it can be balanced accordingly. Should we not abuse strategies like this in the beta stage, then its likely to leak out into competitive gameplay when the game is released and likely the competitive scene will lose respect for the game. The whole purpose of the beta is to balance the game and make it as good as possible for release. Do that by abusing units/strategies until it gets balanced or an effective counter is found. As my second sentence says, my assumption is that this WILL be corrected. It's made headlines in korean sites already. I agree, for the sake of the game, imbalances should be abused. But, what I want to address here is that players are abusing it for the wrong reason: to win. I'm arguing here that terran players shouldn't do this strategy for their own sake as well because it will NOT work in the future. Then they will be behind in mechanics and have no strategy.
???
if people abused it and lost, it wouldn't be an imbalance
if people didn't abuse it, then it wouldn't get properly nerfed
i don't understand your point
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Been trying it out vs every P I've met 100% win as of now (6games). Hasn't mattered what map it was or build they went, tho I haven't met anyone going forge yet...
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EPT
