|
Mixing in two factory builds in scbw made for some interesting/dynamic games. It allowed the Terran to be incredibly aggressive. I wanted to see if there was an early aggressive 2 fact compliment in SC2. I haven't seen any BO for this yet.. please let me know if u see one or have any replays of this that you would be nice enough to send me if u have any thoughts... There are probably other timings with regards to the refinery timings since there are two of them... optimally you would probably want to build them at the same time.. later than I have .. but I haven't figured out a way to make it jive yet.. this is super fast and it works great against zerg..Here is a build where u roll into the zerg's base with 4 (actually 6 but you can have four in his face and 2 finishing @ home) hellions just as + 16 finishes.
Supply (10)
Barracks (use scv to build right after eh finishes the supply depot)
Refinery (14 -- ya it's kind of late.. but any earlier and you have too many minerals when its time to throw down the factory.. I know that sounds like an oxy moron but w/ the 2nd refinery timing that seems to be what happens)
Supply (use your scv to throw down a supply while he's building the barracks then go right back to barracks... then shift right click back on supply so he finishes that building up after he's done w/ the barracks.... this keeps scouts out of your base when u have high minerals that aren't being used anyway)
Marine (Its nice to wait till after the next step to sneak this marine in.. but in all likely hood you'll probably have to build him after the barracks finishes if you're playing some one that scouts reasonably early)
Refinery + Orbital command (same time.. right after barracks finishes.. you might have to make one a hair before the other if a worker is harassing or if u have a less than perfect split or you had to make a marine(s))
1st Factory (build as soon as u get 100 gas..)
2nd Factory (build when 1st factory is half way done)
Physics lab (float barracks with marine at ramp as soon as u throw down the first factory.. drop physics lab right after the 2nd Factory starts next to the first factory)
Supply (23 - u can cut it a little closer.. 24 or 25 if u want but better safe than sorry.. probably want to wall off with this one after the barracks takes off)
From here on u swap barracks with Factory... research immediately... I like to either take scvs off gas and go for a super fast expo.. or research siege pump tanks get an add on to the 2nd factory and finish the game there.
Please let me know your thoughts and if u have found anything that can smooth anything out.
|
two things:
1) your hellion harass will land after the timing where zergs get roaches. Thus, it will have limited effect.
2) unsieged tanks suck in general as far as i can tell, and thus the backbone of the BW 2-fact doesnt work in sc2.
|
The reason to go 2 fac in sc1 (as an opener) was to get out vultures that could take down lings and workers (forget about mines for a second  ). Hellions can do that, but despite their popularity, reapers (with speed) are actually better early game. I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but here are my reasons:
Disadvantages of Hellion:
-Hellions attack too damn slow to kill any groups of lings that are microed well (in small numbers).
-Hellions can only come in the front door where the Zerg should have enough roaches to stop it (even if you rush too hellions).
-Hellions do very little damage to buildings so you can just be ignored for a good while.
Advantages of Hellion harass:
-Delays maynard/nat drone production
-Keeps Roaches in the zergs base
-Builds up a group of hellions to mix in your army later for fighting lings/banelings
Advantages of reaper harass:
-Earlier by a min or so.
-Can just take out buildings VERY quickly if you cant get to any workers.
-6 reapers w/ +1 attack can take out a queen in 3 volleys.
-non-speed lings melt if you micro at all.
-you can attack from any direction at any time with any size group and have it still do damage
So all in all, a good 2 rax reaper harass works a lot like 2 fac in SC1, but better if done properly. It also transitions nicely to the mid game for marauder/marine/tank pushes.
|
On March 10 2010 10:46 m3rciless wrote:
two things:
1) your hellion harass will land after the timing where zergs get roaches. Thus, it will have limited effect.
2) unsieged tanks suck in general as far as i can tell, and thus the backbone of the BW 2-fact doesnt work in sc2.
You could get hydras in time for vultures. The entire point was to keep zerg in the base.
|
one factory one port is better
reactor from rax is used for fact to x2 produce hellions
tech lab from same rax is used for port to send a banshee
then 3 rax mauraders with medivac and hellion support
|
here's what i've been using for hellion openings. numbers might be off, but relative timings work out pretty well (100gas after rax, reactor + fac finishing simultaneously, etc)
10supply
12gas
13rax
16/17?fac (100 gas right when rax finishes)
17oc (right after fac)
17supply
50 gas reactor
(constant scv + mule)
first fac finishes you should have ~300/100, so
2nd fac, lift/swap rax and fac
2 hellions (constant production)
supply
next 50 gas tech lab
when 2nd fac finishes, after lift/swapping with tech lab you should have about 100-150 gas, upg hellion when you can (you'll delay hellion production out of 2nd fac for a few secs)
you should have 1base saturation, enough extra scv to put up second gas, and be able to afford 3 hellion constant production + a bit extra for tech
this gets first few hellions out really quickly and can often hit their base with 2 (sometimes 4, scout them) before their roaches/stalkers are ready.
second fac can be replaced with port for fast hellion drop (e.g. if they block ramp with roaches)/banshees. putting down rax and switching fac/port gets you quickly set up for MMM+Tank
|
10 depo
12 rax
14 gas
15 OC
finish wall with Bunk and get 3 rine
19 fac
20 gas
21 fac
Reactor
24 armory
Get 4 Hellions, Tech lab on second fact, at 35 supply you should have just finished your armory, gotten 4 Hellions, and you start your first Thor. Do as much harassment as you can with the 4 hellions, then follow up with a push that starts as soon as you get your second Thor. 6 SCVs, pre-igniter, some more Helions(like six at least), and +1 vehicle armor should finish soon. When you push out you should start building your expansion. If I'm short minerals I salvage the bunker.
-12 rax and rine and wall right away helps tremendously against early lings without sacrificing tech. 3 rine bunker will save you from a speedling attack. First Hellions get out just in time if they attempt to bust the bunk with banelings. Beware trying to hellion harass when the opponent has speedlings. Speedlings on creep counter hellion harass better than spine crawlers or roaches. Thor is out early because Thor will beat roaches and mutas- just be sure to repair the Thor as if your life depends on it.
Hellion harass is always great. And Hellion+Thor is an awesome combo against Zerg.
I've been thinking that with my above since I already bunk+3 rine, there might be a FE version there with a good natural/ramp simcity, CC, with an eng bay for PF and missile turrets for defense against the muta/roach/speedling/baneling timings as you go for the same mech. But I wouldn't know it, I'd have to experiment.
|
On March 10 2010 13:13 Mnijykmirl wrote:
10 depo
12 rax
14 gas
15 OC
finish wall with Bunk and get 3 rine
19 fac
20 gas
21 fac
Reactor
24 armory
Get 4 Hellions, Tech lab on second fact, at 35 supply you should have just finished your armory, gotten 4 Hellions, and you start your first Thor. Do as much harassment as you can with the 4 hellions, then follow up with a push that starts as soon as you get your second Thor. 6 SCVs, pre-igniter, some more Helions(like six at least), and +1 vehicle armor should finish soon. When you push out you should start building your expansion. If I'm short minerals I salvage the bunker.
-12 rax and rine and wall right away helps tremendously against early lings without sacrificing tech. 3 rine bunker will save you from a speedling attack. First Hellions get out just in time if they attempt to bust the bunk with banelings. Beware trying to hellion harass when the opponent has speedlings. Speedlings on creep counter hellion harass better than spine crawlers or roaches. Thor is out early because Thor will beat roaches and mutas- just be sure to repair the Thor as if your life depends on it.
Hellion harass is always great. And Hellion+Thor is an awesome combo against Zerg.
I've been thinking that with my above since I already bunk+3 rine, there might be a FE version there with a good natural/ramp simcity, CC, with an eng bay for PF and missile turrets for defense against the muta/roach/speedling/baneling timings as you go for the same mech. But I wouldn't know it, I'd have to experiment.
If you're getting a thor you should definitely get +1 attack, not +1 armor. +1 attack Lets you oneshot hydra's, effectively doubling your effectiveness vs them.
|
I think they one-shot Hydras already. It's 2x45 vs. 90 0 armor. Plus Hellions 4-shot Hydras. Hydras aren't a problem. The push is about as strong as I can repair.
|
On March 10 2010 10:46 m3rciless wrote:
two things:
1) your hellion harass will land after the timing where zergs get roaches. Thus, it will have limited effect.
2) unsieged tanks suck in general as far as i can tell, and thus the backbone of the BW 2-fact doesnt work in sc2.
right so.. the above is true if they're staying in their main.. this is more effective against an early expanding player.. at the same time if they stay in their base.. you can stay in yours continuing to mass units or expand along side.. either way as terran.. you're gaining an advantage.
|
I have been working on a 2 fact build TvZ for a while. I don't know the exact BO off the top of my head, but the general idea is get a fast helion out to deal with lings and pressure him, get an armory asap and the helion damage up. Start making thors and get +1 vehicle attack, Move out when you feel comfortable/when there's a timing window, using helions to scout and harass as much as you can til then.
This push dismantles a lot of zerg play, especially any fast lair play. I think if you're looking at extended roach use you might want to start making tanks (since tanks dominate roaches hardcore). I have to work on the adjustments and followups and how to deal with varying zerg play, but it can win a lot of games. I think pulling some scvs might be really effective too if you do an early push since 4+ scvs repair a thor stupidly fast.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
