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Background Info
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Disclaimer:
My teammate and I have gone 22-22 after our placement matches (in which we went 10-0). Our opponents are usually favored so that puts us at #7 in our division with an elo of ~1225.
The thing is, I'm not a great player and neither is my teammate. I'm silver for 1v1 and he is bronze.
We have decent mechanics but we've been holding our own platinum (mostly through teamwork and abuse this BO and the insane amount of macro a zerg can get in the early midgame.
We used to be PZ but lately we've been going TZ.
As terran, he always opens with a wall, orbital ~15, and followed by 2 rax macro, getting ebay upgrades and the tech lab upgrades (and slowly transitioning into medivac)
Against PZ, TZ and PP teams, I've been having great success with the following build:
BO:
13 pool (queen as soon as pool finishes)
15 gas (3 on gas as soon as it finishes)
15 overlord
~17 queen
19 hatch at expo
20 roach warren
(save larva until warren pops)--> make 5-7 roaches.
Lair and second gas as soon as you can afford it
From here you meet with your teammate and push a Zerg or Protoss player (and have your teammate bring their r. Don't build any more roaches unless you need them for defense. Keep pumping drones. As soon as the lair finishes, put down a hydra den. As soon as the den starts, save larva for hydras.
Note: depending on your opponents opening build you may just kill one of them outright with the initial 7 or so roaches.
Expoing and waiting for the queen gives you later roaches but a much much better economy with really high drone counts. Additionally, the roaches come out in time to deal with most combined pushes.
IT IS IMPORTANT TO MAKE SURE YOU AND YOUR TEAMMATE FIGHT TOGETHER.
Anyway, I'm sure people will find problems with this BO and I welcome criticism.
I'm working on refining a mass speedling build for playing against PT, TT, and maybe ZZ. I'll post it if it proves successful.
REPLAYS:
http://sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/63
(More coming as I find them)
tldr:
+ Show Spoiler +13 pool (queen as soon as pool finishes)
15 gas (3 on gas as soon as it finishes)
15 overlord
~17 queen
19 hatch at expo
20 roach warren
(save larva until warren pops)--> make 5-7 roaches.
Lair and second gas as soon as you can afford it
From here you meet with your teammate and push a Zerg or Protoss player (and have your teammate bring their r. Don't build any more roaches unless you need them for defense. Keep pumping drones. As soon as the lair finishes, put down a hydra den. As soon as the den starts, save larva for hydras.
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somehow i feel your build is very wrong. now i'm not a zerg expert by any means in fact i play terran mostly.
specifically your hatch expo. does it serve to give you an economic advantage (as in you're pushing so you can safely expo) or do you want to use it to make more roaches? because the timing for that doesn't exactly work does it? (19 hatch 20 warren)?
also if your teammate goes MM or just marines, wouldn't it make more sense to just got 1 base roach (roughly 9-12 roaches) so you can tank the damage while the marines deal the damage?
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The reason I usually only get 5-7 roaches is I've found that when backed with my friends marine marauder, I don't need anymore. 5-7+mm generally handles whatever unit combination we face. I do produce more if I need them to defend but in general I'd rather drone up for the better economy. So I can pump an outrageous number of hydras once the den pops.
Most protoss rush for immortal and most terran stack up on marauders so roaches aren't very effective as the game goes on. Additionally, hydras are cost effective against most units in the game and holds off a terran who goes fast banshee or a protoss who goes fast void ray. The switch to hydra almost always catches them off guard and counters so many other builds.
The expansion provides the additional 2 gas which helps a ton. Additionally the larva allow me to outproduce a zerg opponent who went with 13pool followed immediately by roach warren.
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hmm i look forward to playing against this build. I guess my biggest issue has to do with the timing. I really think that the opponents units are more than you would expect them to be.
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i feel that your 19expo 20 roach build would quite frankly get raped by any mu that rushed, i mean if 2 tosses go prxoy warp gates or even standard 2gate zelots your screwed no matter what you do. I feel that once your expo is up and roaches are running around depending on what your opponents did to counter it, you would be in a huge postion. but seams too greedy because you aint even going to have lings with that build until at least 19 only a queen which is suicide in 2v2
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sorry man, any type of FE build in 2v2 = big nono, you will get destroyed by any zealot/roach/M&M/stalker double-team attack.
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On March 10 2010 01:17 BlasiuS wrote:
sorry man, any type of FE build in 2v2 = big nono, you will get destroyed by any zealot/roach/M&M/stalker double-team attack.
The timings work out so a zerg who gets roaches faster and pushes only has a few (since they are pushing before they get a queen). There is a timing window where this builds vulnerable but it is pretty damn small. (That window is while the roach warren is building and you are saving larva but you can always produce lings.) If they do try to push you, just get your teammate to help in the first fight. Even if we do lose the first fight, its always very close and I push it back with a second wave of roaches.
The reason it isn't as risky as you guys think is that roaches destroy zealots and my teammate usually has 1-2 marauders out (along with marines), even for an early rush. Using the watch towers and well placed overlords I get a pretty big warning when they leave.
Even getting rushed we've great success with this and I assume the build would be even better in the hands of someone who marcos and multitasks better.
Don't take my word for it though, Give it a try on bnet with a teammate. (I use voice chat with my teammate to speed up reaction times and make communication easier)
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I think your push is going to get absolutely rolled by any zerg player who goes the more standard:
13 pool
15 gas
@pool queen
@pool roach warren
16 overlord
pump roaches
Seems like the only time this attack will work is if you are against bad players and get to fight an extended 2v1 in one of your opponent's base. Any team that is able to get their army together is going to have such a huge unit advantage that you are going to get rolled, and you are going to lose your expo during the counter attack.
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They don't have a huge unit advantage, they usually have 2-3 more roaches at most (edit: I'll do that math on it later tonight and get an exact answer). Against PZ those extra 3 roaches are no big deal since zealots such so much against roaches and mm mirco but in a mirror TZ it does become a problem. In my experience though the advantage they have is nothing good micro and faster reinforcements can't handle.
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Just finished the testing. Here are the results:
Timons Build
+ Show Spoiler +
Assuming constant roach production: No drones after roach warren pops
Roach warren finishes at 4:52
16 drones, 3 on gas, expansion morphing at natural
First 7 roaches hatch at 5:20
5:20: 7 roaches
5:38: 8 roaches
6:12: 11 roaches
6:27: 13 roaches
6:35: 14 roaches
6:45 15 roaches
7:00 17 roaches
Standard
+ Show Spoiler +
Assuming constant roach production: No drones after roach warren pops
Roach warren finishes at 4:07
16 drones, 3 on gas
First 3 roaches pop at 4:36
4:36- 3 roaches
4:53- 4 roaches
5:01-7 roaches
5:16- 8 roaches
5:29: 9 roaches
5:42: 11 roaches
5:54: 12 roaches
6:08: 13 roaches
6:35: 15 roaches
Now assuming they are the aggressors (you can always fall back), travel time with vary by map, but even assuming close positions on lost temple, it takes the roaches 40 seconds to get from the main they are hatched in to their opponents natural.
At no point (including travel time) would they outnumber you with roaches (edit: excluding about 7 seconds if they attack with their first 3 roaches and your first 7 can get to your natural to kill them  )
Finally, assuming you don't continue roach production after the initial 7 and instead get a second gas, lair, and roaches or drones (depending on the need) Instead you get:
6:37: Lair pops
7:29: Hydra Den pops
8:00: 5 hydras
Additionally, if you win the first fight and you don't need more roaches, you are up to 22 drones before you put down the hydra den.
The testing seems pretty solid to me. If anyone else wants to repeating it feel free.
Edit: And here are the replays from my testing
http://sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/81
http://sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/82
http://sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/83
Anyway, this build also works in 1v1s vs Z and P with minor changes.
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On March 10 2010 12:40 AraqirG wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Just finished the testing. Here are the results: Timons Build + Show Spoiler +
Assuming constant roach production: No drones after roach warren pops
Roach warren finishes at 4:52
16 drones, 3 on gas, expansion morphing at natural
First 7 roaches hatch at 5:20
5:20: 7 roaches
5:38: 8 roaches
6:12: 11 roaches
6:27: 13 roaches
6:35: 14 roaches
6:45 15 roaches
7:00 17 roaches
Standard + Show Spoiler +
Assuming constant roach production: No drones after roach warren pops
Roach warren finishes at 4:07
16 drones, 3 on gas
First 3 roaches pop at 4:36
4:36- 3 roaches
4:53- 4 roaches
5:01-7 roaches
5:16- 8 roaches
5:29: 9 roaches
5:42: 11 roaches
5:54: 12 roaches
6:08: 13 roaches
6:35: 15 roaches
Now assuming they are the aggressors (you can always fall back), travel time with vary by map, but even assuming close positions on lost temple, it takes the roaches 40 seconds to get from the main they are hatched in to their opponents natural. At no point (including travel time) would they outnumber you with roaches (edit: excluding about 7 seconds if they attack with their first 3 roaches and your first 7 can get to your natural to kill them ) Finally, assuming you don't continue roach production after the initial 7 and instead get a second gas, lair, and roaches or drones (depending on the need) Instead you get: 6:37: Lair pops 7:29: Hydra Den pops 8:00: 5 hydras Additionally, if you win the first fight and you don't need more roaches, you are up to 22 drones before you put down the hydra den. The testing seems pretty solid to me. If anyone else wants to repeating it feel free. Edit: And here are the replays from my testing http://sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/81http://sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/82http://sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/83Anyway, this build also works in 1v1s vs Z and P with minor changes.
You do know there isn't a clock when playing a real match right?
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The lack of a clock doesn't matter. The timings show relative # of roaches to the other build at a specific time. The time could be in any type of unit, but it shows that Timon's build will have 14 Roaches while the standard would have 15, etc.
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how can u ever lose with t/z against p/z anyway?? unfortunately 2on2 is blatantly imbalanced in favor of T/Z so it really doesnt matter what exact build you do against any other team than t/z as long as you get mass roaches and mass mm quickly. Just use ur brain when and where to attack and micro better than a one handed chipmunk and you should easily waltz through anything other teams can throw at you.
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The build also works in 1v1 ZvZ and ZvP (as described above). I used it tonight successfully in a ZvZ but did lose 1 game to a guy who did a very similar build but expanded to a high yield instead of his natural (smart choice on his part). I ran into the same problem I demonstrated in the testing. I barely had more roaches, but including travel time I couldn't break him.
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On March 10 2010 15:37 damenmofa wrote:
how can u ever lose with t/z against p/z anyway?? unfortunately 2on2 is blatantly imbalanced in favor of T/Z so it really doesnt matter what exact build you do against any other team than t/z as long as you get mass roaches and mass mm quickly. Just use ur brain when and where to attack and micro better than a one handed chipmunk and you should easily waltz through anything other teams can throw at you.
Pretty much the way I see it too, the op talks about how this is good against a terran going banshees or a protoss going void rays... well duh.. so is just massing one base roaches and wiping them out, I can't imagine NOT winning as Z+T in any thing over 6 minutes if any of your opponents actually tries to tech.
He's right that if scouted properly the attacking team is some what at a disadvantage though. Zerg's spawn larvae and production over that travel time can be pretty insane. It kind of depends how good your opponents macro is while fighting.
I guess I don't understand the fast expand or hurry to get to hydras though. I prefer to saturate one base with drones to about 22min / 6 gas while getting lair, +1 armor upgrade, burrow, roach speed, and an overseer. Your partner should be getting combat shields, stim, and +1 ranged upgrades as well. You can hit around the time burrow first finishes from your lair and you and your partners upgrades should start kicking in as you get near the enemy base.
So I guess my question is how do you survive our timing attack while not only fast expanding but switching tech to hydras so quickly. The way I see that playing out is your friends marine / marauders would have to tank for your hydras while my roaches with speed / burrow micro tank for us with medivacs. Roach regen while burrowed and medivac'd is just so crazy. We kill the marauders fairly quickly and then hydras lose to left over roaches and our M/M. Roaches also have 6 seconds less of build time then hydras so it's easier to reinforce my army then yours.
In the mean time I'm already at lair so I can throw down a hydra den if we see some sort of Air attack and for some reason can't wipe them out as well as make quick spore colonies. While rallying units to your bases I can throw up a hatch for extra roach production since they're cheap and once we decide to stop pushing if we don't some how win I can quickly saturate it and be no less off making the same hydras as you can.
I'm sure your build is pretty good though for punishing badies / average teams. I bet your production can get out of control pretty fast if not scouted and dealt with and that is an easy way to win games. I actually do something pretty similar to that strat on that one twillight fortress map since its gigantic and like impossible to really have a low tech rush win the game.
All in all unless you take 2v2 super seriously it probably doesn't matter to much what you do as long as you're Z+T
In 1v1 I've broken 2 base hydra, off one base, it's pretty easy actually with a timing attack and when your roaches have speed upgrade you can literally just run away from hydras and burrow then come back after 4-5 seconds of regen. Since he's going quick hydra he probably isn't gonna put the gas into upgrade his roaches and opt for hydra range so there is a decent window to exploit that micro. Not to mention any time he has to run away your speed roaches get free kills on his slow hydras.
The other option against a guy fast expanding to the orange crystals is nydus wyrm. He cant be at both bases at the same time so you nydas to the one he isn't at, when he comes to defend it just send about 5 speed roaches to the other and clear out his worker line, then have your main force run back through your nydus and boom heavy econ losses while you lose practically nothing. It's also really not that hard at all to properly expand yourself as long as your macro is on par.
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As far as the reason to rush to hydra, that is primarily a response to protoss rushing to immortal in 2v2 or 1v1 (which is super common in the games I've played). During this time is when I drone up, get 3-4 gas, etc. If they don't make an effort to counter the roaches (for example, are sticking with zealots), I'll keep on the pressure with roaches and get roach upgrades.
Edit: Another replay: http://sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/99
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EPT
