EPTextractor -> gas so u can rush with lings
extractor tricks again to pull out 1 or 2 more drones, i would said 1 only so that u hv exactly 150 mins for the queens after the pool is done
[D] Extractor Trick - Page 2
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
extractor -> gas so u can rush with lings extractor tricks again to pull out 1 or 2 more drones, i would said 1 only so that u hv exactly 150 mins for the queens after the pool is done | ||
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Cyclon
United States99 Posts
Estimate of overlord no extractor: at 10 drones and 75 minerals, getting an overlord takes 2.5 seconds of mining time, 20 seconds build time, then 17 seconds to build the three drones. Three drones are done at a total of 39s. Estimate of overlord then extractor: Build overlord at +2.5 seconds. Getting 75 more minerals for extractor trick takes about 7.5 seconds, so build next drone at +10s. Build another 2 drones at +22.5 seconds. First drone pops at +27 seconds, next two pop at +39s (same as overlord no extractor). Estimate of extractor then overlord: build the drone at 75 minerals, wait approximately 9 seconds to start overlord. 3 drones start at +29 seconds from start, finish at +46 seconds. 1st drone provides approximately (46s-17s) 29 minerals in this time. Comparing Overlord then Extractor to Overlord no Extractor: Early drone has mined approximately 12s, so 12 minerals. Expected profit of about a few minerals, but more importantly your next larva keeps coming quicker. In theory, until you stop producing drones with that larva, each drone can come 12 seconds earlier, so +12 minerals profit for as long as you want to keep those drones coming. You can also pump out other units quicker obviously, but the advantage is not quantifiable. As soon as your hatchery hits 3 larvae at a time, the advantage is lost. Comparing Extractor to Overlord vs Overlord to Extractor: At 39s, OtE gets its two drones up, while EtO takes another 7s to get three up. EtO gets its 11th drone approximately 10s earlier, so it is 10 minerals ahead until the OtE gets its two drones up. OtE's two drones mine approximately 14 minerals before EtO's drones come up, putting OtE about 4 minerals ahead. However, due to earlier larva usage, EtO will always be about 5 seconds ahead in drone production, which equals 5 more minerals for every further drone you build. Same situation as mentioned above, advantage is lost as soon as you hit the larvae cap. TL;DR: Extractor trick should help in both instances. The difference between them is pretty marginal, so do whichever you like. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On March 18 2010 05:28 Cyclon wrote: Comparing Overlord then Extractor to Overlord no Extractor: Early drone has mined approximately 12s, so 12 minerals. Expected profit of about a few minerals, but more importantly your next larva keeps coming quicker. In theory, until you stop producing drones with that larva, each drone can come 12 seconds earlier, so +12 minerals profit for as long as you want to keep those drones coming. You can also pump out other units quicker obviously, but the advantage is not quantifiable. As soon as your hatchery hits 3 larvae at a time, the advantage is lost. Comparing Extractor to Overlord vs Overlord to Extractor: At 39s, OtE gets its two drones up, while EtO takes another 7s to get three up. EtO gets its 11th drone approximately 10s earlier, so it is 10 minerals ahead until the OtE gets its two drones up. OtE's two drones mine approximately 14 minerals before EtO's drones come up, putting OtE about 4 minerals ahead. However, due to earlier larva usage, EtO will always be about 5 seconds ahead in drone production, which equals 5 more minerals for every further drone you build. Same situation as mentioned above, advantage is lost as soon as you hit the larvae cap. Can you go into detail about those bolded parts? I don't see how you get to that result. Both extractor trick builds should never get to 3 larvae, so after drone 14 is being morphed both builds should (still) get larvae at the exact same timings and will also have the minerals and supply to morph drones. So neither build will be ahead in drones after that point. EtO is ahead for a short time but you already considered that (+10), so that can't be used again. Then OtE is ahead for a while, earning +14, and after that the builds are equal. So my conclusion would be "OtE = EtO + 4". NE (no extractor) is only larva-blocked for ~2 seconds (don't know for sure, but certainly not 12). As before, NE is almost equal to EtO and OtE except that NE has a short delay in larvae and 3 minerals less than OtE. In terms of minerals: OtE = EtO + 4 = NE + 3 (+ ~2) In terms of larvae: OtE = EtO = NE + ~2sec | ||
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Cyclon
United States99 Posts
So in the end, we still have extractor trick > no extractor trick, but the difference is much more minute. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
Paranoid everyones going for the cheese... | ||
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Caedis_HiT
Norway28 Posts
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Kanan
United States56 Posts
On March 09 2010 13:26 onmach wrote: Doing a trick with one extractor just feels right. If you don't do it, your queen tends to want to start building awkward timing like 17 supply, and so you end up having to make a choice of either not building a drone or delaying your queen. I just did a test, just one attempt per style, there's probably some variation. I did it until 2:24 to be sure that no build was supply blocked. Standard without trick. 2:24 I had 16 supply (1 drone @ 60%) and 335 mins (total ~1115) One drone trick to 11 supply, then overlord 2:24 I had 17 supply (1 drone @ 15%) and 314 mins. (total ~1121) Overlord at 10 then one drone trick. 2:24 I had 17 supply (1 drone @ 15%) and 309 mins. (total ~1116) Total being the total minerals + cost in drones (estimated cost of partial drone). Since all of the results are within a single trip to a patch, it seems like it doesn't matter very much. I'm sure there was more error in my split than there was in the difference between these trials. I was expecting more variation from that. Kind of disappointing. Thanks for the testing  I've always thought it doesn't make much of a difference. Also on the minerals lost by canceling, it's 1 mineral if you cancel right away, 2 minerals for 2 tricks at the same time. However, because each drone trip brings in 5 minerals and everything in the game costs in increments of 25, you're effectively losing 5 minerals whether you 1 trick or 2 trick. | ||
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kme
Serbia176 Posts
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
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Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
Just do what feels right for your playstyle. | ||
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rbkl
772 Posts
1. 10 extractor trick, 11 overlord, 14 pool Pool time: 1:17 Resources at 2 minutes: ~220 minerals / 16 drones / 2 overlords 2. 10 overlord, no extractor trick, 13 pool Pool time: 1:22 Resources at 2 minutes: ~220 / 16 drones / 2 overlords 3. 10 overlord, extractor trick, 14 pool Pool time: 1:20 (you can GREATLY reduce this if you don't build the 14th drone) Resources at 2 minutes: ~250 / 16 drones / 2 overlords Conclusion: All are basically the same, 10 overlord, extractor trick is marginally optimal | ||
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dargul
Russian Federation125 Posts
Economy; Extra+12 over > 9 over ~ 10 over (> means about +20minerals) Timing: 9 over > 10 over ~ Extra+12 over(> means about +3sec) If u use only 1 extra drone than the difference will be even smaller. When canceling building u lose 25% of its cost. So 1 canceled ext costs 6minerals. Also this trick can be used in late game when u have 200 limit and lots of minerals. U can start building 20 spores for ex order 20more limit army and cancel 20spores. U will lose 375min(isn't that much for huge macro game) but u will have 220\200 limit. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
I don't think that thread tested double-extractor trick though. Canceling the extractor gives 19 of 25 back, but costs are all multiples of 5, and drones always return 5 at a time, so 4 minerals is basically the same as zero minerals, making the effective cost of the extractor trick 10 minerals instead of 6. | ||
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brainlizard
United States17 Posts
).Since the larva count (I noted when larvae popped), mineral count, supply, and pool timings were all identical, 9ov is better, since your second ovie gets out and about that much sooner. I ran the tests with speed down to "normal" so I could be sure to micro it right. I'm a diamond zerg player. | ||
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
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Nivra
37 Posts
On June 02 2010 04:56 SichuanPanda wrote: I use double extractor trick when I do 14 Pool FE, this way you can have optimal drone mining non-stop without having to worry about supply. 12 Drones will mine you up to 100, you build an overlord, and just before he's finished you will have 200 to start your pool, and three drones later 300 to expand. It all times out very nicely from my experience to do FE. However if I am not going an FE build than I find 9 OL, 11/12 gas/pool and this works much better for a one base opening. Which is mathematically the best I'm not sure, but form my experience this is what works. Isn't that a 12pool into 14hatch? | ||
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Mr.E
United States434 Posts
It's been tested by many people, including me(and I've done the extractor trick at least 4 thousand times by now) 9/10 overlord will increase your minerals by like 15-30 or something. Plus your overlord gets a head start and ..you don't need to do extractor trick. | ||
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BasementCat
Canada155 Posts
EDIT: yeah, so pretty much what SichuanPanda said | ||
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Pwere
Canada1557 Posts
Has anyone tested doing it with the scouting drone(s), or maybe even doing a triple trick this way? | ||
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