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I've only seen one top level zerg video where the zerg used this (actually used 2 at once in one of those asian tourney games).
I've been using this for a long time assuming that it's really good because the cancel cost compared to BW is so much less. But I just got to thinking about milikitov's post about how workers basically gather 1 mineral a second got me to wondering if this is efficient every game.
So even if the extractor (which cost 25) is made and canceled (and assuming that you still lose 25%-30% of cost like scbw) it's still not worth it in regular economic builds. (also add in lost mining time for doing it which would be 2-5seconds)
Now, i know gaining that extra worker before lord on something like 6pool is totally beneficial, but what I am talking about is usage like:
10 drones, make extractor, make drone 11/10, cancel extractor, make lord.
OR
10 drones, overlord, make extractor, make drone 11/10, cancel extractor.
Also, if these are legitimate to use which one is better? I'm thinking the lord then extractor trick might be a little better than the ex trick then lord.
OT- wow that's crazy some guy made a similar thread like 3 minutes after me.
mod edit- He linked wikipedia so here is his OP as well
On March 09 2010 09:17 2WeaK wrote:Hey, I played against a Zerg barely 5-10min ago and he did a double  extractor Trick and it got me wondered, is it worth it? I saw a thread a while back in the SC1 strategy forums saying that most of the time you lost minerals doing that, thus bringing me to question it now that the extractor cost half of what it used to. Any thoughts?
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but if u make another drone before ur overlord wont that delay ur other drones? seems more logical to me if u make the gas trick after u started the lord :p ah read the rest now and ye the second option sounds pretty clever to me, i still dunno if its worth it tho (t user :d)
its defiantly debatable now tho, since it cost 25 gas now instead of 50. and also placing buildings as a zerg is faster than before
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United States7166 Posts
I use these all the time but wonder how effective it is. im almost positive it's worth doing either way, tho i'd also like to know which is more efficient.
note that overlords build faster in sc2 so it may not be a huge benefit but probably makes a very minor increase in income early on
@morrow, but you get the drones quite a bit faster if you do it before overlord.
actually sometimes i'll even do a double extractor trick for 12/10 but not sure if this is worth over 11/10
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Morrow,
25 mins yea, placing buildings- the drone doesn't have to wiggle his little tail anymore, it's instant as well.
and yea delaying the 3 drones after lord is also one of the concerns about ex trick before or after lord. Since workers mine so much more efficient now, the 3 drones are instantly + maximum gain per minute on minerals. So by delaying all 3 of them at once by getting an earlier single drone by 20~? seconds might not be as good.
So the 3 would be mining 20~ seconds longer while the single drone is waiting for his other 2 buddies. I'm thinking this would only be better if you plan to 11/10 overpool?
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I haven't done the math, but tbh it doesn't seem like it would help you. Normally when you go ovi at 10 it will finish just as you have 3 lavas and enough minerals to create 3 drones... If you do this trick you will have one less larva when the ovi spawns, so guess it comes down to if the one extra drone will be able to mine enough minerals (app 20 minerals?) on app the time it takes to spawn an ovi and unfortunately I think thats less than 20 sec... someone correct me if I'm wrong 
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TY for quoting my post. ^^;
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United States7166 Posts
another big thing to worry about is larvae generation.
if you dont do any extractor trick, you sit at 3 larvae while waiting to get overlord, but if you do 1 before overlord (or after) it's just perfect (3rd larvae pops out just as overlord pops)
@2weak
thank manifesto7 he's the one who added it in
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I do this all the time now everytime I random zerg (into the 7 roach injection build I saw from somewhere...)
It seems to work out with double extractor trick to 12 drones. You'll then get enough money for an overlord, and when that's done you can pool, queen at 15-16 etc. etc.
If I have time I'll find some replays and measure this though.
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On March 09 2010 09:38 Zelniq wrote:
another big thing to worry about is larvae generation.
if you dont do any extractor trick, you sit at 3 larvae while waiting to get overlord, but if you do 1 before overlord (or after) it's just perfect (3rd larvae pops out just as overlord pops)
@2weak
thank manifesto7 he's the one who added it in
9/10 - make overlord, then drone to go 10/10.
Once you hit 100 minerlals the overlord spawns and u can make 2 drones instantly ( should be out 100% of time ), then 3rd larva spawns exactly around 50 minerals mark.
Going 10/10 drones and then overlord is way slower.
With the proper build I described I dont think extractor trick has any use at all.
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I find that if I do extractor trick at 10/10 supply around 60 minerals there will be ~2-3 drones returning to the hatch with minerals so I immediately get 50 to make that 11/10 drone. I then make the overlord after and will always have 3 larva up when the overlord pops.
To me it feels faster but I don't have any proof that it is.
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you only lose 1 mineral canceling an extractor.
Also if you cancel an egg you get a new larva yeah!!
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On March 09 2010 10:27 jabberwokie wrote:
you only lose 1 mineral canceling an extractor.
Also if you cancel an egg you get a new larva yeah!!
You lose more than 1mineral if you take into account that you're losing mining time with that drone or those 2 drones if you double extractor.
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it's weak to proxy gate (rare enough as it is)
from my experiences
zvz is pretty much always safe
zvp on 2 player maps it's probably something to avoid, proxy gates will have like ~5-10 extra seconds on the zerg to attack. not really anything huge
zvt inconclusive for me, maybe someone else could share bunker rush experiences with and without gas trickery
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I normally do 10 ov, then extractor after ov for 11/10, then you go for 13 (and 14 if you want) after ov spawn (you can do two right at the ov spawn). This avoids having 3 larva sitting around at any point of the build, and if you like scouting early, you can send your extractor drone for a scout. Also, if you manage where your workers are mining properly, you will only really lose a few seconds of mining time with the drone that makes the extractor if you send him back to minerals.
The 11/10 drone will be about half done by the time your ov pops, thus will get that much extra mining time as well as you get another larva a few seconds earlier since you didn't sit with 3.
Clearly this is anecdotal evidence and I would be interested in seeing someone actually coming up with numbers and how fast you have to do it for it to be worthwhile, but it at least makes me feel like I'm getting a slight advantage from doing it.
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I believe you lose 6 minerals from canceling an extractor.
The extractor trick at 11/10 allows you to start building the 11 drone at around halfway done with the overlord. That's around 12 seconds sooner than you would get a drone if you waited for ovie to finish.
Assuming that a drone mines an average of 1 mineral per second, as long as you don't lose more than 6sec mining with the drone that builds the extractor, you're golden.
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It doesn't matter how many minerals you lose when canceling as long as it isn't over 25. Since everything is in increments of 25 minerals. 1 mineral = 25 minerals as does 20 minerals = 25 minerals...If you know what I'm trying to say.
Edit: Actually I'm wrong because each drone brings in minerals in smaller increments. Nevermind.
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Doing a trick with one extractor just feels right. If you don't do it, your queen tends to want to start building awkward timing like 17 supply, and so you end up having to make a choice of either not building a drone or delaying your queen.
I just did a test, just one attempt per style, there's probably some variation. I did it until 2:24 to be sure that no build was supply blocked.
Standard without trick.
2:24 I had 16 supply (1 drone @ 60%) and 335 mins (total ~1115)
One drone trick to 11 supply, then overlord
2:24 I had 17 supply (1 drone @ 15%) and 314 mins. (total ~1121)
Overlord at 10 then one drone trick.
2:24 I had 17 supply (1 drone @ 15%) and 309 mins. (total ~1116)
Total being the total minerals + cost in drones (estimated cost of partial drone). Since all of the results are within a single trip to a patch, it seems like it doesn't matter very much. I'm sure there was more error in my split than there was in the difference between these trials.
I was expecting more variation from that. Kind of disappointing.
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onmach, I don't think you can stop the testing like that. I would think this kind of thing would matter later on.
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Shit I just realized that it's possible to do extractor trick on the next supply block as well (after you make queen and waiting for lord to pop you get another larva)
anyways, here are 3 reps:
1 with no extractor trick, 1 with it before lord, and 1 with it after lord.
http://www.mediafire.com/?mdngym0ykjn
Other than the extractor trick, the basis of the build is to do the standard fast queen fast roach opening.
So it's essentially 15pool, 14 gas, 17 roach warren, 16 queen, 18 lord. 3 onto gas asap, Then keep making drones and the rep ends after first roach.
btw, I dunno if it's a bug or not but I can't see APM or Income shit in single player game without a computer.
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Is 15 pool the cool macro build now? I usually do 13 pool and if I continue with 1 base play I start a second overlord at 15 - it finishes together with the pool and you have 2 larva at that time, with enough money to morph a pair of lings, a drone (or 2 drones) and a queen. Going to play around with extractor trick around around 10 supply tho.
OK, so if you extractor trick before your overlord you get a third larva at your hatch exactly when the ovie pops, 14th drone started at 1 min 12 sec. When I did the overlord before trick thing, I got the same result. When I did no extractor trick, I actually got my 14th drone at 1 min 14 sec, so if you're going for the 15pool, it's definitely worth it. I guess it's also nice if you go 10pool.
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my expr: 10 -> pool -> extractor trick +1 drones -> overlord (this will give u overlord right b4 pool finish) -> 2 options:
extractor -> gas so u can rush with lings
extractor tricks again to pull out 1 or 2 more drones, i would said 1 only so that u hv exactly 150 mins for the queens after the pool is done
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Just crunching some numbers here, going with the 1 drone = 1 mineral per second rule of thumb. I'm assuming that doing the extractor trick costs approximately 9 minerals.
Estimate of overlord no extractor: at 10 drones and 75 minerals, getting an overlord takes 2.5 seconds of mining time, 20 seconds build time, then 17 seconds to build the three drones. Three drones are done at a total of 39s.
Estimate of overlord then extractor: Build overlord at +2.5 seconds. Getting 75 more minerals for extractor trick takes about 7.5 seconds, so build next drone at +10s. Build another 2 drones at +22.5 seconds. First drone pops at +27 seconds, next two pop at +39s (same as overlord no extractor).
Estimate of extractor then overlord: build the drone at 75 minerals, wait approximately 9 seconds to start overlord. 3 drones start at +29 seconds from start, finish at +46 seconds. 1st drone provides approximately (46s-17s) 29 minerals in this time.
Comparing Overlord then Extractor to Overlord no Extractor:
Early drone has mined approximately 12s, so 12 minerals. Expected profit of about a few minerals, but more importantly your next larva keeps coming quicker. In theory, until you stop producing drones with that larva, each drone can come 12 seconds earlier, so +12 minerals profit for as long as you want to keep those drones coming. You can also pump out other units quicker obviously, but the advantage is not quantifiable. As soon as your hatchery hits 3 larvae at a time, the advantage is lost.
Comparing Extractor to Overlord vs Overlord to Extractor:
At 39s, OtE gets its two drones up, while EtO takes another 7s to get three up. EtO gets its 11th drone approximately 10s earlier, so it is 10 minerals ahead until the OtE gets its two drones up. OtE's two drones mine approximately 14 minerals before EtO's drones come up, putting OtE about 4 minerals ahead. However, due to earlier larva usage, EtO will always be about 5 seconds ahead in drone production, which equals 5 more minerals for every further drone you build. Same situation as mentioned above, advantage is lost as soon as you hit the larvae cap.
TL;DR: Extractor trick should help in both instances. The difference between them is pretty marginal, so do whichever you like.
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On March 18 2010 05:28 Cyclon wrote:
Comparing Overlord then Extractor to Overlord no Extractor:
Early drone has mined approximately 12s, so 12 minerals. Expected profit of about a few minerals, but more importantly your next larva keeps coming quicker. In theory, until you stop producing drones with that larva, each drone can come 12 seconds earlier, so +12 minerals profit for as long as you want to keep those drones coming. You can also pump out other units quicker obviously, but the advantage is not quantifiable. As soon as your hatchery hits 3 larvae at a time, the advantage is lost.
Comparing Extractor to Overlord vs Overlord to Extractor:
At 39s, OtE gets its two drones up, while EtO takes another 7s to get three up. EtO gets its 11th drone approximately 10s earlier, so it is 10 minerals ahead until the OtE gets its two drones up. OtE's two drones mine approximately 14 minerals before EtO's drones come up, putting OtE about 4 minerals ahead. However, due to earlier larva usage, EtO will always be about 5 seconds ahead in drone production, which equals 5 more minerals for every further drone you build. Same situation as mentioned above, advantage is lost as soon as you hit the larvae cap.
Can you go into detail about those bolded parts? I don't see how you get to that result.
Both extractor trick builds should never get to 3 larvae, so after drone 14 is being morphed both builds should (still) get larvae at the exact same timings and will also have the minerals and supply to morph drones. So neither build will be ahead in drones after that point.
EtO is ahead for a short time but you already considered that (+10), so that can't be used again.
Then OtE is ahead for a while, earning +14, and after that the builds are equal. So my conclusion would be "OtE = EtO + 4".
NE (no extractor) is only larva-blocked for ~2 seconds (don't know for sure, but certainly not 12). As before, NE is almost equal to EtO and OtE except that NE has a short delay in larvae and 3 minerals less than OtE.
In terms of minerals:
OtE = EtO + 4 = NE + 3 (+ ~2)
In terms of larvae:
OtE = EtO = NE + ~2sec
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Hmmm... yep you are right. I was figuring things out with the assumption that you started each of those builds with 3 larvae each, but that is obviously incorrect.
So in the end, we still have extractor trick > no extractor trick, but the difference is much more minute.
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I think it is very effective considering its insta building when you click the geyser.
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I like to do this and a 14 pool. I also tend to drone scout too, so I'm sure that extra drone helps out while the other one is away.
Paranoid everyones going for the cheese...
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So 12/10 is somewhat faster then?
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On March 09 2010 13:26 onmach wrote:
Doing a trick with one extractor just feels right. If you don't do it, your queen tends to want to start building awkward timing like 17 supply, and so you end up having to make a choice of either not building a drone or delaying your queen.
I just did a test, just one attempt per style, there's probably some variation. I did it until 2:24 to be sure that no build was supply blocked.
Standard without trick.
2:24 I had 16 supply (1 drone @ 60%) and 335 mins (total ~1115)
One drone trick to 11 supply, then overlord
2:24 I had 17 supply (1 drone @ 15%) and 314 mins. (total ~1121)
Overlord at 10 then one drone trick.
2:24 I had 17 supply (1 drone @ 15%) and 309 mins. (total ~1116)
Total being the total minerals + cost in drones (estimated cost of partial drone). Since all of the results are within a single trip to a patch, it seems like it doesn't matter very much. I'm sure there was more error in my split than there was in the difference between these trials.
I was expecting more variation from that. Kind of disappointing.
Thanks for the testing I've always thought it doesn't make much of a difference.
Also on the minerals lost by canceling, it's 1 mineral if you cancel right away, 2 minerals for 2 tricks at the same time. However, because each drone trip brings in 5 minerals and everything in the game costs in increments of 25, you're effectively losing 5 minerals whether you 1 trick or 2 trick.
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Interesting, but you are all considering only 10+ something build. What about the 9 overlord build?
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I've been doing 9 overlord for about 20 games now trying to get a zvz where the other guy goes 10 overlord efficiently so I can compare our economies, but I have not had any luck finding a suitable replay.
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When I was new to zerg I was doing it in sc2 but I stopped after 10-20 games of it. I didn't do math but it just didn't seem as good in this game. I've been doing well since then (Rank 3 in my plat division) but I really doubt this had much of an impact overall.
Just do what feels right for your playstyle.
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Just did a test on a build order map by qxc with a timer.
1. 10 extractor trick, 11 overlord, 14 pool
Pool time: 1:17
Resources at 2 minutes: ~220 minerals / 16 drones / 2 overlords
2. 10 overlord, no extractor trick, 13 pool
Pool time: 1:22
Resources at 2 minutes: ~220 / 16 drones / 2 overlords
3. 10 overlord, extractor trick, 14 pool
Pool time: 1:20 (you can GREATLY reduce this if you don't build the 14th drone)
Resources at 2 minutes: ~250 / 16 drones / 2 overlords
Conclusion: All are basically the same, 10 overlord, extractor trick is marginally optimal
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Russian Federation125 Posts
There is an article about economy in sc2 on sc2tv.ru forum, it's written in russian so i won't post whole math just the result of using extra drones.
Economy; Extra+12 over > 9 over ~ 10 over (> means about +20minerals)
Timing: 9 over > 10 over ~ Extra+12 over(> means about +3sec)
If u use only 1 extra drone than the difference will be even smaller.
When canceling building u lose 25% of its cost. So 1 canceled ext costs 6minerals.
Also this trick can be used in late game when u have 200 limit and lots of minerals. U can start building 20 spores for ex order 20more limit army and cancel 20spores. U will lose 375min(isn't that much for huge macro game) but u will have 220\200 limit.
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There's a fairly comprehensive thread around here somewhere (you'll have to search it yourself, I'm lazy) that showed building an overlord on 9 is pretty much always (very slightly) superior to 10OL-extractor trick, and that both of those are superior to 10-extractor trick-OL.
I don't think that thread tested double-extractor trick though.
Canceling the extractor gives 19 of 25 back, but costs are all multiples of 5, and drones always return 5 at a time, so 4 minerals is basically the same as zero minerals, making the effective cost of the extractor trick 10 minerals instead of 6.
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My tests showed no difference to speak of between 9 ov, 10 ov, or single extractor trick (all within half a second, so basically down to my micro). The double extractor trick was hands-down worse (I microed both extractor tricks very well due to being good at them and running at low speed ).
Since the larva count (I noted when larvae popped), mineral count, supply, and pool timings were all identical, 9ov is better, since your second ovie gets out and about that much sooner.
I ran the tests with speed down to "normal" so I could be sure to micro it right. I'm a diamond zerg player.
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I use double extractor trick when I do 14 Pool FE, this way you can have optimal drone mining non-stop without having to worry about supply. 12 Drones will mine you up to 100, you build an overlord, and just before he's finished you will have 200 to start your pool, and three drones later 300 to expand. It all times out very nicely from my experience to do FE. However if I am not going an FE build than I find 9 OL, 11/12 gas/pool and this works much better for a one base opening. Which is mathematically the best I'm not sure, but form my experience this is what works.
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On June 02 2010 04:56 SichuanPanda wrote:
I use double extractor trick when I do 14 Pool FE, this way you can have optimal drone mining non-stop without having to worry about supply. 12 Drones will mine you up to 100, you build an overlord, and just before he's finished you will have 200 to start your pool, and three drones later 300 to expand. It all times out very nicely from my experience to do FE. However if I am not going an FE build than I find 9 OL, 11/12 gas/pool and this works much better for a one base opening. Which is mathematically the best I'm not sure, but form my experience this is what works.
Isn't that a 12pool into 14hatch?
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The only reason you want to be doing extractor trick aside from getting queen/lings when your supply blocked, is to go 11/10 pool.
It's been tested by many people, including me(and I've done the extractor trick at least 4 thousand times by now)
9/10 overlord will increase your minerals by like 15-30 or something. Plus your overlord gets a head start and ..you don't need to do extractor trick.
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at 10/10 I go double extractor trick and get 12/10 then get lord and by the time lord gets out I can build a pool an pump out drones, @ 17/18 the pool is done and I build my extractor, queen, and lord.
EDIT: yeah, so pretty much what SichuanPanda said
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Double extractor trick always puts you behind in econ if you do it with mining drones.
Has anyone tested doing it with the scouting drone(s), or maybe even doing a triple trick this way?
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On June 02 2010 07:04 Pwere wrote:
Double extractor trick always puts you behind in econ if you do it with mining drones.
Has anyone tested doing it with the scouting drone(s), or maybe even doing a triple trick this way?
Ok, I gotta say.
That's a pretty damn slick thought, even if it might not be applicable very often (if ever).
Scout enemy base, gas steal for extractor trick, cancel before dying or finishing, resume scouting.
You, sir, are my hero for at least a day.
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EPT
