"Even more spiky spines Everywhereee" Released on: Global - UNLOCKED 2015 SEASON 2 & 3 LADDER MAP
Oh ah Im back with a brand ne-- Remade track! Some might remember the old version of this map, which I submitted to the Team Liquid Map Contest#4! Sadly it didn't (barely I'm told) make the cut into the testing phase. But still there was some interest in seeing the map succeed and after plenty of talking, feedbacking and more testing, I've come up with this new version, Cactus Valley RE.
Bigger map bounds, longer distances, easier third(s) and complete rework of the terrain decorations*, I feel this new version is so much better than the previous one. Still, things can yet change, and I would love to hear feedback about my newest creation, Cactus Valley RE.
Minus the cacti... I kinda cheated on that one! Copy+paste ftw!
Map Description:
Scouting is vital to figuring out where to expand next, as all spawns are unlocked! By controlling the Xel'naga tower, movement trough the middle can easily be kept an eye on. That is untill the outskirt rocks are destroyed and new paths are formed.
By Ferisii
Update Log:
~2.1 Made the middle decoration less blinding to look at. ~2.0 Walling-off the natural expansion area has been made slightly easier and clearer on where buildings potentially can be placed. + Show Spoiler +
I'm looking at you, LE version
Aesthetics on the map have been improved upon. The minimap have been made easier to read, specially the middle area. Updated Battle.net screenshot showcase. ~1.7 Added in actual team spawn locations. No more shall people fear of cross-spawning allies! Refined the painted no-creep- and pathing layer. Removed two types of doodads completely from the map. Some unpathable cliffs have been made clearer, that they aren't pathable. (Ground units) Removed all descriptions in the battle.net screenshot showcase. ~1.6 Smashed a bug which prevented the new map description from appearing. Minor terrain fixes. ~1.5 Updated map- and showcase descriptions. Fixed some cacti that were colliding with air units. Reduced the map file size slightly. Minor detail fixes. + Show Spoiler [Click for more patch notes.] +
~1.4 Reduced the size of the natural expansion area slightly. Minor changes to terrain and decorations. ~1.3 Removed the huge rocks near the expansion entrances that blocked the pathway to the middle. Added small pathways on the outskirts of the middle area, which are blocked by 6x6 rocks. Slightly moved the man-made buildings near the Xel'naga Tower due to the above changes. Updated Battle.net screenshot showscase. ~1.2 Complete rework of the middle area. Movement flow now moves towards the middle area, giving the Xel'naga tower much more value to hold. New aesthetics has been made for the middle. Updated Battle.net screenshot showscase. Reduced the amount of doodads slightly. ~1.1 Moved the natural expansion one inch closer to the entrance, making it easier for Zerg to wall off. Reduced random generated foliage by 50% Fixed a bunch of cacti having issues with zerg creep. More unfortunate creatures has been caught by the birds, who's related to the Shrike species. ~1.0 Non-beta release.
this is a great map. the aesthetics are amazing and the map layout seems very smooth.
optional thirds on a rotational symmetry map is always crucial in my opinion. your map makes great use of that. taking a fourth and further bases will feel decently smooth without a huge need to really extend yourself for one.
only slight issues is the middle. id make 2 more openings to the very center so its a perfect symmetry in the middle instead of 2 sides being left out.
otherwise, an awesome map. how this makes it onto the ladder, would be a pleasure playing this map. 9/10
Agreeing with FlaSh here, nicely done. Think the 3rds are a lot more hold-able now for a defender. Seeing this transformation makes me want to work on some old maps again.
Love the map, the aesthetics really pull you into the environment. Layout is super effective.
On January 09 2015 07:18 FlaShFTW wrote: only slight issues is the middle. id make 2 more openings to the very center so its a perfect symmetry in the middle instead of 2 sides being left out.
I still want give the middle design a chance, as I couldn't figure out a situation where it would be completly "gameplay-breaking". Obviously there's always the popular issues like swarmhost, protoss deathballs and etc. But what map dosn't already have those? Again, if there's a real legitimate issue that can be solved by opening it up, then I'll look in to it.
Also a fully rotational symmetry map gets slightly boring, atleast for me.
@Semmo It has always been 16base. Only difference is that the gold bases have been converted to blue now. I did try once to make a 4p 12 base map symmetry to work, but I couldn't, as distance, fairness and drop harrass issues became too much of a problem. Would need to figure out a completely new map design to make that work.
Update 1.1 pushed out! Made it easier for Zerg to do a wall off at the entrance to the natural. (The zerg creep just couldn't reach properly)
One thing I would love to hear about, is how you people's game performance is on this map when comparing to other maps. Like, how long does it take to load the map? Are there some areas where your fps takes a dip? etc. From my own research, where I compared performance between my map and the upcomming new season maps, it looks good, even with graphical settings turned to maximum. Home-made-research results.
Yeah, at the moment I'm not worrying too much about it. But, if it ends up being too distracting then I'll darken its colours to make its silhouette become more with the background.
I've thought about what you should do with the center quite a bit. Here's a few things I hope we can agree on: - The watchtower in the center doesn't actually add much to the map - The center obstructions are okay, but there's room for improvement
When I'm thinking about how to give more value to the center I'm thinking about ways to incentivise players to take the longer path through the center to gain an advantage as opposed to the fastest route. Of course, I'm not talking about cross-spawn here where the center plays a large role, rather when players spawn next to each other. I dont have any graphics software with me (as I'm on holiday) so bare with me and use your imagination.
Case 1: Both players take the third away from their opponent (i.e. PvZ, sometimes PvT/TvZ)
Draw a line between the thirds. You can see that the obstructions in the center get in the way somewhat. And that it is shorter to attack through the rocks leading out of the natural. Not necessarily a bad thing, merely an observation. The watchtower adds almost nothing in this scenario. Players are most likely going to be controlling the space outside their natural rocks to defend their natural/third from one location.
Case 2: One player expands towards, one player expands away (i.e. most TvZ, some PvT)
Draw a line between the thirds. The aggressive expanding player is looking to smash through the natural area before the rocks (as opposed to in front of the rocks in the previous scenario). The center is reduced to a flanking/run by function as opposed to a position with strategic value.
Observation: both lines between thirds *could* be covered by a watchtower giving incredible power to whoever controls that location. Perhaps it would be interesting to play with the center along these lines? Sure generally people dislike strong watchtowers, but perhaps some clever terrain/pathing could be employed to make fights over these locations really meaningful and important. It's been a long time since we've seen a map with strategically important locations like this, so I think it's worth considering even if the idea seems a bit crazy.
Eyy, Get back onto your holiday Plexa! It's a time of relaxation and having fun, not thinking about map design! But, thank you very much for taking your time on writing that for me. I very much appreciate it.
And yes, I agree with both of your assumptions, in that the watchtower doesn't add much to the map, and the center itself could use much of an improvement. Hell, even a new design.
I presumed while making this feedback image, that you're talking about a possible 7 o'clock vs. 5 o'clock scenario (mirrored works too) like this.
Example
A problem that arises with the new watchtower location, which by no means is spot on the picture, just one of many, is that there's no good equal coverage spot for both sides. Either the coverage favors one side or another which just doesn't work out.
Currently I'm thinking about making it fully rotational symmetry, so at least the tower "usefullness" is equal for all player corners. Maybe even have some small LoS blocked zones outside the walls, that can be revealed by controlling the tower. Ugh, just don't know yet. Many ideas are flying trough my head for a new design. A design that somehow helps with the Case2 scenario. Damn you rotational symmetry map designs! It's tricky coming up with a good solution.
So I've been thinking a bit over possible middle design, that can help out on Close-spawn movement and also give meaning to controlling the middle zone. I figured that, if the middle, and specially the watchtower, should be of any use, then players should be slightly forced to move trough the area. Thus, I've come up with this possible design. PLEASE NOTE this is by any means not the final design.
Example 1
Pros: Watchtower value increased a ton due to being able to see All incoming units moving trough the middle. Close-spawn routes mostly unchanged, besides the offensive expand 2nd attack route (See previous post, Case2) Cons: Say a defending player wants to defend his 3rd by moving trough the middle from his natural, it'll take slightly more time to get there. Somewhat limited move-about in the middle now, due to all traffic having to go trough the middle.
Would love to hear what people think of this new design, and if the pros outweight the cons. Or if there's something else I should add to the design that'd make it better overall.
Another idea that people have come up with, is the idea of giving more value to the original middle design.
Example 2
Pros: Gives value to the watchtower due to giving sight and siege capabilities to whoever controls the middle. Cons: Close-spawn route issue still remains. Middle only becomes useful when players manages to control the extra base and only then. More bases to the map?
Adding this in here, as some people still like the idea behind the not-so-symmetry map design.
Alright, due to time limits I've gotten this idea about releasing an early test version of the new middle design, which can be found on all realms as "Cactus Valley RE_Mid Design Test"
temp. Cactus Valley RE_Mid Design Test
Tomorrow I'll do a full update with new images, battle.net images and video preview. Aslong I don't get distracted by work. If anyone happens to find any silly errors, gameplay issues and etc. I would love hear about it.
I played a game on the RE version today, and all I can say is I can't wait to play PvZ on this map (I played Iezael PvP but we both played the same style basically so Ican't say much about the map from that perspective).
Patch 1.2 has been pushed out and the main post has been fully updated to reflect that! Hopefully the middle area becomes more meaning to control with this new design.
Example 1 got me thinking, maybe something like this could be interesting
I think these rocks actually add a ton to the map, unlike most rocks. For the time being imagine you are bottom left vs bottom right, you now have two more or less immediately viable attack paths. Because the center is immediately accessible controlling the watch tower is important to spot movement through the center, but not all powerful because you can still take the low ground path.
Imagine your opponent is attacking through the low ground path, now you can destroy the rocks between your entrance to the high ground area and the ramp leading to the low ground. This opens up more accessible flank opportunities for Zerg (and to a lesser extent for other races) and some interesting fight possibilities! Similarly if the opponent is moving through the center destroying your rocks is advantageous so you can attack from multiple locations in the center (although you can't exactly flank, you still increase the surface area of your army). When both your rocks and your opponents rocks are destroyed then you have three attack paths between you and your opponent which have varying amount of utility depending on which expansions are taken.
Thanks for the feedback! I've implanted them in the newest version which can been seen in the main post. Which means... Patch 1.3 is out! Video update included.
The end results is quite different to how this map started out, but I really like how this turned out! Hopefully we get to see some games on it at some point in the future. I think there isn't much more you can do to make this map better through theorycraft!
Uhm its really nice gameplay-wise. Aesthetics could be better though. Will try to get some images in the next hours about it
Also
On January 22 2015 22:01 Plexa wrote: The end results is quite different to how this map started out, but I really like how this turned out! Hopefully we get to see some games on it at some point in the future. I think there isn't much more you can do to make this map better through theorycraft!
It sure has changed a lot indeed. And just because I like to keep old versions of my maps around, I can make this:
Showcase reel from the earliest version to version RE 1.3
Currently I'm now just tinkering with the details that are out of place and whatnot. But still, if there's any issues with the map, I Still would love to hear about them! Note to future self: Make an overview image whenever you make a new map version! So much time can be saved!
On January 22 2015 22:21 IeZaeL wrote: Uhm its really nice gameplay-wise. Aesthetics could be better though. Will try to get some images in the next hours about it
On January 22 2015 22:01 Plexa wrote: The end results is quite different to how this map started out, but I really like how this turned out! Hopefully we get to see some games on it at some point in the future. I think there isn't much more you can do to make this map better through theorycraft!
New and hopefully last patch has been pushed out, 1.4! Besides some minor detail changes, the natural area has been slightly reduced in size, to make it less easier to sneak in buildings. I'll make an updated map video preview tomorrow. Edit: Aaand done. Edit2: Ops, aren't the last patch after all! 1.5 will hit some time this week.
Well, damn. It only took... When did the Wings of Liberty beta start again? Oh well, I'm happy. Now, if people do find bugs, exploits and whatnot I may have overlooked, then you have to tell Blizzard and not me. Blizzard are the ones in charge of the Ladder version, not me.
I figured that, if people would want to practice/play on specific start positions, they wouldn't want to keep restarting till they got the right ones. So I decided to upload specific spawn-only variations onto battle.net!
Edit: Seeing as Blizzard uploaded a new version of Cactus Valley, I've decided to temporally take down the specific spawn versions till the new season starts.
Hey ferisii, I don't know if this is something you already know about but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. But I noticed when watching beta streamers that the walloff at the nat is messed up because of the rock doodads merged into the highground pod cliffs forming the choke. (It looks like a doodad footprint still checked issue.)
Since it's bliz' map in beta I guess they'd have to go through the motions to fix it but you might want to address on your end for now.
I just checked the bliz version available in hots and it has this same issue, where at least 1 square against the cliffs is unbuildable/unpathable. To be clear, you can still wall effectively but the choke is (I assume) smaller than intended. More importantly, it looks like buildable/pathable ground but it isn't.
Yeah... Fairly annoying issue, specially to me. Though, it's not a footprint issue but a painted pathing one. I found said issue, and many others, on the first day Cactus Valley LE 1.0 got uploaded to the HotS servers. I have reported the issues to Blizzard in form of a bug list, which I hope they'll follow up on. The list can be viewed Here.
My only guess as to why they painted pathing there, was probably to make it slightly easier to wall off.
I think it's a puzzling design choice by them. Would be better to add a doodad to represent said pathing change so it doesn't look like there's an invisible wall to the players.
On April 03 2015 02:19 EatThePath wrote: Wait, they added painted pathing there? After looking at it, I thought it might be from a copy-paste that misplaced some doodads.
If that is intentional, ...just... why?
It's like they don't have a melee mapper in residence, or something.
Anyyyhow. I have updated the original version of Cactus Valley RE with improved aesthetics, easier to read minimap and made the natural expansion slightly easier to wall-off. Wall-off example below.
Click for comparison
Edit: Oh, and, Cactus Valley (currently the LE version) is being played in Starleague now!
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