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Map Jam & Challenge #5 - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
May 24 2013 01:49 GMT
#81
Ah yes, the good times are certainly fleeting in the mapping world these days.

Anyway if you want to know what I picked, I only ever vote for myself because I need the validation and probably something about my father leaving me as a kid and blah blah emotional scars blah blah

But seriously all the maps were pretty good and I'd say these events are quite successful at what they aim to do. The only thing that would be better is if we played some games on them for testing. I can't wait for the next map jam!
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
May 24 2013 04:31 GMT
#82
I definitely found ideas I want to steal in every map that was posted, which I love. Go mapjam!

I will also say I'm very confused by the number of votes that lore's map got. This is not meant to disparage lore's map at all, it's just strange how voting works out with these things; like, how to you decide what to vote for from so many close choices? I don't think we need to flame anyone. I like what lore said.

In fact I was so torn with my votes because there were lots of ideas I wanted to reward and I really wanted to recognize some of the people who didn't have any votes in the poll, because it's nice to have that validation. cough fish cough. :D but it is.

So great job everybody!


I played a few games on my map. If you are really desperate, host your map in custom games and just wait for a joiner. You get a lot of super noobs, but even that can be useful. I found out that basically everyone was implicitly confused about my main entrance, and they walled off their natural leaving their main choke open. And took the 3rd as the natural. lol.


Can't wait for next mapjam, these are so great.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
May 24 2013 04:49 GMT
#83
I voted for Infallible but I could see voting for a few different ones. I dont think there was an overwhelming best.

It's not like it even matters much who wins :-P so w/e. Just a fun competition to see what we can come up with. And maybe if you like what you came up with then you make it into a full-blown map that you might not have made otherwise.

Another thing. I do think the person hosting the map jam should be able to "roll again" if the randomizer lands on a really dumb or overly restrictive topic. I think "no ramps" is pretty close to that line My reasoning being that almost every map here would be better with ramps somewhere on it.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
May 24 2013 04:51 GMT
#84
Thanks for the encouragement moskonia ^^

I think we should try and encourage each other to be candid about what we think, particularly in these exercises! We should also of course be consciously non-aggressive in our comments.

I like that 3 or 4 of us also went for multiple entrance mains. It's like as soon as you get away from "must be one ramp down into the natural" we start doing some really interesting things. Makes you wonder

About playing these, I'd be down for a session that we stream and play maps from the most recent jam after submissions close before voting ends.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 05:36:39
May 24 2013 05:33 GMT
#85
On May 24 2013 09:44 lorestarcraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 08:36 NewSunshine wrote:
I'm going to be the first one to say: I have no idea what those 9 people see in Lore's map, which is to say I have no idea why it's leading the vote. Visually, it's about as unattractive as it could possibly be, and with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map. Granted, these two aren't terribly important with a map jam, given the implementation of the topics can compensate for it. But the map doesn't even use the given topics in any noteworthy way, in fact nearly every other submission looks better in this regard. It looks more like a mediocre attempt at a standard map, contorted at the last minute to fit the topics. I don't get it.


Every other submission looks better? I didn't have time to do hardly any aesthetics, due to being out of town during half of the contest, and these aren't really about that anyway. In regards to your attack on my layout, most of these layouts are not fine-tuned very much + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
, but I guarantee you 100% that my layout would play 10x better than your 2-base all-in map. I really don't know why you actually thought attacking my map in this thread would be a good idea, or what that would achieve. At one time I had a healthy respect for your skill, but when you put out stuff like this: + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
(not a map-jam map) and then come after me, complaining about WHAT THE VOTERS CHOSE (along with your map) then I really don't know what that says about you. These map-jams are about having a good time and hoping that what we did strikes a cord with people. I'm just a guy trying to follow my passion and share it with the rest of the community and starcraft players as a whole. So, please, just lay down the ax and enjoy these times while we have them.

I don't see why you take to the defense so much, I'm being as objective as I can be. And yes, in terms of using the topics in an interesting way, the other submissions do look better, at least to me, aesthetically as well. That's what the optional topics were for btw. Clearly I can't speak for anyone else, though I will say in discussions I've had that other people tend to agree. You're also not the only one who was busy the day of, I had an 8-hour shift of work before I could start my map, at 1 in the morning.

And yes, I know this is all for kicks and giggles. Guess which map I voted for?

You really don't want people to start seeing you in the wrong light, and with what happened on SC2melee.net, you really started off on the wrong foot. Thanks for attacking me, by the way.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
May 24 2013 06:28 GMT
#86
On May 24 2013 08:36 NewSunshine wrote:
I'm going to be the first one to say: I have no idea what those 9 people see in Lore's map, which is to say I have no idea why it's leading the vote. Visually, it's about as unattractive as it could possibly be, and with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map. Granted, these two aren't terribly important with a map jam, given the implementation of the topics can compensate for it. But the map doesn't even use the given topics in any noteworthy way, in fact nearly every other submission looks better in this regard. It looks more like a mediocre attempt at a standard map, contorted at the last minute to fit the topics. I don't get it.

Dude, it's a map jam. Are you expecting people to have amazingly refined layouts and aesthetics completed in 24 hours? :c I'm sure you'd agree that every map could use some refinement, but that's not the point of the map jam. I also don't see why you thought it necessary to bash a map that attempted to take wild concepts and apply them in a practical manner. I personally think it's this practical application that's winning people over (well, at least that's true for myself, anyway ).

Anywho, I think my favourites are Lore's and EatThePath's maps. This is assuming the spawns on ETP's is top-left/bottom-right. The tar pits on Fatam's map intrigue me, but I'd wanna test the feature myself before really giving my opinion on whether the map looks good/bad to me.
Twitter: @iamcaustic
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
May 24 2013 06:39 GMT
#87
On May 24 2013 15:28 iamcaustic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 08:36 NewSunshine wrote:
I'm going to be the first one to say: I have no idea what those 9 people see in Lore's map, which is to say I have no idea why it's leading the vote. Visually, it's about as unattractive as it could possibly be, and with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map. Granted, these two aren't terribly important with a map jam, given the implementation of the topics can compensate for it. But the map doesn't even use the given topics in any noteworthy way, in fact nearly every other submission looks better in this regard. It looks more like a mediocre attempt at a standard map, contorted at the last minute to fit the topics. I don't get it.

Dude, it's a map jam. Are you expecting people to have amazingly refined layouts and aesthetics completed in 24 hours? :c I'm sure you'd agree that every map could use some refinement, but that's not the point of the map jam. I also don't see why you thought it necessary to bash a map that attempted to take wild concepts and apply them in a practical manner. I personally think it's this practical application that's winning people over (well, at least that's true for myself, anyway ).

Anywho, I think my favourites are Lore's and EatThePath's maps. This is assuming the spawns on ETP's is top-left/bottom-right. The tar pits on Fatam's map intrigue me, but I'd wanna test the feature myself before really giving my opinion on whether the map looks good/bad to me.

I did say those things aren't important for a map jam, I think. I also said that the map doesn't really have a "wild concept" to compensate. It looks like any other 2p map, only with no ramps. No experimentation with islands, pathable lowground for reapers and colossi, or anything really noteworthy. I choose to ignore stuff like how the 3rd base looks like a pain in the ass, because that's not really the point. It doesn't push any boundaries, which is what I do want to see.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
May 24 2013 06:42 GMT
#88
From the start, map jams have always been 0% about aesthetics.. so to criticize any map jam based on that is kinda silly. You're free to add as few or as many as you want, but they're not supposed to have any bearing on the judging.

Also, I think it's in the TL rules about criticizing without specifics.. you can get warned/temp-banned if you're just like "blah blah is terrible!" without saying why. It's inflammatory and not helpful. Not that I'm really a stickler for the rules, but there is a reason that rule is there. People get pissed if you diss their shit without saying why ("with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map" isn't a specific reason).

To then play coy is even douchier, since I think you're intelligent enough to realize that such a comment might stir things up a little. For instance, if I went into a random person's map thread and simply posted "this map is bad" you can bet I'd get a warning for it (with a lot of map cave knives at my throat as well, if it was an established mapper's thread ).

When you take every possible opportunity to attack anything Galaxy and then play the innocent every single time.. well, I don't know if anyone is buying it anymore

TLDR be a better human being. All your passive-agressive vendetta stuff is unwarranted/makes no sense and I'm sick of the drama (I'm sure some others are as well).
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 07:05:56
May 24 2013 07:02 GMT
#89
On May 24 2013 15:42 Fatam wrote:
From the start, map jams have always been 0% about aesthetics.. so to criticize any map jam based on that is kinda silly. You're free to add as few or as many as you want, but they're not supposed to have any bearing on the judging.

To be fair it seemed like the aesthetics themes were meant to win you "funsies" points, and a few people put in a fair amount of effort. Not that it's a big deal.

Wow, I really like what RFD* pointed out. We should definitely be capable of open discussion. In fact looking over the last several posts even though things got touchy I think everyone concerned can comfortably come back to plain dialogue sans flame. And in that spirit... :D

+ Show Spoiler +

I didn't vote for fatam's because the map itself didn't really seem to stand out, I guess? The non-rampiness doesn't really seem to matter. But absolutely some cool ideas, and it also has nice simple aesthetics. I thought the tower used in conjunction with the alternate entrance to the main was an interesting choice, especially because it watches the path the attacker would take to bounce between the two attack points. I'll say again (I think I said it before) that the reduction to absolute low speed and not % is super super smart and makes the mire mechanic worth really looking in to. It also makes me think about a safer version of the mechanic "enemy repulsion field" where your main slows enemies but not you, and vice versa. If only we could actually put these things in maps and be taken seriously. =\

I like the shape of lore's map but I think it has to be a bit taller and needs another base. I feel it's unreasonable to zerg to have a 4th base that's already far forward and then no good 5th. The natural choke seems small for no reason but that's one of those easy fix whatevers. Space could be used better to create more interesting positions. The flatness is more stylistic than relevant. But this actually ends up being the "best" "standard" map that was presented and has some nice features too.
attempted to take wild concepts and apply them in a practical manner

I think that's a really cool thing to see in a mapjam. I always feel compelled to go nuts because, well, it's the perfect opportunity to do so. But it's also a very interesting question to see what kind of standard map you can make with wonky limitations, and that should teach us some things in the process.

Fish7's map is very unconventional with the way the 3rd works "out in the open" even though it has reasonable chokiness on the entrances actually. I can't get over the strangeness when I look at it although I think this style should be explored a lot more. The "concept" of the map comes across really well, which is rare and awesome. The island divided by a jungle wall with a hole in the middle and two beach routes on either side. I think this map would produce really interesting games.

RFD put together nice proportions and routing to make neat concepts into more than gimmicks. I would love to see what this map turns into without arbitrary limits, and some decoration.

grebliv's map has a cool oldschool approach. I wonder if this would actually work. I just worry about zerg's ground reinforce once they have to fight over bases in the open middle, but I guess nydus rally + hotkey + D occasionally would be fine. Theoretically this map would play out either very strategically or very technically or both, and might be pure awesome. The close lowground 3rd island needs unbuildable plates blocking the CC spot I think (rocks is too much).


This is getting long, I will give more feedback for others after I take a break.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
May 24 2013 07:04 GMT
#90
On May 24 2013 15:42 Fatam wrote:
From the start, map jams have always been 0% about aesthetics.. so to criticize any map jam based on that is kinda silly. You're free to add as few or as many as you want, but they're not supposed to have any bearing on the judging.

I know. It's why I said it's not important. I merely made an observation at the start of the post.

On May 24 2013 15:42 Fatam wrote:
Also, I think it's in the TL rules about criticizing without specifics.. you can get warned/temp-banned if you're just like "blah blah is terrible!" without saying why. It's inflammatory and not helpful. Not that I'm really a stickler for the rules, but there is a reason that rule is there. People get pissed if you diss their shit without saying why ("with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map" isn't a specific reason).

To then play coy is even douchier, since I think you're intelligent enough to realize that such a comment might stir things up a little. For instance, if I went into a random person's map thread and simply posted "this map is bad" you can bet I'd get a warning for it (with a lot of map cave knives at my throat as well, if it was an established mapper's thread ).

When you take every possible opportunity to attack anything Galaxy and then play the innocent every single time.. well, I don't know if anyone is buying it anymore

TLDR be a better human being. All your passive-agressive vendetta stuff is unwarranted/makes no sense and I'm sick of the drama (I'm sure some others are as well).

I don't see how that rule would get me into any trouble in this case, my comment about the layout was secondary to the point of the post, similar to the aesthetic. If you want me to go into detail I can, however. Aside from that, any jabs I've taken at Galaxy were either in jest, or well and truly earned. Go back and look. To be honest, you guys have been playing a series of cards that doesn't make me, or one of many other community members, very happy with you. I'm all for burying it all and moving on, but are you? It's only as much drama as you guys make it, I'm not attacking anybody on a cosmic whim, nor is anybody else.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 07:18:08
May 24 2013 07:12 GMT
#91
On May 24 2013 15:39 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 15:28 iamcaustic wrote:
On May 24 2013 08:36 NewSunshine wrote:
I'm going to be the first one to say: I have no idea what those 9 people see in Lore's map, which is to say I have no idea why it's leading the vote. Visually, it's about as unattractive as it could possibly be, and with regard to its layout it isn't even that good a map. Granted, these two aren't terribly important with a map jam, given the implementation of the topics can compensate for it. But the map doesn't even use the given topics in any noteworthy way, in fact nearly every other submission looks better in this regard. It looks more like a mediocre attempt at a standard map, contorted at the last minute to fit the topics. I don't get it.

Dude, it's a map jam. Are you expecting people to have amazingly refined layouts and aesthetics completed in 24 hours? :c I'm sure you'd agree that every map could use some refinement, but that's not the point of the map jam. I also don't see why you thought it necessary to bash a map that attempted to take wild concepts and apply them in a practical manner. I personally think it's this practical application that's winning people over (well, at least that's true for myself, anyway ).

Anywho, I think my favourites are Lore's and EatThePath's maps. This is assuming the spawns on ETP's is top-left/bottom-right. The tar pits on Fatam's map intrigue me, but I'd wanna test the feature myself before really giving my opinion on whether the map looks good/bad to me.

I did say those things aren't important for a map jam, I think. I also said that the map doesn't really have a "wild concept" to compensate. It looks like any other 2p map, only with no ramps. No experimentation with islands, pathable lowground for reapers and colossi, or anything really noteworthy. I choose to ignore stuff like how the 3rd base looks like a pain in the ass, because that's not really the point. It doesn't push any boundaries, which is what I do want to see.

Yeah for sure, but I think a lot of that stuff is stylistic difference, and a lot of other maps (including yours) explored those alternative avenues. I think your legitimate criticism kind of got lost in the mail, so to speak, because of the sentence I bolded.

On the topic of creative approach, this is why Lore isn't the only mapmaker out there; we need guys like you who take different approaches to crazy concepts. However, it's also good to have people like Lore who try to take these same crazy concepts and try to apply them sparingly. This range of application helps us learn and grow as mapmakers, which I think is what the spirit of Map Jam is all about.


On May 24 2013 15:42 Fatam wrote:
When you take every possible opportunity to attack anything Galaxy and then play the innocent every single time.. well, I don't know if anyone is buying it anymore

By the way, can we stop with these comments? I'm with NewSunshine when he says that it doesn't produce anything but negativity between us. We haven't been subject to anything that any other mapmaker hasn't been (e.g. Semmo and Fruitland, anyone?).
Twitter: @iamcaustic
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
May 24 2013 07:24 GMT
#92
BUT IT HAS FRUIT
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 07:35:27
May 24 2013 07:27 GMT
#93
On May 24 2013 16:24 EatThePath wrote:
BUT IT HAS FRUIT

Exactly.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
May 24 2013 07:35 GMT
#94
On May 24 2013 16:12 iamcaustic wrote:
By the way, can we stop with these comments? I'm with NewSunshine when he says that it doesn't produce anything but negativity between us. We haven't been subject to anything that any other mapmaker hasn't been (e.g. Semmo and Fruitland, anyone?).

More or less, yeah. The thing is, at one point there was the whole "we're being attacked because we're new" spat, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and really only fuels more shit-tossing. If you guys stop looking for drama, and just focus on making the maps and improving, you guys will find a great community welcoming you. You guys have potential, but you have to work at it, it doesn't happen in a week, or a month, or even a year sometimes. It's just how it works.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
May 24 2013 07:38 GMT
#95
On May 24 2013 16:35 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 16:12 iamcaustic wrote:
By the way, can we stop with these comments? I'm with NewSunshine when he says that it doesn't produce anything but negativity between us. We haven't been subject to anything that any other mapmaker hasn't been (e.g. Semmo and Fruitland, anyone?).

More or less, yeah. The thing is, at one point there was the whole "we're being attacked because we're new" spat, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and really only fuels more shit-tossing. If you guys stop looking for drama, and just focus on making the maps and improving, you guys will find a great community welcoming you. You guys have potential, but you have to work at it, it doesn't happen in a week, or a month, or even a year sometimes. It's just how it works.

Agree completely; I've told the guys this as well, so hopefully this is a topic that doesn't need to be discussed again in the future.
Twitter: @iamcaustic
moskonia
Profile Joined January 2011
Israel1448 Posts
May 24 2013 16:20 GMT
#96
On May 24 2013 13:51 RFDaemoniac wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement moskonia ^^

I think we should try and encourage each other to be candid about what we think, particularly in these exercises! We should also of course be consciously non-aggressive in our comments.

I like that 3 or 4 of us also went for multiple entrance mains. It's like as soon as you get away from "must be one ramp down into the natural" we start doing some really interesting things. Makes you wonder

About playing these, I'd be down for a session that we stream and play maps from the most recent jam after submissions close before voting ends.

I think that if anyone that votes would say why they voted it would be really good, since this will give excellent feedback - "why your map is good", unlike normal feedback which is - "why your map is bad".
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
May 24 2013 18:44 GMT
#97
I voted for EatThePath's Infallible. I think it had a similar spirit to my intentions, making a map where air and drops are rewarded but aren't necessary, but was more cleanly executed and a little closer to standard. You have a lot of options for expanding, which makes me happy. I like player choice

I also like NewSunshine's semi-island and island base as a 3rd/4th set up. It, too, allows you to be pretty safe while going for air/drops. I'd like to see the center flipped or something, as all of the bases aside from the first 4 are ambiguous to a point of never being taken, and I think this weakens the map considerably. The attack path pattern is pretty sexy though. The movement itself is very aesthetic.

I already mentioned that I like the in-base XNT covered by rocks that exposes the second entrance to the main from Fatam's Monkey Business. I also think the two collapsible towers to take a forward third are very cool. They allow a Protoss to take an earlier third against a ling/muta zerg, or a meching terran to take a forward third by creating nice choked up terrain, without having too much of a negative effect in other matchups.

@EatThePath: I think terrain that only slows down enemy units is one of the more interesting pieces we could come up with. Even if it doesn't take foothold it starcraft I'm sure it'll be out there eventually.

I think The_Templar's map is also very interesting. The air rush distance is SOOO short, I'm not sure we've had experience with this since scrap station, and I for one would love to see how it works out now. Unfortunately anything past the first 3 bases seems impossible to hold, except for maybe sneaking an island base. I think this could be cleaned up a bit to be more useful.

I really like the island map with a large piece of terrain in the center, such that you are forced to go drops or air to start, but a large ground army can get a lot done in the late game. Grebliv and Coppermantis both have interesting takes on this. I like the main/nat setup in Capitalism a lot. There could be some nice dancing with reaper harass, and the mineral line at the nat is a little vulnerable, so you could perhaps warp in stalkers on the lowground from your nat to harass the mineral line at your opponent's nat fairly early in the game without threatening endgame.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 23:56:31
May 24 2013 23:51 GMT
#98
On May 25 2013 01:20 moskonia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 13:51 RFDaemoniac wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement moskonia ^^

I think we should try and encourage each other to be candid about what we think, particularly in these exercises! We should also of course be consciously non-aggressive in our comments.

I like that 3 or 4 of us also went for multiple entrance mains. It's like as soon as you get away from "must be one ramp down into the natural" we start doing some really interesting things. Makes you wonder

About playing these, I'd be down for a session that we stream and play maps from the most recent jam after submissions close before voting ends.

I think that if anyone that votes would say why they voted it would be really good, since this will give excellent feedback - "why your map is good", unlike normal feedback which is - "why your map is bad".

Well, sometimes you get good feedback too, but not as much, so it'd definitely be nice to hear for a change.

Okay on with my review of all the submissions since I didn't want to leave anyone out.

+ Show Spoiler +

Templar's map definitely has some issues due to spacing, including goofy ones like you can blink between the mains. But this is adjustable so the concept is more the point I think. I really like the idea of a tall skinny mirror map. Maybe the close islands should be south of the main, allowing a shorter ground distance on a map that has a huge U shape path. I could see a stable meta on this map involving a timing where you have a lot of static defense at the edge of your main/nat/island and then the compositions transition to a ground war in the north, letting you make super sweet lategame terrain that you probably couldn't do on another more standard map.

I love the clean feel of Unvatank's super jungle sands, and the name lol. I ruled out voting for it because the ground 4th base is also the last base, and too close to the enemy ground 3rd, and I am strict about these things because I think it's unfair to zerg and not great design. However there is certainly room for a map that has these features, and because of the island here it makes it a lot less foregone conclusion. The alternate main entrance/pathway is a nice touch in the same vein. Very likeable map and would be a nice ladder style sweet and simple kind of map to have in a pool. The islands should be far less rock-blocked though.

Ruinsteel put together a fresh version of the metropolis style, which is something worth saying. This map would create some interesting build order situations depending on spawns, and I think we would see interesting deviations from standard versions of things we know. Like skytoss in close positions might get tempest faster for harass, and they would also get a robo faster to take the island 3rd. Super easy to kill rocks with void rays. So while we see skytoss games this would provide new areas to explore, which is cool. The 5 base arc also acts very differently in cross or closeair spawns. Like you put static defense in your main naturally, which means later in the game the 5th bases are more naturally taken across the arc given your main is already defended, and this feels safe in closeair spawns. But in cross spawns taking your 5th so close by air from the opponent's main seems much more dangerous and static defense isn't warranted like it is protecting your main the whole game. So I think you'd see a lot more usage of the islands in cross spawns to maintain a better center of mass. That kind of spawn dependent variety that is encouraged but not mandated is pretty cool, and I like how it plays up the islands. I also like how the "isolated" middle bowl is actually a great position even though it's removed from blocking movement across the direct pathways unless you reposition.

Copper's map is as someone else mentioned like greblivs but very different. I like that the 3rd attaches to the mainland. Not sure I like that there are island areas again after that on either side. The big split path really encourages air even after you move to the mainland phase of the game, which is cool, but makes things feel kind of cheesy too, I guess? Not sure. On second thought the idea of a quick 2nd island 4th off the back of whatever tech got you down the 3rd would be pretty cool, so that appeals to me. I wish the map had more interaction available for ground armies; it sort of forces you to go there at a certain point but the results would be quite swingy. Like you should either stick to air and win or pull off a lategame ground switch and win, but there's not much wiggle there to fight it out.

moskonia wins the keeping-it-real award. :D I recommend using different colours in the future and drawing out the mineral lines and geysers to make the map easier to read, but that's just nitpicking. I don't like how compact the first 4 bases are on this map, I'd really like to see more separation between the bases outside the main choke. I also generally don't like the placement of the corner 5th base, but this could easily change if it was a real map with more terrain drawn in. The 6th base placement is working towards creating the shifting axis dynamic I love, but again not sure without more fleshed out terrain. I do really like the pathable highground placements though. I'd be interested to see what this map turned into if was more than a diagram.

Ahola, lol. Has some really nice ideas and I like the dynamics crossing the map. Probably wouldn't play out very well due to some specific problems though. Floating CC to gold for a 3rd is pretty dicey. Also having the 3rd by ground able to be closed off by rock tower is something I think we should just not use. It's really easy for terran to abuse this, and plenty of other situations as well. Unless the 3rd is extremely easy, this should be avoided. In this case the ground distance is already kinda far and also the route is open, so it's just asking for abuse to take that base at a normal early-ish macro 3rd timing. Which points this map towards 2 base style, so idk. The close island 3rd with the cliff is a neat idea, but it's far too protected by the ground 3rd as a 4th base. If you got the island 3rd up and running, the 4th is nearly automatic with little more required -- in fact it buffers your island cash flow. This would need to be moved around I think. It's one of these maps where I love all the ideas but I don't think they're calibrated well, but in the short timeframe of a mapjam it's understandable, especially when they aren't standard features but very different dynamics than we usually analyze.

I guess I'll analyze my map a bit. Or just talk about it lol. Not super happy with the middle, since it's kind of monolithic and plain. The towers are so dominant too. However it works very well for the map concept, especially with the long debris, and having something dependable (dominant towers, big open ground and chokes at the exterior, a simple outside path) I feel would let players use the island areas with more security and therefore panache and finesse, if that makes sense. Similarly, the middle is simple to let the early game features come to the forefront. I really like how the main/nat turned out, that was the beginning of the map. I knew I wanted a dropable natural that incentivized taking the corner double island as a strategic choice of 3rd that dovetails with defending the natural from drops, and leads you to a nice easy 4th as a reward if you can pull it off. The ground 3rd is close but in conjunction with drop threats elsewhere, not at all easy between the highground harass on the geysers, the harass path and the open front, plus the debris that gives you another front to defend when open. I am going to investigate this kind of arrangement more with a close 3rd but that is not easy due to how much it pulls your defenses apart. The sheer distance across the map helps allow these shenanigans without being too cheesy -- aka blistering sands. @RFD thanks for noticing the "options", I definitely focused on that once my main/nat was set and I was heavily inspired by your ideas in your map.


If anyone was missed or wants more discussion I'd be happy to.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
May 25 2013 05:36 GMT
#99
@Eat: there are actually 2 unbuildable rocks at each of the golds. granted, 2's probably not enough balance-wise, but a Jam's the kinda format where it's the thought that counts. idk, take off imaginary points if you want lol.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
May 25 2013 16:53 GMT
#100
Yeah I know, I meant that it's just terran favored to have a gold island in close proximity to float, since they can also very easily medivac some units over to kill the blockers. Zerg and protoss would have to bend over backwards to take that base anywhere near as fast as terran could. Just an observation, no point deduction. I go on a points awarded model. lol
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
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