EPT[M] (2) TPW Phantasm (Formerly TPW Enigma) - Page 2
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Declination
36 Posts
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
On January 31 2013 00:07 Unshapely wrote: Great map. The critics here are quite harsh, I rather like the way the 3rd base is positioned. Everyone here argues as if the 3rd base on all maps should be alike. Heh, stupid people. I agree with you the 3rds on the maps shouldn't be the same, but the problem is that if the 3rds aren't "easy" to hold protoss loses to 200/200 max roach push, so they need to be safe to an excent, because if they don't then the only chance protoss has to win is via all ins. The thing about this is that many many layouts in which the third base is unsafe aren't really do able because of that, so from the miriad of different layouts we can use only a handfull since these are the ones that allow the protoss play a macro game. Well i already told you what i think of the map on reddit wrl, it`s a really nice map ^^ | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On January 31 2013 08:41 Uvantak wrote: Or you know, don't FFE because the 200/200 roach max only works versus FFE.I agree with you the 3rds on the maps shouldn't be the same, but the problem is that if the 3rds aren't "easy" to hold protoss loses to 200/200 max roach push, so they need to be safe to an excent, because if they don't then the only chance protoss has to win is via all ins. The thing about this is that many many layouts in which the third base is unsafe aren't really do able because of that, so from the miriad of different layouts we can use only a handfull since these are the ones that allow the protoss play a macro game. Well i already told you what i think of the map on reddit wrl, it`s a really nice map ^^ But then again, people think not being forced to consider your opening based on the map is a bad thing. And please don't come with this 'You need to forge FE' stuff, I never FFE if I don't think the map is good for it for a variety of reasons and incidentally most maps that are bad for FFE are good for stalker pressure expands which are again bad on good FFE maps. In fact, I'm feeling advantages on open naturals that don't allow FFE because they allow stalker pressure expands which I feel put me in an economically superior position to Zerg than FFE. Also, I asked this on AllThingsZerg, most Zergs say they feel less secure when playing against a non FFE and rather play against FFE. | ||
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Timetwister22
United States538 Posts
On January 31 2013 08:41 Uvantak wrote: I agree with you the 3rds on the maps shouldn't be the same, but the problem is that if the 3rds aren't "easy" to hold protoss loses to 200/200 max roach push, so they need to be safe to an excent, because if they don't then the only chance protoss has to win is via all ins. The thing about this is that many many layouts in which the third base is unsafe aren't really do able because of that, so from the miriad of different layouts we can use only a handfull since these are the ones that allow the protoss play a macro game. Well i already told you what i think of the map on reddit wrl, it`s a really nice map ^^ Except that protoss doesn't lose to Stephano style max roaches anymore. Ever try sentry immortal all in? Do that, but instead of push, expand around 8:30-9:00. Also, this third is safer than most since most units cannot actually hit town hall from the high ground, hence why it is only a half base. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On January 31 2013 09:17 Timetwister22 wrote: The thing is that you need some amount of chokes to hold it off, that said, you can easily defend a roach max on this map, enough chokes.Except that protoss doesn't lose to Stephano style max roaches anymore. Ever try sentry immortal all in? Do that, but instead of push, expand around 8:30-9:00. Also, this third is safer than most since most units cannot actually hit town hall from the high ground, hence why it is only a half base. Truth be told, I get the feeling that a lot of people here are Protoss for some reason. I'm seeing a lot of complaints about things which supposedly are bad for P and from everyone I know the race they play here it's Protoss except Aunvilgod who plays T. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
Anyway back to the map, looking at further I think it will be very fun/awesome in all the mirror matchups and in TvP, (not to mention a joy to play on because of how gorgeous it is) but I really worry about PvZ and TvZ, where I think zerg will be shoehorned into going muta or overlord drops because they won't be able to put on pressure any other way (except maybe nydus). T and P get 2.75 easy bases vs. Z because you can sit tanks or colossi at the lowground 3rd (and the highground pod outside the nat as well, if you like) and outrange any roach or infestor pressure that might come near the cliff so long as you have something up there giving you vision (observer/viking/medivac) and a wall at your front door. Although w/ immortal sentry looking decent here Protoss may not even need to mess w/ the 3rd. I think a single entrance to 3 bases will always be a little problematic even with cliffs involved because Zerg will struggle, although this is probably as close as you can come to being balanced doing such a thing. There's a reason why some people are talking about matchup-specific maps; it would really open things up. p.s. - this of course is theorycraft from a silly man, and I agree it should see some games (especially ZvX) to figure out the truths of the matter. | ||
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wrl
United States209 Posts
Anyone playing please get back to me with any positive/negative experiences. I'm considering a few minor tweaks and I'd like to hear what people are reporting. | ||
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eTcetRa
Australia822 Posts
Even with 12 rating, positive accross the board! | ||
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
The third base is a good idea, but the protoss will not be able to hold a third base simply because of the stephano roach max. By just camping outside of the third base, the protoss will be FORCED TO ENGAGE the ZERG, who has a superior army. The protoss has to pick the fights against the roach max, or else it is almost guarenteed death. No mining will ever happen in that base. Of course, I could be wrong. GJ on the map | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
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wrl
United States209 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On January 31 2013 15:32 wrl wrote: Completely standard scenario honestly. I shall again beat this horse to death using this as an example. 'Professional opinion' of mapmakers is very inexact in the end. Professional opinions are only useful insofar all professionals agree or at least the vast majority do. That's what makes the professional opinion of say legal council worth something because they will for the most part all agree when they say you have no case or you will almost certainly win your case.The consensus is that the third is impossible to hold for everyone and too easy to hold for everyone. THE WORD MAY NEVER KNOW. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
On January 31 2013 15:17 SiskosGoatee wrote: What are they going to do? Attack your base from the high ground? Let them, it gives you one layer of forcefields for free. Zerg seriously does not want to risk that as long as there is air vision, you get forcefield doughnutted in for half the price of forcefields. So you're going to forcefield doughnut the handful of roaches above the 3rd high ground, then forcefield donut the roaches attacking your natural, then forcefield donut...wait a minute...how much sentries/energy do you think a protoss has lol? It gets even worse when you take the role of terran. If a terran ever gets a position above that 3rd you can kiss that base goodbye. Let's not even mention How abusive hellions would be on that base. I really don't want to be arguing about this, but I swear by some of the responses I'm seeing it makes me wonder if any of you guys have actually been watching sc2 lately...lol. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On January 31 2013 16:22 SidianTheBard wrote: Eh yeah, so you still need less forcefields then on a map like CK or daybreak or any map where there aren't 3 bases behind 1 choke. You will always need to defend both your nat and your third against a roach max. A roach max that strikes in one prong is a bad one.So you're going to forcefield doughnut the handful of roaches above the 3rd high ground, then forcefield donut the roaches attacking your natural, then forcefield donut...wait a minute...how much sentries/energy do you think a protoss has lol? And in the end, on this map, you will need half the forcefields for the prong that strikes at your third. A Zerg attacking that third from the high ground with roaches is playing with fire and will probably lose those roaches provided there is some amount of air vision. It gets even worse when you take the role of terran. If a terran ever gets a position above that 3rd you can kiss that base goodbye. Let's not even mention How abusive hellions would be on that base. You're pretty silly if you don't move out more forward against Terran, then again. | ||
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Timetwister22
United States538 Posts
1) Sentry immortal all-in was created to deal with stephano max roaches. Sentry immortal expand is a variation of the build that lets you get a third instead of all-in. I would consider this a standard means of taking a third vs zerg in the current pvz metagame. Use it. 2) This third is not nearly as open as the third on popular maps such as Cloud Kingdom or Daybreak because: -Width of the choke in front of high ground over third isn't as wide as the third chokes on CK or Daybreak. -The distance between the ramp in front of the natural and the choke in front of the high ground over the third is shorter for the defender than attacker. -Roaches cannot hit the town hall from the high ground, only deny mining. 3) When referring to hots, Mothership core and void rays. Good units. In fact, this third is so easy to defend, it's a half base. Overall, good map. I can see some issues with zerg not having a great 2 gas third available. Maybe with hots though, that won't be much of an issue. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On January 31 2013 16:36 Timetwister22 wrote: Now now, it wouldn't be a map thread if not at least 30% of people complained about a supposed impossible third in PvZ. As we all know, you can only hold a third in PvZ if you have 3 bases behind a single forcefield width ramp.Saying this third is too hard to hold for protoss is silly, especially in hots with the mothership core. Reasoning for this is: 1) Sentry immortal all-in was created to deal with stephano max roaches. Sentry immortal expand is a variation of the build that lets you get a third instead of all-in. I would consider this a standard means of taking a third vs zerg in the current pvz metagame. Use it. 2) This third is not nearly as open as the third on popular maps such as Cloud Kingdom or Daybreak because: -Width of the choke in front of high ground over third isn't as wide as the third chokes on CK or Daybreak. -The distance between the ramp in front of the natural and the choke in front of the high ground over the third is shorter for the defender than attacker. -Roaches cannot hit the town hall from the high ground, only deny mining. 3) When referring to hots, Mothership core and void rays. Good units. In fact, this third is so easy to defend, it's a half base. Overall, good map. I can see some issues with zerg not having a great 2 gas third available. Maybe with hots though, that won't be much of an issue. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
On January 31 2013 16:31 SiskosGoatee wrote: Eh yeah, so you still need less forcefields then on a map like CK or daybreak or any map where there aren't 3 bases behind 1 choke. You will always need to defend both your nat and your third against a roach max. A roach max that strikes in one prong is a bad one. And in the end, on this map, you will need half the forcefields for the prong that strikes at your third. A Zerg attacking that third from the high ground with roaches is playing with fire and will probably lose those roaches provided there is some amount of air vision. Well to be fair in CK and Daybreak it can take anywhere from 1-3 forcefields to block a roach attack off depending on your building placements. Here, there's a whole 180 degree arch above your minerals that you'd have to forcefield off. You should actually play the map because it can take a whole heck of a lot more forcefields to block off all the high ground above your 3rd. You're pretty silly if you don't move out more forward against Terran, then again. My point is, the terran does a 2base push and the protoss expands. The protoss can not push out to because he will get destroyed, he expanded remember, his army will be muuuch weaker. On most maps he can forcefield off the ramps into the 3rds to prevent terran from engaging and try to hold out long enough to build up his army. It isn't possible on this map. On January 31 2013 16:36 Timetwister22 wrote: Saying this third is too hard to hold for protoss is silly, especially in hots with the mothership core. Reasoning for this is: 1) Sentry immortal all-in was created to deal with stephano max roaches. Sentry immortal expand is a variation of the build that lets you get a third instead of all-in. I would consider this a standard means of taking a third vs zerg in the current pvz metagame. Use it. 2) This third is not nearly as open as the third on popular maps such as Cloud Kingdom or Daybreak because: -Width of the choke in front of high ground over third isn't as wide as the third chokes on CK or Daybreak. -The distance between the ramp in front of the natural and the choke in front of the high ground over the third is shorter for the defender than attacker. -Roaches cannot hit the town hall from the high ground, only deny mining. 3) When referring to hots, Mothership core and void rays. Good units. In fact, this third is so easy to defend, it's a half base. Overall, good map. I can see some issues with zerg not having a great 2 gas third available. Maybe with hots though, that won't be much of an issue. As for your points: 1) It's a standard means to expand, but guess what, now you're expanding to a 1/2 base and are going to be put even farther behind. Protoss in todays meta do the sentry/immortal all-in expand into a full base and still end up behind. 2) Did you play the map? It takes a lot more forcefields to block off the area above your 1/2 base 3rd then it does to forcefield off the 3rds in Daybreak or CK. Also, what good is the base if you can't mine from it? A non mining base for T and P is for the most part worthless, yes a chronoboost/extra mule is nice, but no where near as important as zerg getting the extra larva. 3)Well, this is me talking about WoL balance at the moment since there isn't really anything people can say about HotS. But you could say the same that well now zerg could use locust and have a never ending harassment on that 3rd forcing protoss to push extremely far out or that hydras are more useful and have a longer attack range so they'll be able to abuse it even more etc etc etc. Edit: I should also say it's not just trying to defend the base, but why would a protoss ever not do an immortal/sentry all in on this map? If you get a pylon above the 1/2 third base there's no way the zerg will defend with the amount of chokes around that area, hell, you don't even need a pylon since all these pushes come with a warp prism anyway. Double forcefield off the ramp to the 3rd, defend it from the high ground while a couple zealots kill it of, proceed to win the game. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On January 31 2013 16:55 SidianTheBard wrote: The high ground itself already blocks of, you only need to expend the layer of forcefields to forcefield _behind_ and trap it.Well to be fair in CK and Daybreak it can take anywhere from 1-3 forcefields to block a roach attack off depending on your building placements. Here, there's a whole 180 degree arch above your minerals that you'd have to forcefield off. You should actually play the map because it can take a whole heck of a lot more forcefields to block off all the high ground above your 3rd. My point is, the terran does a 2base push and the protoss expands. The protoss can not push out to because he will get destroyed, he expanded remember, his army will be muuuch weaker. On most maps he can forcefield off the ramps into the 3rds to prevent terran from engaging and try to hold out long enough to build up his army. It isn't possible on this map. | ||
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Timetwister22
United States538 Posts
On January 31 2013 16:55 SidianTheBard wrote: Edit: I should also say it's not just trying to defend the base, but why would a protoss ever not do an immortal/sentry all in on this map? If you get a pylon above the 1/2 third base there's no way the zerg will defend with the amount of chokes around that area, hell, you don't even need a pylon since all these pushes come with a warp prism anyway. Double forcefield off the ramp to the 3rd, defend it from the high ground while a couple zealots kill it of, proceed to win the game. This is a solid point, but the rush distances are long so I dunno. Would have to play on it to see just how powerful the all-in can be with this third setup. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
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