Description: Your main and natural are mostly typical. Your third, however, can only be accessed by ground through your natural. To balance this, its mineral line is up against an exposed cliff. To properly defend your third you need to defend from the cliff above it, this dynamic exposes your third to a variety of harassment opportunities, but on the whole isn't any more difficult to hold than most other WoL maps.
Your fourth is most likely going to be the base vertical of your third. This base is slightly exposed in the rear to air/ranged harassment. Further, it has a nearby high-ground which may be dropped on as well. Alternatively there is another base to take as your fourth vertical of your main. It is a much longer distance by ground, but is less exposed to harass.
The final base is dangerously placed in mid, but can easily be harassed by small hit squads. This allows for a player who might be behind in the late game to organize small tactical strikes against the opponent who might be on their sixth base.
The terrain varies from chokes to wide areas, and features a longer than average rush distance. The shape of the mid is such that, despite being a narrow map, it takes a long while to move units horizontally. This, combined with the lack of a Xel'Naga Tower, means that map awareness becomes vital to moving out on the map.
Race Specific Notes: Terran: The rush distance is substantial, so the lack of Terran speed becomes a major concern. The map is designed with drop play and using chokes to your advantage. Keep that in mind. Zerg: The third is nearly immune to zerglings provided your opponent has walled their natural, however later in the game zerglings will prove to be fantastic at using one of the map's many pathways for run-bys. Protoss: The map has many places to hide pylons, when your opponent is on two base you might want to put a pylon above their third to create a second attack path. The ramps are narrow and provide great opportunities for force field use.
The best compliment anyone can receive, the ragoo Seal of Approval:
Map is renamed from TPW Enigma, old thread can be found here.'
Changelog: 1.1 *Moved the mineral line of the third a few units off of the wall. Units with 6 or less range will no longer be able to reach the base from the above cliff, but units with 4+ range will still be able to reach miners. There is now room for a turret, cannon, crawler, etc. *Fixed an issue where people with OCD would complain about the third. *The ramp leading towards the natural has been moved a unit closer to the main, this should allow slightly quicker access to the base (numbered 5) vertical of the main. *The gas at the #5 base has been moved to one side, out of range of the high-ground pod. *Texture painting underneath decals has been cleaned up. Those running on low graphics settings shouldn't complain anymore about their sloppiness.
1.0 *Name changed to TPW Phantasm *Redesigned map borders. *There is now a high-ground pod above the base vertical to the main. *Corrected several graphical errors.
Im a bit iffy about the third. I love map layout and I think its really positionally great. The reason I dont like the third is because its a half base. I love having to defend above it, making dealing with drops usualy easier, but the other thirds are too far away. I think because of this, immortal sentry all ins on this map would be good, especialy since walls and corners are nearby. Overall, I love the layout and teh counterattack path.
Even though Zerg is definitely the strongest race right now, I feel you are hurting them waaay too much with this map. Every PvZ will be a 2 base because of how well it will work for you. If zerg takes the low ground 3rd protoss can warp in from above if needed, yet pushing their natural will be easy do to the amount of chokes. This means zergs will have to take their 3rd vertical from their main, but with the current layout that will be just about impossible to hold as well. It's farther away from your main/nat, and protoss will either attack from the highground with the choked off ramp, or attack from the low ground that is easily choked off as well as has protection with the LoSB. Take a look at this picture:
Get rid of the two bases in the middle. They will never get used. Ever. Maybe (just maybe) in TvT, but that'd be it. Next where those bases are, move it to the low ground. This makes that 3rd base vertical to your main a little more open, which means zergs will be more inclined to get it as their 3rd. It also makes 2 base pushes on that base much harder since it'll open the chokes up and protoss won't be able to fall back on the close high ground. The light green is empty space, so protoss/terran can still hide behind it if they want to push it, but it won't funnel the enemy up a small ramp. The brown is the LoSB. Add a new ramp (red) in to add more mobility and there ya go.
Get rid of the low ground outside the lowground 3rd. (The light grey) to open it up more. That 3rd base will already be a nightmare to hold, yet with how choked off it is above that 3rd base it'll be hard to push back a terran/protoss if they get set up back there. Getting rid of that small 4x4 square or w/e will open it up just enough to help that out.
I haven't tested it on this map yet, but that lowground 3rd might be a PITA for PvT as well. MMM or Hellions can fry probes on the minerals which will draw protoss out into engagements they most likely couldn't win. Or will lure them away to allow drops in the main easily. Why do all the minerals have to be up against the wall? Couldn't you turn the base 90 degrees clockwise so say only 1/2 the minerals can be shelled from the high ground? Now a handful of marines or 2 hellions won't be able to shut the whole base down. It also might make it a more viable 3rd for zergs.
I want to like this map and for the most part I do, but I just can't get behind that 1/2 base third. I think that alone really throws off the gameplay of the map and basically will force certain strategies because of it how it is laid out.
Have you thought about making it a full base but having the low ground swing all around the outside, past the 4th and connect to the lowground in the middle? You'd probably have to increase the map width a bit but it might be something to think about. Or what about changing the 1/2 base third to high ground instead of low ground maybe?
Aesthetics are amazing, always are when you make maps. (It looks much better then Enigma)
Hopefully I didn't rant too much here, lol. Keep up the good work bud!
1. Firstly the sixths are just that. Sixths. They will be taken if the game somehow stretches out to a stalemate, and a player wants to capitalize on their map control. They are intentionally very exposed so that a player on fewer bases has opportunities to punish the player attempting to take it. Will they get used often? Nope. Is there harm in their existence? Nope. Does it add more possibilities for the play-style of the map? Yep.
2. On the third. In general I disagree with how you are viewing the third, and I like to think I have a good idea of how it will work after designing around it for months. That said we haven't seen a map with a third like this, and it stands to reason that the typical metagame won't apply quite the same way.
Try to imagine that the third is actually located where the WRL logo is, that will make the concept of defending it make a bit more sense, and I think will make it apparent that it should be easy enough to defend as all races.
Here is what I mean:
Would a base in that location not be easy to defend? There are certainly differences, the base itself would be more exposed, but it would be easier to reinforce with units as zerg.
On January 30 2013 07:42 gCgCrypto wrote: the map looks great =) got some inspiration fro Tron? Can´t wait to have some of your maps on hots though, i cant stand wings anymore.
I think this is kind of boring for a HotS map, given some of the ideas I have for HotS, but I am currently trying to figure out how to publish it. It is giving me trouble.
Man, why would you put (formerly TPW enigma) in the title? Now nobody can think of it with its original name, like The Artist Formerly Known as Prince. You should have put it in the first line of the thread or something.
1. Firstly the sixths are just that. Sixths. They will be taken if the game somehow stretches out to a stalemate, and a player wants to capitalize on their map control. They are intentionally very exposed so that a player on fewer bases has opportunities to punish the player attempting to take it. Will they get used often? Nope. Is there harm in their existence? Nope. Does it add more possibilities for the play-style of the map? Yep.
2. On the third. In general I disagree with how you are viewing the third, and I like to think I have a good idea of how it will work after designing around it for months. That said we haven't seen a map with a third like this, and it stands to reason that the typical metagame won't apply quite the same way.
Try to imagine that the third is actually located where the WRL logo is, that will make the concept of defending it make a bit more sense, and I think will make it apparent that it should be easy enough to defend as all races.
Here is what I mean:
Would a base in that location not be easy to defend? There are certainly differences, the base itself would be more exposed, but it would be easier to reinforce with units as zerg.
1)Sure they are sixths so they'll rarely get used so it really doesn't harm any to have them. But if you can make the middle of the map better and not as choked off then maybe it's better to get rid of the 6ths, to make 95% of the other games have better flow through out the map. That's my thought process when I think about bases.
2)About the 1/2 base third, sure if the mineral line was only susceptible to harass units then I think it'd be great, but since it's so close to the cliff every ranged unit in the game can basically shut down that expansion, which means you have to take it after you get a big enough army to hold the high ground, which at that point it's still a 1/2 base so is it really worth it?
Think about the strats people use now. If terran does their normal marine/tank push against zerg, that base is as good as dead or useless when you think about tanks sitting on the high ground and elevatoring marines up and down between the two. Protoss could do their 2 base immortal sentry push, sit above the 3rd and elevator units down with the warp prism, hit the units with their stalkers/sentries, or just warp units in to pick off the base, while keeping the zerg choked. Zerg could roach-max, keep 3 or 4 roaches above the mineral line killing all probes constantly and just outlast the protoss.
To me, I look at the third and just find it as a giant trap. Not only is it a 1/2 base, but since every range unit can hit the workers, it allows the enemy to shut that base down. So, what's the point of taking it? Just 2 base all-in because if somebody does take that 1/2 third you can shut it down easily, thus most likely being able to win the game since you spent your resources on army, they spent it on economy, which means they won't be able to stop your all-in from decimating that base and more then likely winning the game.
Yes the white is recolored Valhalla. There are a few other color tweaks as well.
Sid. Originally the base was a full in early concepts, but the concern was that the base was too easy to hold. It really needs games from people who know how to play it.
I think one problem with making it a full base would be PvZ (unless you made the lowground wrap around and connect).
Protoss could have colossi on the lowground just out of roach range to prevent any roaches from firing on the mineral line, as long as they have an observer up on the highground to spot. It would probably shut down most infestor stuff too. And zergling runbys would be a non-issue. So basically P would have 3 easy bases with muta or nydus being the only ways to put on aggression at all. (it's still this way, but at least it's 2.75 bases not 3)
On January 30 2013 11:00 wrl wrote: Yes the white is recolored Valhalla. There are a few other color tweaks as well.
Sid. Originally the base was a full in early concepts, but the concern was that the base was too easy to hold. It really needs games from people who know how to play it.
I understand, I'm just theorycrafting how I'd play out the map. Hopefully you get some games on it so we can see how it turns out. As I've said I like the map as a whole and you've done a very nice job on it. Basically the only thing I dislike is the 3rds, otherwise it's a job well done! :D
You'll have to keep us updated if you get some great games on the map, I'd love to watch a couple replays of it. I do think the overall map right now benefits tank play, which makes it that much more enjoyable to watch. Everybody loves watching siege tank in action!
Great map. The critics here are quite harsh, I rather like the way the 3rd base is positioned. Everyone here argues as if the 3rd base on all maps should be alike. Heh, stupid people.
I really like the fact that the 3rd is basically free to hold but can be easily harassed. I think that could get dicey in TvP because any pressure would force P to move very far from their main in order to hold mining at the third.
On January 31 2013 00:07 Unshapely wrote: Great map. The critics here are quite harsh, I rather like the way the 3rd base is positioned. Everyone here argues as if the 3rd base on all maps should be alike. Heh, stupid people.
I agree with you the 3rds on the maps shouldn't be the same, but the problem is that if the 3rds aren't "easy" to hold protoss loses to 200/200 max roach push, so they need to be safe to an excent, because if they don't then the only chance protoss has to win is via all ins. The thing about this is that many many layouts in which the third base is unsafe aren't really do able because of that, so from the miriad of different layouts we can use only a handfull since these are the ones that allow the protoss play a macro game.
Well i already told you what i think of the map on reddit wrl, it`s a really nice map ^^
On January 31 2013 00:07 Unshapely wrote: Great map. The critics here are quite harsh, I rather like the way the 3rd base is positioned. Everyone here argues as if the 3rd base on all maps should be alike. Heh, stupid people.
I agree with you the 3rds on the maps shouldn't be the same, but the problem is that if the 3rds aren't "easy" to hold protoss loses to 200/200 max roach push, so they need to be safe to an excent, because if they don't then the only chance protoss has to win is via all ins. The thing about this is that many many layouts in which the third base is unsafe aren't really do able because of that, so from the miriad of different layouts we can use only a handfull since these are the ones that allow the protoss play a macro game.
Well i already told you what i think of the map on reddit wrl, it`s a really nice map ^^
Or you know, don't FFE because the 200/200 roach max only works versus FFE.
But then again, people think not being forced to consider your opening based on the map is a bad thing.
And please don't come with this 'You need to forge FE' stuff, I never FFE if I don't think the map is good for it for a variety of reasons and incidentally most maps that are bad for FFE are good for stalker pressure expands which are again bad on good FFE maps. In fact, I'm feeling advantages on open naturals that don't allow FFE because they allow stalker pressure expands which I feel put me in an economically superior position to Zerg than FFE.
Also, I asked this on AllThingsZerg, most Zergs say they feel less secure when playing against a non FFE and rather play against FFE.
On January 31 2013 00:07 Unshapely wrote: Great map. The critics here are quite harsh, I rather like the way the 3rd base is positioned. Everyone here argues as if the 3rd base on all maps should be alike. Heh, stupid people.
I agree with you the 3rds on the maps shouldn't be the same, but the problem is that if the 3rds aren't "easy" to hold protoss loses to 200/200 max roach push, so they need to be safe to an excent, because if they don't then the only chance protoss has to win is via all ins. The thing about this is that many many layouts in which the third base is unsafe aren't really do able because of that, so from the miriad of different layouts we can use only a handfull since these are the ones that allow the protoss play a macro game.
Well i already told you what i think of the map on reddit wrl, it`s a really nice map ^^
Except that protoss doesn't lose to Stephano style max roaches anymore. Ever try sentry immortal all in? Do that, but instead of push, expand around 8:30-9:00. Also, this third is safer than most since most units cannot actually hit town hall from the high ground, hence why it is only a half base.
On January 31 2013 00:07 Unshapely wrote: Great map. The critics here are quite harsh, I rather like the way the 3rd base is positioned. Everyone here argues as if the 3rd base on all maps should be alike. Heh, stupid people.
I agree with you the 3rds on the maps shouldn't be the same, but the problem is that if the 3rds aren't "easy" to hold protoss loses to 200/200 max roach push, so they need to be safe to an excent, because if they don't then the only chance protoss has to win is via all ins. The thing about this is that many many layouts in which the third base is unsafe aren't really do able because of that, so from the miriad of different layouts we can use only a handfull since these are the ones that allow the protoss play a macro game.
Well i already told you what i think of the map on reddit wrl, it`s a really nice map ^^
Except that protoss doesn't lose to Stephano style max roaches anymore. Ever try sentry immortal all in? Do that, but instead of push, expand around 8:30-9:00. Also, this third is safer than most since most units cannot actually hit town hall from the high ground, hence why it is only a half base.
The thing is that you need some amount of chokes to hold it off, that said, you can easily defend a roach max on this map, enough chokes.
Truth be told, I get the feeling that a lot of people here are Protoss for some reason. I'm seeing a lot of complaints about things which supposedly are bad for P and from everyone I know the race they play here it's Protoss except Aunvilgod who plays T.
Yeah mapmakers seem to be protoss slightly more than other races for some reason. Maybe because protoss is the prettiest race, so protoss players are more likely to want to create beauty in other ways :-P
Anyway back to the map, looking at further I think it will be very fun/awesome in all the mirror matchups and in TvP, (not to mention a joy to play on because of how gorgeous it is) but I really worry about PvZ and TvZ, where I think zerg will be shoehorned into going muta or overlord drops because they won't be able to put on pressure any other way (except maybe nydus). T and P get 2.75 easy bases vs. Z because you can sit tanks or colossi at the lowground 3rd (and the highground pod outside the nat as well, if you like) and outrange any roach or infestor pressure that might come near the cliff so long as you have something up there giving you vision (observer/viking/medivac) and a wall at your front door. Although w/ immortal sentry looking decent here Protoss may not even need to mess w/ the 3rd.
I think a single entrance to 3 bases will always be a little problematic even with cliffs involved because Zerg will struggle, although this is probably as close as you can come to being balanced doing such a thing. There's a reason why some people are talking about matchup-specific maps; it would really open things up.
p.s. - this of course is theorycraft from a silly man, and I agree it should see some games (especially ZvX) to figure out the truths of the matter.
Anyone playing please get back to me with any positive/negative experiences. I'm considering a few minor tweaks and I'd like to hear what people are reporting.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with some of the critics. The third base is a good idea, but the protoss will not be able to hold a third base simply because of the stephano roach max. By just camping outside of the third base, the protoss will be FORCED TO ENGAGE the ZERG, who has a superior army. The protoss has to pick the fights against the roach max, or else it is almost guarenteed death. No mining will ever happen in that base.
What are they going to do? Attack your base from the high ground? Let them, it gives you one layer of forcefields for free. Zerg seriously does not want to risk that as long as there is air vision, you get forcefield doughnutted in for half the price of forcefields.
On January 31 2013 15:32 wrl wrote: The consensus is that the third is impossible to hold for everyone and too easy to hold for everyone. THE WORD MAY NEVER KNOW.
Completely standard scenario honestly. I shall again beat this horse to death using this as an example. 'Professional opinion' of mapmakers is very inexact in the end. Professional opinions are only useful insofar all professionals agree or at least the vast majority do. That's what makes the professional opinion of say legal council worth something because they will for the most part all agree when they say you have no case or you will almost certainly win your case.
On January 31 2013 15:17 SiskosGoatee wrote: What are they going to do? Attack your base from the high ground? Let them, it gives you one layer of forcefields for free. Zerg seriously does not want to risk that as long as there is air vision, you get forcefield doughnutted in for half the price of forcefields.
So you're going to forcefield doughnut the handful of roaches above the 3rd high ground, then forcefield donut the roaches attacking your natural, then forcefield donut...wait a minute...how much sentries/energy do you think a protoss has lol? It gets even worse when you take the role of terran. If a terran ever gets a position above that 3rd you can kiss that base goodbye. Let's not even mention How abusive hellions would be on that base.
I really don't want to be arguing about this, but I swear by some of the responses I'm seeing it makes me wonder if any of you guys have actually been watching sc2 lately...lol.
On January 31 2013 15:17 SiskosGoatee wrote: What are they going to do? Attack your base from the high ground? Let them, it gives you one layer of forcefields for free. Zerg seriously does not want to risk that as long as there is air vision, you get forcefield doughnutted in for half the price of forcefields.
So you're going to forcefield doughnut the handful of roaches above the 3rd high ground, then forcefield donut the roaches attacking your natural, then forcefield donut...wait a minute...how much sentries/energy do you think a protoss has lol?
Eh yeah, so you still need less forcefields then on a map like CK or daybreak or any map where there aren't 3 bases behind 1 choke. You will always need to defend both your nat and your third against a roach max. A roach max that strikes in one prong is a bad one.
And in the end, on this map, you will need half the forcefields for the prong that strikes at your third.
A Zerg attacking that third from the high ground with roaches is playing with fire and will probably lose those roaches provided there is some amount of air vision.
It gets even worse when you take the role of terran. If a terran ever gets a position above that 3rd you can kiss that base goodbye. Let's not even mention How abusive hellions would be on that base.
You're pretty silly if you don't move out more forward against Terran, then again.
Saying this third is too hard to hold for protoss is silly, especially in hots with the mothership core. Reasoning for this is:
1) Sentry immortal all-in was created to deal with stephano max roaches. Sentry immortal expand is a variation of the build that lets you get a third instead of all-in. I would consider this a standard means of taking a third vs zerg in the current pvz metagame. Use it. 2) This third is not nearly as open as the third on popular maps such as Cloud Kingdom or Daybreak because: -Width of the choke in front of high ground over third isn't as wide as the third chokes on CK or Daybreak. -The distance between the ramp in front of the natural and the choke in front of the high ground over the third is shorter for the defender than attacker. -Roaches cannot hit the town hall from the high ground, only deny mining. 3) When referring to hots, Mothership core and void rays. Good units.
In fact, this third is so easy to defend, it's a half base. Overall, good map. I can see some issues with zerg not having a great 2 gas third available. Maybe with hots though, that won't be much of an issue.
On January 31 2013 16:36 Timetwister22 wrote: Saying this third is too hard to hold for protoss is silly, especially in hots with the mothership core. Reasoning for this is:
1) Sentry immortal all-in was created to deal with stephano max roaches. Sentry immortal expand is a variation of the build that lets you get a third instead of all-in. I would consider this a standard means of taking a third vs zerg in the current pvz metagame. Use it. 2) This third is not nearly as open as the third on popular maps such as Cloud Kingdom or Daybreak because: -Width of the choke in front of high ground over third isn't as wide as the third chokes on CK or Daybreak. -The distance between the ramp in front of the natural and the choke in front of the high ground over the third is shorter for the defender than attacker. -Roaches cannot hit the town hall from the high ground, only deny mining. 3) When referring to hots, Mothership core and void rays. Good units.
In fact, this third is so easy to defend, it's a half base. Overall, good map. I can see some issues with zerg not having a great 2 gas third available. Maybe with hots though, that won't be much of an issue.
Now now, it wouldn't be a map thread if not at least 30% of people complained about a supposed impossible third in PvZ. As we all know, you can only hold a third in PvZ if you have 3 bases behind a single forcefield width ramp.
Eh yeah, so you still need less forcefields then on a map like CK or daybreak or any map where there aren't 3 bases behind 1 choke. You will always need to defend both your nat and your third against a roach max. A roach max that strikes in one prong is a bad one.
And in the end, on this map, you will need half the forcefields for the prong that strikes at your third.
A Zerg attacking that third from the high ground with roaches is playing with fire and will probably lose those roaches provided there is some amount of air vision.
Well to be fair in CK and Daybreak it can take anywhere from 1-3 forcefields to block a roach attack off depending on your building placements. Here, there's a whole 180 degree arch above your minerals that you'd have to forcefield off. You should actually play the map because it can take a whole heck of a lot more forcefields to block off all the high ground above your 3rd.
You're pretty silly if you don't move out more forward against Terran, then again.
My point is, the terran does a 2base push and the protoss expands. The protoss can not push out to because he will get destroyed, he expanded remember, his army will be muuuch weaker. On most maps he can forcefield off the ramps into the 3rds to prevent terran from engaging and try to hold out long enough to build up his army. It isn't possible on this map.
On January 31 2013 16:36 Timetwister22 wrote: Saying this third is too hard to hold for protoss is silly, especially in hots with the mothership core. Reasoning for this is:
1) Sentry immortal all-in was created to deal with stephano max roaches. Sentry immortal expand is a variation of the build that lets you get a third instead of all-in. I would consider this a standard means of taking a third vs zerg in the current pvz metagame. Use it. 2) This third is not nearly as open as the third on popular maps such as Cloud Kingdom or Daybreak because: -Width of the choke in front of high ground over third isn't as wide as the third chokes on CK or Daybreak. -The distance between the ramp in front of the natural and the choke in front of the high ground over the third is shorter for the defender than attacker. -Roaches cannot hit the town hall from the high ground, only deny mining. 3) When referring to hots, Mothership core and void rays. Good units.
In fact, this third is so easy to defend, it's a half base. Overall, good map. I can see some issues with zerg not having a great 2 gas third available. Maybe with hots though, that won't be much of an issue.
As for your points: 1) It's a standard means to expand, but guess what, now you're expanding to a 1/2 base and are going to be put even farther behind. Protoss in todays meta do the sentry/immortal all-in expand into a full base and still end up behind. 2) Did you play the map? It takes a lot more forcefields to block off the area above your 1/2 base 3rd then it does to forcefield off the 3rds in Daybreak or CK. Also, what good is the base if you can't mine from it? A non mining base for T and P is for the most part worthless, yes a chronoboost/extra mule is nice, but no where near as important as zerg getting the extra larva. 3)Well, this is me talking about WoL balance at the moment since there isn't really anything people can say about HotS. But you could say the same that well now zerg could use locust and have a never ending harassment on that 3rd forcing protoss to push extremely far out or that hydras are more useful and have a longer attack range so they'll be able to abuse it even more etc etc etc.
Edit: I should also say it's not just trying to defend the base, but why would a protoss ever not do an immortal/sentry all in on this map? If you get a pylon above the 1/2 third base there's no way the zerg will defend with the amount of chokes around that area, hell, you don't even need a pylon since all these pushes come with a warp prism anyway. Double forcefield off the ramp to the 3rd, defend it from the high ground while a couple zealots kill it of, proceed to win the game.
Eh yeah, so you still need less forcefields then on a map like CK or daybreak or any map where there aren't 3 bases behind 1 choke. You will always need to defend both your nat and your third against a roach max. A roach max that strikes in one prong is a bad one.
And in the end, on this map, you will need half the forcefields for the prong that strikes at your third.
A Zerg attacking that third from the high ground with roaches is playing with fire and will probably lose those roaches provided there is some amount of air vision.
Well to be fair in CK and Daybreak it can take anywhere from 1-3 forcefields to block a roach attack off depending on your building placements. Here, there's a whole 180 degree arch above your minerals that you'd have to forcefield off. You should actually play the map because it can take a whole heck of a lot more forcefields to block off all the high ground above your 3rd.
The high ground itself already blocks of, you only need to expend the layer of forcefields to forcefield _behind_ and trap it.
You're pretty silly if you don't move out more forward against Terran, then again.
My point is, the terran does a 2base push and the protoss expands. The protoss can not push out to because he will get destroyed, he expanded remember, his army will be muuuch weaker. On most maps he can forcefield off the ramps into the 3rds to prevent terran from engaging and try to hold out long enough to build up his army. It isn't possible on this map.
Girl, the choke on the high ground above the third is about as wide as that which governs the third on CK or Daybreak, if you can hold a third on daybreak you can move out here and hold it from the high ground.
On January 31 2013 16:55 SidianTheBard wrote: Edit: I should also say it's not just trying to defend the base, but why would a protoss ever not do an immortal/sentry all in on this map? If you get a pylon above the 1/2 third base there's no way the zerg will defend with the amount of chokes around that area, hell, you don't even need a pylon since all these pushes come with a warp prism anyway. Double forcefield off the ramp to the 3rd, defend it from the high ground while a couple zealots kill it of, proceed to win the game.
This is a solid point, but the rush distances are long so I dunno. Would have to play on it to see just how powerful the all-in can be with this third setup.
On January 31 2013 00:07 Unshapely wrote: Great map. The critics here are quite harsh, I rather like the way the 3rd base is positioned. Everyone here argues as if the 3rd base on all maps should be alike. Heh, stupid people.
I agree with you the 3rds on the maps shouldn't be the same, but the problem is that if the 3rds aren't "easy" to hold protoss loses to 200/200 max roach push, so they need to be safe to an excent, because if they don't then the only chance protoss has to win is via all ins. The thing about this is that many many layouts in which the third base is unsafe aren't really do able because of that, so from the miriad of different layouts we can use only a handfull since these are the ones that allow the protoss play a macro game.
Well i already told you what i think of the map on reddit wrl, it`s a really nice map ^^
Or you know, don't FFE because the 200/200 roach max only works versus FFE.
But then again, people think not being forced to consider your opening based on the map is a bad thing.
And please don't come with this 'You need to forge FE' stuff, I never FFE if I don't think the map is good for it for a variety of reasons and incidentally most maps that are bad for FFE are good for stalker pressure expands which are again bad on good FFE maps. In fact, I'm feeling advantages on open naturals that don't allow FFE because they allow stalker pressure expands which I feel put me in an economically superior position to Zerg than FFE.
Also, I asked this on AllThingsZerg, most Zergs say they feel less secure when playing against a non FFE and rather play against FFE.
Yep, it`s really annoying when toss opens with a pressure build, when you are trying to open 15 hatch, but the problem with most of these builds is that if toss loses some of the units or doesn't do enough damage it´s almost an auto lose for what i have experienced, and if the zergs open with a fast speed build (pool first) toss is gonna lose the stalkers and there's not much he can do, besides replenish his troops and expand to his natural while the zerg is taking his third and droning up, so because of that FFE is safest, and there before more common, it's definetly it's not "you need FFE" it's more like "if you are not sure of your skills or the zerg's then FFE on" And as you say the naturals that are good to FFE are bad to the pressure builds since they are more closed and have less access (accesses? ) to them which is what the pressure builds needs to work is slight open naturals.
On January 31 2013 09:17 Timetwister22 wrote:Except that protoss doesn't lose to Stephano style max roaches anymore. Ever try sentry immortal all in? Do that, but instead of push, expand around 8:30-9:00. Also, this third is safer than most since most units cannot actually hit town hall from the high ground, hence why it is only a half base.
I have faced it yes, but i haven`t done one yet, but it doesn`t even matter if the nexus can't be reached by the roaches, since zerg just need to camp some roaches in the highground and stop mining while spliting his forces to that lowground area and behind the WRL logo, then when toss goes out to deflect the roaches in the highground the big force camped in the lowground would caugh toss with his pants down and surround it with the roaches harassing and the ones behind the wrl logo, dunno if that would really work (i have done similar things many many times, and have worked wonderfully, but dunno if it worked because my oponents where just retarded tho) but that's the idea i get.
Of you talking about doing an inmortal sentry all in and placing pylons on the highground of the half base, i as a zerg woulnd't take that base, i would take the "4rd" (the one in highground) as a third and make a creep highway to connect the nat to that base, otherwise zerg would get fucked by the immo all in as you guys are saying.
I still love the idea of the layout of this 3rd base, what i would do is say get fucked both (toss/zerg in WoL) and leave the map as it is now, and let HotS decide if the map becomes balanced or not.
Based on testing and some feedback, here are the current changes proposed for 1.1
-Moved the mineral line of the third a few units off of the wall. Units with 6 or less range will no longer be able to reach the base from the above cliff, but units with 4+ range will still be able to reach miners. There is not room for a turret, cannon, crawler, etc. -Fixed an issue where people with OCD would complain about the third. -The ramp leading towards the natural has been moved a unit closer to the main, this should allow slightly quicker access to the base (numbered 5) vertical of the main. -The gas at the #5 base has been moved to one side, out of range of the high-ground pod. -Texture painting underneath decals has been cleaned up. Those running on low graphics settings shouldn't complain anymore about their sloppiness.
Beautiful. I do think the incentive to all-in is way too strong for Protoss. They can't get 6 gas or hold their third with zealots vs Terran The main is so big and exposed, blink would be ultra strong There are so many ramps that sentries make 2 base timings invincible
Maybe open it up a bit in the middle and reduce the area that P can blink into the main from, and put the minerals at the back of the third with 2 gas. You can add a back door ramp because it is in the corner anyway.
Depending on which games are good, we should hopefully see a few games of Phantasm cast from the recent IPL6 HotS open tournament qualifiers. It will definitely be cast live at IPL6 itself as well provided not every single player vetos it.
If I get a hold of any good replays that aren't cast, I'll try and cast them myself, but it won't be pretty.
On February 22 2013 00:52 wrl wrote: Depending on which games are good, we should hopefully see a few games of Phantasm cast from the recent IPL6 HotS open tournament qualifiers. It will definitely be cast live at IPL6 itself as well provided not every single player vetos it.
If I get a hold of any good replays that aren't cast, I'll try and cast them myself, but it won't be pretty.
Hey guys, me and Sisko have played quite a few games on this map, and I got to say I love it, really good map and the 3rd is really unique in that you can be safe and greedy, but you can't really defend it versus an aggressive player without a force, which means stuff like fast 3 bases with a FFE cannot work and so does 3hatch with no gas versus gate expand, and that is even though there is only one choke.
A thing I do think needs to be changed is that there should be at least 1 or 2 towers, because playing on the map felt kinda random sometimes, I think having towers, at least for the start, is really important. But that might not be necessary for pro players, so I dunno.
My opinion is that the third is too easy to hold, especially in PvZ. Z has a really hard time effectively harassing from the high ground as Z is just getting your army forcefielded of.
Hello! My name is Ryan and I am the developer of the GameHeart overlay. I would really like to make your map available with the overlay. I know you are still tinkering with it but I wanted to at least start a dialogue so hopefully we can work together in the future!
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/P8VyM.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/7r7Lmqq.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eC7HWZT.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kLRRlxX.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mD9AzvA.jpg)
) to them which is what the pressure builds needs to work is slight open naturals.
