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M [2] New Amsterdam Medical, or Antiga Shipyard II

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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1 2 Next All
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-15 11:33:36
November 15 2012 11:29 GMT
#1
[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler [angled and pathing] +

[image loading]
[image loading]


Playable bounds: 179 by 172
textures:
- Castanar: Panels, small tiles, rock, metal, mesh
- Ulaan: dirt
- Braxis Alpha: metal, metal detail
Cliffs: Castanar Organic, Braxis Alpha Manmade
1043 doodats:

+ Show Spoiler [Backstory and philosophy] +

I've come to believe that an interseting way to make a map is to create a fairly large map with a decent rush distance coupled with bases that are fairly spread out and feature a lot of entrances into them, while making the entrances fairly choked. I believe this makes frontal aggression easy to defend but multi-pronged and positional aggresion more rewarding. I also feel that making a lot of ramps and chokes as well as many counter attack paths adds to the character of the map as well as positionally placing line of sight blockers. I also do not believe in a natural flow of expansions and believe that a map should offer a choice for which third and certainly fourth to take, I also like the fact if certain bases do not obviously belong to a certain player to create a certain amount of tension over them. I also have an irrational hatred for expansions which only have one entrance. To this end I've made the following modifications of the topology of Antiga Shipyard:

- It is a true two player map, the map is no longer fully rotationally symmetrical, specifically there is a path to an easier to take fourth base.
- The rocks guarding the third no longer fully block the entrance path, only partially to create a choke, however there are LOS blockers and a tower on top meaning that runbies and counter attacks are easier to pull off, but full frontal attacks are harder because the defending player can use the tower to look over the LOS blockers.
- The reaper-pod has been changed to a full backdoor with rocks as well as two ramps leading up to it. The rocks can be broken both offensively and defensively (it is easier to defend your main versus drops if the rocks are down but the outer ramp is walled off for instance)
- The thirds have been given a crevasse to make them a bit more chocked, I'm not completely sure of this change and might remove it.
- The gold bases are back in full glory, they are very easy to deny mining from but rather hard to actually kill, they are meant to be a viable third in some case. Contrasting the original Antiga, it is very easy to run around the gold bases in this version, you can't really put a PF there and use it positionally all that well.
- Entire map has been scaled up. You're basically looking at some-thing Whirlwind-esque in size with cross only.
- The entire centre has been heavily chocked up with a lot of LOS blockers added.

It's definitely an experimental map with a lot of untested ideas that may go horribly wrong:

- The backdoor rocks particularly are tricky, but I do believe that by positioning your army correctly and keeping an eye on them you can timely respond to them being taken out. They can be walled of from inside with 3 gates or 2 gates and a pylon.
- The third is very open and the hard to wall off due to the LOS blockers as well as being pretty far away. Might be some obvious PvZ problems stirring into this.
- A PF at the gold is going to be pretty darn hard for Z to kill given how chocked it is around the gold. Together with a lot of Zergs not liking to get ranged units versus T, hard to deny mining. It doesn't affect me personally because I like roaches vs T but I can see why many people don't.


+ Show Spoiler [Aesthetics and detail] +

+ Show Spoiler [Rocks that lead to the now more access…] +

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+ Show Spoiler [Gold base back in full glory] +

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+ Show Spoiler [The rocks aren't there leading t…] +

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+ Show Spoiler [Defensive choke] +

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+ Show Spoiler [PvZ defensive simcity] +

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+ Show Spoiler [TvZ defensive simcity] +

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+ Show Spoiler [TvZ defensive simcity] +

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+ Show Spoiler [PvT defensive simcity] +

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+ Show Spoiler [ZvZ defensive simcity] +

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+ Show Spoiler [Q/A] +

Q: Why did you make it a semi-four player map? Why not make it a full blown 2 player map without keeping any semblance of symmetry if no one is going to spawn there anyway?
A: Admittedly there's no real reason beyond aesthetics why I did this, I don't think it will take too much away from gameplay though, I've made changes to the symmetry where I thought it was required such as the three width ramp.

Q: Why remake Antiga Shipyard? Why stick to an old template if you can just make a new map from scratch and not limit yourself?
A: Admittedly there's again no real reason, I just like Antiga Shipyard and hoped to resolve some of the problems I think it has.

Q: Can't you blink into the mains using towers?
A: No, I changed the watchtower vision radius, you just barely can't, you can however intentionally see up to the high ground pods if you have tower control.

Q: Speaking of pods, those aren't unpathable it seems, you can drop tanks on there?
A: Pretty much, I don't see it being used offensively but defensively it might be a good move to drop a tank on there or walk a colossus onto it against Zerglings.

Q: No free overlord spots which are standard these days?
A: Nope, I feel it's okay currently to give Zerg a slight nerf in that regards, wouldn't you say? I feel that tradition was started when Zerg was underpowered, they aren't any more.

Q: The analyzer says that map isn't symmetrical and you can blink into the main with watchtowers.
A: The analyzer is bugged regarding this, it doesn't record changes to the watchtower vision and the terran isn't symmetrical no, but I've used pathing blocking to ensure that the pathable terran is (at least I hope)

Q: There aren't any aesthetic features and doodats on the back walls
A: If you look at the map from the back side it's pretty ugly yeah, admittely this is just me rushing things, if I'd done it completely properly I would've added them but you see those parts so little that I didn't feel it was worth it.

Q: Eew, circle syndrome?
A: I've made it my position before that I believe that circle syndrome is a good thing, not a bad thing, and that that is the reason most Korean maps have it. I've also made it my position that these things are subjective, not objective, so feel free to disagree and point it out in the comments. Some might have noticed that I like a little discussion about the differing views of good map design.


So tell me how much you hate it in full detail, because I know my maps are pretty controversial.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
November 15 2012 16:19 GMT
#2
Gold bases in the middle are not balanced!
SC2 Mapmaker
Zelaxe
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden14 Posts
November 15 2012 16:26 GMT
#3
You could try making the main backdoor a mineralblock + rocks instead. That way the defending player can easily open the path when he wants but it isn't possible to open it quickly for the attacker in the earlygame without sacrificing a large amount of economy.

"In GSL, the mega gosu players lose because they get cheesed. In #TSL, the mega gosu players lose because the other guy plays better 8-)"
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
November 15 2012 16:30 GMT
#4
On November 16 2012 01:19 lorestarcraft wrote:
Gold bases in the middle are not balanced!
You think so, even after the mule nerf?

On November 16 2012 01:26 Zelaxe wrote:
You could try making the main backdoor a mineralblock + rocks instead. That way the defending player can easily open the path when he wants but it isn't possible to open it quickly for the attacker in the earlygame without sacrificing a large amount of economy.

Cool idea honestly, I might make the backdoors leading to actual mains that way but the backdoors to expansion just rocks, or maybe just open those up entirely honestly. To think of it there's no real reason why those should be rocks at all.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
necrimanci
Profile Joined March 2011
70 Posts
November 15 2012 16:44 GMT
#5
why gold in the middle? You want to park your army there anyway, so not like taking it is a risk, and if you're ahead and got map control you get a free high yield. No comebacks allowed, eh?
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
November 15 2012 16:48 GMT
#6
On November 16 2012 01:44 necrimanci wrote:
why gold in the middle? You want to park your army there anyway, so not like taking it is a risk, and if you're ahead and got map control you get a free high yield. No comebacks allowed, eh?
Well, because I liked that aspect of antiga, how important centre control is, basically, if you got control of the centre you get to mine from the gold and your opponent can't.

Apart from that, I've taken care to make running around the centre a lot more possible than it was on Antiga where the centre was so big you almost couldn't actually run around it. It's pretty easy to do a runby on this map if he's firmly clinging on to the centre to dive into the natural or third so it's not like you can just park your entire army on that high ground and be like 'yo, you can't ever take this position', you will just get a billion lings or zealots in your third from the backdoor rocks that lead to the normal fourth.

So yeah, I hope that it'll create a certain contention to correctly decide just how much army you wish to allocate to retain control of the centre which gives you the gold but does leave you open to a massive counter attack.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
November 15 2012 16:53 GMT
#7
Why on earth is it a perfect square? o.O
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
D4V3Z02
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany693 Posts
November 15 2012 16:59 GMT
#8
The walls at the natural look like they make forcefields too strong.
http://www.twitch.tv/d4v3z02 all your base are belong to overlord
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-15 17:02:14
November 15 2012 17:01 GMT
#9
On November 16 2012 01:53 Aunvilgod wrote:
Why on earth is it a perfect square? o.O


Coincidence, it's just how the layout turned out to be to make it all fit.

I think it's proof that God intended the entire evolution of this universe to culminate in a second Antiga Shipyard and designed the geometrical laws of the universe just to make it so, what say you?

On November 16 2012 01:59 D4V3Z02 wrote:
The walls at the natural look like they make forcefields too strong.
Which walls are we talking about exactly?
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
loginn
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France815 Posts
November 15 2012 17:30 GMT
#10
On November 16 2012 01:30 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2012 01:19 lorestarcraft wrote:
Gold bases in the middle are not balanced!
You think so, even after the mule nerf?

Show nested quote +
On November 16 2012 01:26 Zelaxe wrote:
You could try making the main backdoor a mineralblock + rocks instead. That way the defending player can easily open the path when he wants but it isn't possible to open it quickly for the attacker in the earlygame without sacrificing a large amount of economy.

Cool idea honestly, I might make the backdoors leading to actual mains that way but the backdoors to expansion just rocks, or maybe just open those up entirely honestly. To think of it there's no real reason why those should be rocks at all.


I feel gold bases in the middle are still a lot easier to take for T and even if mules are nerfed it makes a lot of easy income.
Stephano, Taking skill to the bank since IPL3. Also Lucifron and FBH
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
November 15 2012 17:53 GMT
#11
Interesting turtely map. I think you could try to move corner bases closer to the center.

Oh and is a full FFE possible? I don´t think you should be making things hard for protoss these days...
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-15 18:06:30
November 15 2012 18:02 GMT
#12
It's a 3 width ramp like on Antiga, you decide if you want to wall at the nexus or at the ramp basically.

Edit: Also, turtly? That was not my intention, there are like 20 entrances into your main and third and it even has a backdoor and it's made very easy to drop.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Jukez
Profile Joined June 2012
United States51 Posts
November 15 2012 18:17 GMT
#13
amazing map macro map, where can i download it?
Liquid'Jukez? only in mah dreams.
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
November 15 2012 18:21 GMT
#14
I know that most of mapmackers absolutely don't care, but this map is obviously absolutely unplayable to me and thus I believe at least to a subset of those with graphicaly weak computers (individual mileages vary a lot). It is because there is an abundance of these smoke-based LOS blockers that cause extreme performance degradation for intel i-series integrated HD graphics when army is in the smoke.

You may ask, why would someone play on that? Well, reasons my differ, I can certainly give you a few. Put that is not the point - the point is that this only one thing needless kills the whole map for some people. Maps without these are completely playable, maps with a few of these can be played by avoiding the smoke with army - just this one is made in a way that it is almost inevitable that at least something will be standing in the smoke.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
November 15 2012 18:32 GMT
#15
On November 16 2012 03:17 Jukez wrote:
amazing map macro map, where can i download it?
'ere: http://www.mediafire.com/?14p7299z54pg53l
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
November 15 2012 18:34 GMT
#16
On November 16 2012 03:21 opisska wrote:
I know that most of mapmackers absolutely don't care, but this map is obviously absolutely unplayable to me and thus I believe at least to a subset of those with graphicaly weak computers (individual mileages vary a lot). It is because there is an abundance of these smoke-based LOS blockers that cause extreme performance degradation for intel i-series integrated HD graphics when army is in the smoke.

You may ask, why would someone play on that? Well, reasons my differ, I can certainly give you a few. Put that is not the point - the point is that this only one thing needless kills the whole map for some people. Maps without these are completely playable, maps with a few of these can be played by avoiding the smoke with army - just this one is made in a way that it is almost inevitable that at least something will be standing in the smoke.
Really? Even if you disable particle effects in the graphics settings?

And well yeah, I don't think many mapmakers are going to adjust to the few people that have this problem as the LOS blockers are part of balance but that is a bit weird and seems like a bug, isn't there a way to fix the performance degradation in the graphics options?
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
ihasaKAROT
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4730 Posts
November 15 2012 18:42 GMT
#17
I can tell u that new amsterdam does not have a medical center not the origional dutch new amsterdam atleast. nice map tho sir!
KCCO!
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
November 15 2012 18:50 GMT
#18
I felt that New Amsterdam was obviously some kind of Terran colony or something like that.I came up with the name when the water level was higher and the map was partially submerged, get it, Amsterdam lies lower than the water level?
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
November 15 2012 19:10 GMT
#19
On November 16 2012 03:34 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2012 03:21 opisska wrote:
I know that most of mapmackers absolutely don't care, but this map is obviously absolutely unplayable to me and thus I believe at least to a subset of those with graphicaly weak computers (individual mileages vary a lot). It is because there is an abundance of these smoke-based LOS blockers that cause extreme performance degradation for intel i-series integrated HD graphics when army is in the smoke.

You may ask, why would someone play on that? Well, reasons my differ, I can certainly give you a few. Put that is not the point - the point is that this only one thing needless kills the whole map for some people. Maps without these are completely playable, maps with a few of these can be played by avoiding the smoke with army - just this one is made in a way that it is almost inevitable that at least something will be standing in the smoke.
Really? Even if you disable particle effects in the graphics settings?

And well yeah, I don't think many mapmakers are going to adjust to the few people that have this problem as the LOS blockers are part of balance but that is a bit weird and seems like a bug, isn't there a way to fix the performance degradation in the graphics options?


I have spent quite a while trying to figure it out, I tricked around with variables.txt and driver settings but did not find a solution.

The point is that I have not problem with any other LOS blockers, just these smoke ones. I understand that a lime of bushes would like a little silly in this setting - it's just I guess a part my sneaky warfare to put the thought of these being evil into peoples' minds

Also as I have noted, I have not so far seen a map with so many of these (and I tend to look at pretty much every map posted here, even though I don't comment on most of them).
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Fluid
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada136 Posts
November 15 2012 21:51 GMT
#20
I'm not a fan of gold bases in the middle if they're very close like that. I think you should just remove them the map would be more balanced.
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