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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UnGCv.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler [angled and pathing] +
Playable bounds: 179 by 172
textures:
- Castanar: Panels, small tiles, rock, metal, mesh
- Ulaan: dirt
- Braxis Alpha: metal, metal detail
Cliffs: Castanar Organic, Braxis Alpha Manmade
1043 doodats:
+ Show Spoiler [Backstory and philosophy] +
I've come to believe that an interseting way to make a map is to create a fairly large map with a decent rush distance coupled with bases that are fairly spread out and feature a lot of entrances into them, while making the entrances fairly choked. I believe this makes frontal aggression easy to defend but multi-pronged and positional aggresion more rewarding. I also feel that making a lot of ramps and chokes as well as many counter attack paths adds to the character of the map as well as positionally placing line of sight blockers. I also do not believe in a natural flow of expansions and believe that a map should offer a choice for which third and certainly fourth to take, I also like the fact if certain bases do not obviously belong to a certain player to create a certain amount of tension over them. I also have an irrational hatred for expansions which only have one entrance. To this end I've made the following modifications of the topology of Antiga Shipyard:
- It is a true two player map, the map is no longer fully rotationally symmetrical, specifically there is a path to an easier to take fourth base.
- The rocks guarding the third no longer fully block the entrance path, only partially to create a choke, however there are LOS blockers and a tower on top meaning that runbies and counter attacks are easier to pull off, but full frontal attacks are harder because the defending player can use the tower to look over the LOS blockers.
- The reaper-pod has been changed to a full backdoor with rocks as well as two ramps leading up to it. The rocks can be broken both offensively and defensively (it is easier to defend your main versus drops if the rocks are down but the outer ramp is walled off for instance)
- The thirds have been given a crevasse to make them a bit more chocked, I'm not completely sure of this change and might remove it.
- The gold bases are back in full glory, they are very easy to deny mining from but rather hard to actually kill, they are meant to be a viable third in some case. Contrasting the original Antiga, it is very easy to run around the gold bases in this version, you can't really put a PF there and use it positionally all that well.
- Entire map has been scaled up. You're basically looking at some-thing Whirlwind-esque in size with cross only.
- The entire centre has been heavily chocked up with a lot of LOS blockers added.
It's definitely an experimental map with a lot of untested ideas that may go horribly wrong:
- The backdoor rocks particularly are tricky, but I do believe that by positioning your army correctly and keeping an eye on them you can timely respond to them being taken out. They can be walled of from inside with 3 gates or 2 gates and a pylon.
- The third is very open and the hard to wall off due to the LOS blockers as well as being pretty far away. Might be some obvious PvZ problems stirring into this.
- A PF at the gold is going to be pretty darn hard for Z to kill given how chocked it is around the gold. Together with a lot of Zergs not liking to get ranged units versus T, hard to deny mining. It doesn't affect me personally because I like roaches vs T but I can see why many people don't.
+ Show Spoiler [Aesthetics and detail] +
+ Show Spoiler [Q/A] +
Q: Why did you make it a semi-four player map? Why not make it a full blown 2 player map without keeping any semblance of symmetry if no one is going to spawn there anyway?
A: Admittedly there's no real reason beyond aesthetics why I did this, I don't think it will take too much away from gameplay though, I've made changes to the symmetry where I thought it was required such as the three width ramp.
Q: Why remake Antiga Shipyard? Why stick to an old template if you can just make a new map from scratch and not limit yourself?
A: Admittedly there's again no real reason, I just like Antiga Shipyard and hoped to resolve some of the problems I think it has.
Q: Can't you blink into the mains using towers?
A: No, I changed the watchtower vision radius, you just barely can't, you can however intentionally see up to the high ground pods if you have tower control.
Q: Speaking of pods, those aren't unpathable it seems, you can drop tanks on there?
A: Pretty much, I don't see it being used offensively but defensively it might be a good move to drop a tank on there or walk a colossus onto it against Zerglings.
Q: No free overlord spots which are standard these days?
A: Nope, I feel it's okay currently to give Zerg a slight nerf in that regards, wouldn't you say? I feel that tradition was started when Zerg was underpowered, they aren't any more.
Q: The analyzer says that map isn't symmetrical and you can blink into the main with watchtowers.
A: The analyzer is bugged regarding this, it doesn't record changes to the watchtower vision and the terran isn't symmetrical no, but I've used pathing blocking to ensure that the pathable terran is (at least I hope)
Q: There aren't any aesthetic features and doodats on the back walls
A: If you look at the map from the back side it's pretty ugly yeah, admittely this is just me rushing things, if I'd done it completely properly I would've added them but you see those parts so little that I didn't feel it was worth it.
Q: Eew, circle syndrome?
A: I've made it my position before that I believe that circle syndrome is a good thing, not a bad thing, and that that is the reason most Korean maps have it. I've also made it my position that these things are subjective, not objective, so feel free to disagree and point it out in the comments. Some might have noticed that I like a little discussion about the differing views of good map design.
So tell me how much you hate it in full detail, because I know my maps are pretty controversial.
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Gold bases in the middle are not balanced!
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You could try making the main backdoor a mineralblock + rocks instead. That way the defending player can easily open the path when he wants but it isn't possible to open it quickly for the attacker in the earlygame without sacrificing a large amount of economy.
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On November 16 2012 01:19 lorestarcraft wrote:
Gold bases in the middle are not balanced! You think so, even after the mule nerf?
On November 16 2012 01:26 Zelaxe wrote:
You could try making the main backdoor a mineralblock + rocks instead. That way the defending player can easily open the path when he wants but it isn't possible to open it quickly for the attacker in the earlygame without sacrificing a large amount of economy.
Cool idea honestly, I might make the backdoors leading to actual mains that way but the backdoors to expansion just rocks, or maybe just open those up entirely honestly. To think of it there's no real reason why those should be rocks at all.
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why gold in the middle? You want to park your army there anyway, so not like taking it is a risk, and if you're ahead and got map control you get a free high yield. No comebacks allowed, eh?
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On November 16 2012 01:44 necrimanci wrote:
why gold in the middle? You want to park your army there anyway, so not like taking it is a risk, and if you're ahead and got map control you get a free high yield. No comebacks allowed, eh? Well, because I liked that aspect of antiga, how important centre control is, basically, if you got control of the centre you get to mine from the gold and your opponent can't.
Apart from that, I've taken care to make running around the centre a lot more possible than it was on Antiga where the centre was so big you almost couldn't actually run around it. It's pretty easy to do a runby on this map if he's firmly clinging on to the centre to dive into the natural or third so it's not like you can just park your entire army on that high ground and be like 'yo, you can't ever take this position', you will just get a billion lings or zealots in your third from the backdoor rocks that lead to the normal fourth.
So yeah, I hope that it'll create a certain contention to correctly decide just how much army you wish to allocate to retain control of the centre which gives you the gold but does leave you open to a massive counter attack.
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Why on earth is it a perfect square? o.O
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The walls at the natural look like they make forcefields too strong.
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On November 16 2012 01:53 Aunvilgod wrote:
Why on earth is it a perfect square? o.O
Coincidence, it's just how the layout turned out to be to make it all fit.
I think it's proof that God intended the entire evolution of this universe to culminate in a second Antiga Shipyard and designed the geometrical laws of the universe just to make it so, what say you?
On November 16 2012 01:59 D4V3Z02 wrote:
The walls at the natural look like they make forcefields too strong. Which walls are we talking about exactly?
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On November 16 2012 01:30 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 01:19 lorestarcraft wrote:
Gold bases in the middle are not balanced! You think so, even after the mule nerf? Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 01:26 Zelaxe wrote:
You could try making the main backdoor a mineralblock + rocks instead. That way the defending player can easily open the path when he wants but it isn't possible to open it quickly for the attacker in the earlygame without sacrificing a large amount of economy.
Cool idea honestly, I might make the backdoors leading to actual mains that way but the backdoors to expansion just rocks, or maybe just open those up entirely honestly. To think of it there's no real reason why those should be rocks at all.
I feel gold bases in the middle are still a lot easier to take for T and even if mules are nerfed it makes a lot of easy income.
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Interesting turtely map. I think you could try to move corner bases closer to the center.
Oh and is a full FFE possible? I don´t think you should be making things hard for protoss these days...
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It's a 3 width ramp like on Antiga, you decide if you want to wall at the nexus or at the ramp basically.
Edit: Also, turtly? That was not my intention, there are like 20 entrances into your main and third and it even has a backdoor and it's made very easy to drop.
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amazing map macro map, where can i download it?
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I know that most of mapmackers absolutely don't care, but this map is obviously absolutely unplayable to me and thus I believe at least to a subset of those with graphicaly weak computers (individual mileages vary a lot). It is because there is an abundance of these smoke-based LOS blockers that cause extreme performance degradation for intel i-series integrated HD graphics when army is in the smoke.
You may ask, why would someone play on that? Well, reasons my differ, I can certainly give you a few. Put that is not the point - the point is that this only one thing needless kills the whole map for some people. Maps without these are completely playable, maps with a few of these can be played by avoiding the smoke with army - just this one is made in a way that it is almost inevitable that at least something will be standing in the smoke.
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On November 16 2012 03:21 opisska wrote:
I know that most of mapmackers absolutely don't care, but this map is obviously absolutely unplayable to me and thus I believe at least to a subset of those with graphicaly weak computers (individual mileages vary a lot). It is because there is an abundance of these smoke-based LOS blockers that cause extreme performance degradation for intel i-series integrated HD graphics when army is in the smoke.
You may ask, why would someone play on that? Well, reasons my differ, I can certainly give you a few. Put that is not the point - the point is that this only one thing needless kills the whole map for some people. Maps without these are completely playable, maps with a few of these can be played by avoiding the smoke with army - just this one is made in a way that it is almost inevitable that at least something will be standing in the smoke. Really? Even if you disable particle effects in the graphics settings?
And well yeah, I don't think many mapmakers are going to adjust to the few people that have this problem as the LOS blockers are part of balance but that is a bit weird and seems like a bug, isn't there a way to fix the performance degradation in the graphics options?
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I can tell u that new amsterdam does not have a medical center  not the origional dutch new amsterdam atleast. nice map tho sir!
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I felt that New Amsterdam was obviously some kind of Terran colony or something like that.I came up with the name when the water level was higher and the map was partially submerged, get it, Amsterdam lies lower than the water level?
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On November 16 2012 03:34 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 03:21 opisska wrote:
I know that most of mapmackers absolutely don't care, but this map is obviously absolutely unplayable to me and thus I believe at least to a subset of those with graphicaly weak computers (individual mileages vary a lot). It is because there is an abundance of these smoke-based LOS blockers that cause extreme performance degradation for intel i-series integrated HD graphics when army is in the smoke.
You may ask, why would someone play on that? Well, reasons my differ, I can certainly give you a few. Put that is not the point - the point is that this only one thing needless kills the whole map for some people. Maps without these are completely playable, maps with a few of these can be played by avoiding the smoke with army - just this one is made in a way that it is almost inevitable that at least something will be standing in the smoke. Really? Even if you disable particle effects in the graphics settings? And well yeah, I don't think many mapmakers are going to adjust to the few people that have this problem as the LOS blockers are part of balance but that is a bit weird and seems like a bug, isn't there a way to fix the performance degradation in the graphics options?
I have spent quite a while trying to figure it out, I tricked around with variables.txt and driver settings but did not find a solution.
The point is that I have not problem with any other LOS blockers, just these smoke ones. I understand that a lime of bushes would like a little silly in this setting - it's just I guess a part my sneaky warfare to put the thought of these being evil into peoples' minds
Also as I have noted, I have not so far seen a map with so many of these (and I tend to look at pretty much every map posted here, even though I don't comment on most of them).
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I'm not a fan of gold bases in the middle if they're very close like that. I think you should just remove them the map would be more balanced.
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Plantaries in TvX and Zerg expoing there for third ZvP mean gold bases in the middle are not balanced!
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The distance between the main backdoor and the nat entrance is longer for the defender than the attacker, either fix this problem or just remove the backdoor.
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Gold bases in the middle is imba because of ZvP... , Z will take a gold as their 3rd base against a FFE protoss, the toss now has to deal with like 25% more roach/ling aggression.
Otherwise, this is really quite good. The potential for a 4th base makes antiga a much better concept imo. Definitely an improvement. I am wondering if you can sneak around the towers at the 4th?
also, what made you decide to rotate the whole map like 30 degrees CCW?
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I like it. Take antiga and make it easier to take a fourth by making it two player. Good job!
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On November 16 2012 09:46 TheFish7 wrote:
Gold bases in the middle is imba because of ZvP... , Z will take a gold as their 3rd base against a FFE protoss, the toss now has to deal with like 25% more roach/ling aggression. I don't think so necessarily, a gold base yields as much income as a normal base because it ha only 6 patches, you just need viewer drones to saturate it, there's also only one gas, it's a risk/reward ratio because good luck holding that base against a sentry/immortal all in.
If it was that imbalanced ZvP the Antiga on the ladder, which has a high yield would be unwinnable for PvZ, I've noticed no such thing myself.
The only real problem that I see happening with that gold is TvZ, without ranged units Z cannot deny mining, however I purposefully designed the map to be able to do counter attacks around it quite easily.
I am wondering if you can sneak around the towers at the 4th? In what way? You can of course sneak past every tower theoretically unless its vision covers the entire map.
also, what made you decide to rotate the whole map like 30 degrees CCW? The layout just fit that way I guess, I tend to start executing ideas that I have from the centre out, it just happen to fit that way together with the backdoor ramp changes.
Maybe I should doodad it up and add no fly zones though.
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I'm curious as to how the gold base in the middle works out for balance now. Terran often feels weaker in the lategame in all matchups, so I suppose it could work out.
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On November 16 2012 12:15 IndyO wrote:
I'm curious as to how the gold base in the middle works out for balance now. Terran often feels weaker in the lategame in all matchups, so I suppose it could work out.
That's not really the problem. The problem is that whoever has map control also gets a free gold base, so that makes it almost impossible for the defending player to win.
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Winner gold bases need to go. I don't mind gold bases appearing in maps again with the mule nerf, however they need to be designed in such a way that if a player already has map control, they don't get gold bases with it. In other words, put golds along the sides with big vulnerabilities that you'd have to give up center map control to defend. Also, I'd like to see the fourth be dropped onto the low ground instead of the high ground, as well as the backdoor into the main be removed. This map has the same blink and drop vulnerabilities as Antiga, so there is really no reason to have an offensive back door. Aside those however, it's a pretty decent map.
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On November 16 2012 13:18 Timetwister22 wrote:
Winner gold bases need to go. I don't mind gold bases appearing in maps again with the mule nerf, however they need to be designed in such a way that if a player already has map control, they don't get gold bases with it. I disagree, this is the entire reward of getting map control as in asserting yourself at the centre that I like. That you have the centre far from means that you have 'won' by any stretch, it's a decision you make because it's not the optimal position tot take to defend your main and natural at all, it leaves them quite vulnerable to counter attacks.
In other words, put golds along the sides with big vulnerabilities that you'd have to give up center map control to defend. This was tried, and often just meant hatch first to the gold because you need to get out of position so much to punish it that you leave yourself open for a counter especially on map with high CS like this one.
Also, I'd like to see the fourth be dropped onto the low ground instead of the high ground This is honestly a pretty interesting idea that could probably work out well.
as well as the backdoor into the main be removed. This map has the same blink and drop vulnerabilities as Antiga, so there is really no reason to have an offensive back door. I feel the backdoor helps to defend drops rather than making them harder to defend wouldn't you think? If you break down your own rocks you can very easily just walk into your main to defend a drop rather than having to walk all the way around, which is part of their purpose, the other part is to threaten backstabs when someone vies for control of the centre to mine from the gold.
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Experimenting with a lowground fourth:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1dYzf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BtLbz.jpg)
Aesthetics are still a little bit rough of course.
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I kind of like the low ground 4th better, it makes it a little harder to defend which I like, but for Protoss it MIGHT be a problem. Please get rid of the gold bases, or make them 6g1hg, it just seems so random and is not balanced nor helps for interesting games
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Well, there's nothing random of course, it's supposed to be a high risk/high reward base, I'm not sure what makes that 'imbalanced. Unlike on Antiga it's also not a winners base because there's purposefully a lot of room to counter attack around it. If they weren't gold there would be r no good reason to ever take them. It's very easy to deny mining with a single ranged unit on the other side, doesn't even need to be on the high ground, you can easily kill the gas as well.
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this layout looks really good, nice job. maybe too many small tiles for textures, but it adds some contrast.
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I feel like the third base is even harder to take now, and having a hole in your main base is a TERRIBLE idea, and tournaments will never use it. But I really really like the concept of the new Antiga because right now, the old antiga is kind of boring :|
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