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Hello guys, I don't know if you all read the official forums but Blizzard posted recently that they want to change the map pool frequently from now and on and will use community made maps, I don't know about everyone's else thought but for me that seems freaking awesome!
The message from the thread:
Greetings everyone,
As today is the start of a new ladder season for StarCraft II, we thought it would be good to speak a bit about our current perspective on map pool changes for upcoming ladder seasons.
First, we understand the desire to see map changes happen more often throughout the year for both 1v1 and group play. We are looking at ways we can add fresh maps to the ladder on a regular basis and want to work closer with community map makers to get them involved in these kinds of changes. As an example, we’ve partnered with sites like Team Liquid to facilitate previous map making contests in the past. We’re currently exploring similar opportunities to involve the community moving forward.
There are no map changes occurring in this season roll, but you can expect additions to the 1v1 map pool for the following season. We always appreciate your feedback and thank you for being avid supporters of StarCraft. Good luck out there in 2012 Season 5!
Link to the thread: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5825143010#1
Feel free to share your thoughts and happiness on the subject, I do hope that it won't be something like using 1-2 maps and then going to back to no change for half a year, but from how they said it it seems like they want much more map changes, which is great!
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TLMC was just about 1 year ago.
There has been numerous GSL map additions in that time.
They had no issue removing korhal after a brief period of time, yet taldarim is still in after 2 years.
I have no faith left in blizzard to do anything that concerns the community.
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And also, as posted from the 'map council' thread. With HotS coming soon, do you really think they will allow community maps for HotS right off the bat? Let alone a couple seasons on?
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On November 02 2012 03:59 a176 wrote:
And also, as posted from the 'map council' thread. With HotS coming soon, do you really think they will allow community maps for HotS right off the bat? Let alone a couple seasons on?
From what I've read in conversation, this TLMC that's supposedly coming up is intended for HotS. They've also announced intent to use some of the best WoL maps in the beta - that probably means Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak, maybe Ohana as well. So in a word, yes. When they announce something and then fail to deliver on that, then I will doubt them, not before.
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Excellent news, thanks for sharing.
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I put this in the other thread but will put it here too:
I am so sick of the terrible excuses from Blizzard, this is an easy problem to fix, just fix it. You don't have to wait until next season. Fix it mid season, people will be fine.
Why are the only partnering with sites like TL who don't actually make maps instead of mapmaking teams themselves? Why do teams like ESV, Crux, and TPW not have a formal submission process? TL is great for finding up and coming mappers, but why do the established ones have to go through the same stuff?
Why is this so hard for them, does no one at Blizzard play the game anymore?
I can't express how beyond frustrated I am with Blizzard and maps, I talk to them about it and all they tell me is "it's important to us but we can't promise anything." No goddamnit, promise you will fix it and fix it now. It's been two years, the time for chilling has passed.
On November 02 2012 03:59 a176 wrote:
And also, as posted from the 'map council' thread. With HotS coming soon, do you really think they will allow community maps for HotS right off the bat? Let alone a couple seasons on?
I have been directly told at this time there is no plan to ship HotS retail with any community maps in the ladder pool, only Blizzard ones. They could be added later but being seasons are what 3-4 months now, I bet we will be waiting quite a bit.
On November 02 2012 04:40 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 03:59 a176 wrote:
And also, as posted from the 'map council' thread. With HotS coming soon, do you really think they will allow community maps for HotS right off the bat? Let alone a couple seasons on? From what I've read in conversation, this TLMC that's supposedly coming up is intended for HotS. They've also announced intent to use some of the best WoL maps in the beta - that probably means Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak, maybe Ohana as well. So in a word, yes. When they announce something and then fail to deliver on that, then I will doubt them, not before.
Yet no maps are in the beta from WoL, instead they throw in a 2v2 map. Nice.
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On November 02 2012 04:40 NewSunshine wrote:
From what I've read in conversation, this TLMC that's supposedly coming up is intended for HotS. They've also announced intent to use some of the best WoL maps in the beta - that probably means Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak, maybe Ohana as well. So in a word, yes. When they announce something and then fail to deliver on that, then I will doubt them, not before.
Is there another TLMC coming up? I havn't heard anything about that. Got a source?
On November 02 2012 04:54 Diamond wrote:I put this in the other thread but will put it here too: I am so sick of the terrible excuses from Blizzard, this is an easy problem to fix, just fix it. You don't have to wait until next season. Fix it mid season, people will be fine. Why are the only partnering with sites like TL who don't actually make maps instead of mapmaking teams themselves? Why do teams like ESV, Crux, and TPW not have a formal submission process? TL is great for finding up and coming mappers, but why do the established ones have to go through the same stuff? Why is this so hard for them, does no one at Blizzard play the game anymore? I can't express how beyond frustrated I am with Blizzard and maps, I talk to them about it and all they tell me is "it's important to us but we can't promise anything." No goddamnit, promise you will fix it and fix it now. It's been two years, the time for chilling has passed. Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 03:59 a176 wrote:
And also, as posted from the 'map council' thread. With HotS coming soon, do you really think they will allow community maps for HotS right off the bat? Let alone a couple seasons on? I have been directly told at this time there is no plan to ship HotS retail with any community maps in the ladder pool, only Blizzard ones. They could be added later but being seasons are what 3-4 months now, I bet we will be waiting quite a bit. Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 04:40 NewSunshine wrote:On November 02 2012 03:59 a176 wrote:
And also, as posted from the 'map council' thread. With HotS coming soon, do you really think they will allow community maps for HotS right off the bat? Let alone a couple seasons on? From what I've read in conversation, this TLMC that's supposedly coming up is intended for HotS. They've also announced intent to use some of the best WoL maps in the beta - that probably means Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak, maybe Ohana as well. So in a word, yes. When they announce something and then fail to deliver on that, then I will doubt them, not before. Yet no maps are in the beta from WoL, instead they throw in a 2v2 map. Nice.
Well generally mid-season ladder pool adjustment is for emergency only. Have only happened twice so far. Seasons are if i recall through only 2 months long.
Hmm i would like to keep pointing out that the guys who do make the maps at Blizzard are on their payroll so Blizzard can't really have them sit around doing nothing. They don't have any financial benefits from bringing in community maps but right now they do have a benefit from testing to the limit as to what would be balanceable in HOTS. Can they make maps that are more open. With more exposed expansions. Can it be done without screwing up X race.
This is not about balance it is about design. WOL is already close to 100% balanced but it got some design problems. That is what they are trying to fix and one of the ways they do this is with more open maps. Then they can try and make it balanced through unit adjustment later. That is why they got very little use of old WOL ladder maps right now.
As for WOL standing still, well this is Pre-expansion time in a nutshell. All the brainpower of the people in Blizzard that makes the decisions are being used on HOTS thus nothing is being decided for WOL. It is the same as in WOW. In the months before the expansion nothing happens. Better brace yourself if this beta will be as long as they claim it will be.
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On November 02 2012 05:14 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 04:40 NewSunshine wrote:
From what I've read in conversation, this TLMC that's supposedly coming up is intended for HotS. They've also announced intent to use some of the best WoL maps in the beta - that probably means Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak, maybe Ohana as well. So in a word, yes. When they announce something and then fail to deliver on that, then I will doubt them, not before. Is there another TLMC coming up? I havn't heard anything about that. Got a source?
Nothing official. It's most likely going to happen again, but it's still speculation at this point.
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sounds too good to be true .D
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On November 02 2012 04:54 Diamond wrote:
I put this in the other thread but will put it here too:
I am so sick of the terrible excuses from Blizzard, this is an easy problem to fix, just fix it. You don't have to wait until next season. Fix it mid season, people will be fine.
Why are the only partnering with sites like TL who don't actually make maps instead of mapmaking teams themselves? Why do teams like ESV, Crux, and TPW not have a formal submission process? TL is great for finding up and coming mappers, but why do the established ones have to go through the same stuff?
Why set up the system to create unnecessary struggles and imbalanced (whoa, did I just say that?) submissions processes. -- The proper answer would be to create a submission process that is uniform for every person. This is not the problem. The problem is reviewing maps for the purposes of testing and placing onto the ladder (this requires personel which requires money and a successful business is about managing costs -- yes, yes, I know Activision Blizzard sleeps in beds filled with Franklins -- not the point). A secondary issue that follows is management of the possible quantity of maps that could be submitted. This alone could increase the cost of such a submission process dramatically. Hence, from a numbers perspective, why take the risk and pay someone (or persons) to review when you can hold contests through major partnership sites that already generate advertising and revenue for your product?
On November 02 2012 04:54 Diamond wrote:
Why is this so hard for them, does no one at Blizzard play the game anymore?
Of course not! They play COD! 
On November 02 2012 04:54 Diamond wrote:
I can't express how beyond frustrated I am with Blizzard and maps, I talk to them about it and all they tell me is "it's important to us but we can't promise anything." No goddamnit, promise you will fix it and fix it now. It's been two years, the time for chilling has passed.
Agreed -- but until they start to suffer in their pockets the C-suits will not care.
On November 02 2012 04:54 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 03:59 a176 wrote:
And also, as posted from the 'map council' thread. With HotS coming soon, do you really think they will allow community maps for HotS right off the bat? Let alone a couple seasons on? I have been directly told at this time there is no plan to ship HotS retail with any community maps in the ladder pool, only Blizzard ones. They could be added later but being seasons are what 3-4 months now, I bet we will be waiting quite a bit.
This particular point -- Blizzard is doing the work to produce HotS. Give them their fair shot during the very beginning to show their skills. Besides, not like we won't need that time to produce maps specifically for HotS. Not everyone gets the Beta you know.
On November 02 2012 04:54 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 04:40 NewSunshine wrote:On November 02 2012 03:59 a176 wrote:
And also, as posted from the 'map council' thread. With HotS coming soon, do you really think they will allow community maps for HotS right off the bat? Let alone a couple seasons on? From what I've read in conversation, this TLMC that's supposedly coming up is intended for HotS. They've also announced intent to use some of the best WoL maps in the beta - that probably means Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak, maybe Ohana as well. So in a word, yes. When they announce something and then fail to deliver on that, then I will doubt them, not before. Yet no maps are in the beta from WoL, instead they throw in a 2v2 map. Nice.
Beta's still going on bro. The sky is not falling... yet.
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On November 02 2012 05:16 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 05:14 Sumadin wrote:On November 02 2012 04:40 NewSunshine wrote:
From what I've read in conversation, this TLMC that's supposedly coming up is intended for HotS. They've also announced intent to use some of the best WoL maps in the beta - that probably means Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak, maybe Ohana as well. So in a word, yes. When they announce something and then fail to deliver on that, then I will doubt them, not before. Is there another TLMC coming up? I havn't heard anything about that. Got a source? Nothing official. It's most likely going to happen again, but it's still speculation at this point.
I see. Would be nice to see it again through i could name alot of things that would need to be fixed for the format. But we will see.
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On November 02 2012 05:22 SigmaFiE wrote:
This particular point -- Blizzard is doing the work to produce HotS. Give them their fair shot during the very beginning to show their skills. Besides, not like we won't need that time to produce maps specifically for HotS. Not everyone gets the Beta you know.
We sort of gave them about 3 years now. How much longer do you want?
Also your point about the map team having to do something, they do. The Blizz map team makes 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, UMS, and Campaign maps (should be pretty easy to figure out where the majority of the time is spent). That's the problem, they don't have a dedicated team for 1v1.
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Well we got news from reddit. I thought i would share.
So the new pool is up:
+ Show Spoiler +
Akilion wastes
Cloud Kingdom
Daybreak
Howling peak
Newkirk city
Antiga Shipyard
Korhal City
Star station
Vetoes are in too.
All of them are their LE needless to say... but! Grand new Unbuildable plates/rocks/rubble cover the places where neutral depots usually is placed on tournement maps. No kidding they are here.3 pylon block seems dead. Now these plates doesn't seem anywhere as durable as a neutral supply depot so i wouldn't rule out a block happening following a proxy 2 rax. But that i don't mind that really.
Alright what is Newkirk city you ask? Well it is Blizzards promised replacement for Fractured glacier. Yes even Blizzard could see that Fractured glacier wasn't going to be competative so they replaced it.
So here it is:
http://i.imgur.com/Qlodr.jpg
Seems to be the legacy of Shakuras plateau from where i see it. I don't mind as i guess being a map that was in the pool for almost the entire WOL ladder(For better or worse) its design deserve some praise. This also shows its true colours as the design really always catered more to terrans than protoss.
It seems to have two bases with both rocks blocking it aswell as collabsable rocks that can block the entrance... Browder was here.
Now all that is left is awaiting all the "2/3 years late comments" that will surely follow even through all Blizzard have done is listened when they don't have to.
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On November 02 2012 06:00 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 05:22 SigmaFiE wrote:
This particular point -- Blizzard is doing the work to produce HotS. Give them their fair shot during the very beginning to show their skills. Besides, not like we won't need that time to produce maps specifically for HotS. Not everyone gets the Beta you know. We sort of gave them about 3 years now. How much longer do you want? Also your point about the map team having to do something, they do. The Blizz map team makes 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, UMS, and Campaign maps (should be pretty easy to figure out where the majority of the time is spent). That's the problem, they don't have a dedicated team for 1v1.
We gave them 3 years on a poorly executed (I won't say poorly designed because I don't know enough about game design to make such a statement) game. HotS thus far is looking to correct the errors of the past in many major ways (I am speaking about the game environment -- not necessarily the game play). Enough has changed that it warrants the allowance of the developer to make their bed with the expansion. What they are doing does not and will not change the common practices of tournament organizers nor of the players themselves anytime soon. What is changing, and rapidly, is the tools available to tournament organizers and the players to locate what we consider to be far better maps thanks to certain members of this community.
I think that it is the changes in the game environment along with the implementation of tools that the community has worked hard to provide that will create the necessary situation for SC II to remain viable for years... not the ladder (practice) maps. Ladder maps had hardly any impact on the longevity of Brood War -- rather it was tournaments and customs with a heavy emphasis on community that made it so successful. While it would be really nice to see our own maps in the ladder pool -- I can live without it if Blizzard works hard (which it looks like they have) to re-emphasize the sense of community in the game. If there is a sense of community -- the customs players will follow and they will play the custom maps (especially if they see them in tournaments and other streams -- hence why the environment needed the change).
This does not preclude the fac that the maps in the beta right now suck... they do. But it's still Beta so I'm going to reserve judgement until Blizzard does a full release. My theory here is to just simply be prepared.
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ofc formal teams have to go through the process...
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Qlodr.jpg)
That Newkirk map.. ugh. I like maps that encourage airplay (I myself have 3 or 4 maps that could be classified as this) but this map is basically shoving it down our throats. 2 close-together chokes in the middle (both guarded by XNTs) and that's the only way to get to the opponent. Not to mention 7 bases on each side, most of them close together and easy to defend.
They really, really want to see the huge late-game fights w/ Battlecruisers and such I guess.
Which is great ---if--- they naturally develop to that state after a back-and-forth game. But not so fun if they got that way from 20+ min of turtling.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On November 02 2012 09:15 Fatam wrote:That Newkirk map.. ugh. I like maps that encourage airplay (I myself have 3 or 4 maps that could be classified as this) but this map is basically shoving it down our throats. 2 close-together chokes in the middle (both guarded by XNTs) and that's the only way to get to the opponent. Not to mention 7 bases on each side, most of them close together and easy to defend. They really, really want to see the huge late-game fights w/ Battlecruisers and such I guess. Which is great --- if--- they naturally develop to that state after a back-and-forth game. But not so fun if they got that way from 20+ min of turtling.
That map looks HORRIBLE.
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Damn Blizzard is going off the wagon, its like their only plan for hots is to double down on silly gimmicks that didn't work right the first time around. I know its like the cool thing these days to hate on blizz but I am really unexcited for this expansion. The lack of change in the team map pools have completely stifled casual play, and the glacial pace of change in the 1v1 pool is causing stagnation at the highest levels. I'm all for balance but I think they are just afraid to shake things up now that they are at the magic 5% statistical balance numbers in all matchups. The worst part is that its not laze, but willful ignorance that is causing it. All they have to do is open up channels for community maps to get playtime and the problems could work themselves out. I'm happy they are at least trying new things but until I see action from blizz, words are wind.
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Here's a post I made on the bnet thread:
If what is explained by Cloaken's comment means that a semi-automated process for testing and approving new maps for every season is put into place, then I can wait that long, but I really hope this is what it is. The entire way the map pool has been managed in WoL isn't really optimal long term - this idea of arbitrarily saying "okay GSL map time, let's do a poll of every single GSL map ever used, past or present!" or "Let's do a contest on TeamLiquid and see what maps happen". Both of those things were inherently GOOD imo, but only because Blizzard has not managed to create a semi-automated way to approve competitive maps in the ladder pool, as we can see because since then, there have been no changes other than adding Condemned Ridge, which by all means though we don't have the ladder stat numbers, appears to be a greatly Zerg favored map.
Ideally (this is more IMO and maybe map makers and players would disagree), two maps ought to be changed out every season until the map pool is considered 'fresh', and then perhaps one map should be switched out every season. At that point you could even begin to switch 'older' (meaning maybe one that was removed for one season) maps back INTO the pool - because even though it's been mentioned by Blizzard that they could do this with maps like Metalopolis and Metropolis it's never been viable/ideal because by the time a map has ever been taken out of the ladder pool, it's been completely figured out and considered stale/unbalanced in the competitive scene (though I remember they did take and and re-add Metalopolis once with fixed positions).
Having zero changes for any season, let alone three, is a huge disappointment both to players and viewers (in the case of WCS). There are many complaints of the game being "stale" by both viewers and players - but the state of the map pool in many tournaments and in the Blizzard ladder is just as responsible, if not MORE so, than game design/balance, in my opinion.
ALSO, I truly believe that with the number of workers being added to CC/Hatchery/Nexus, that it is time for Blizzard to allow mapmakers to use non-standard expansions in maps. It should no longer be confusing to low level players because the CC and gas tells you exactly how many workers can be placed for saturation. The increased depth of maps would more than make up for the ability to see how many workers are on each Nexus/CC/Hatch without counting (which like many, I believe is a negligible effect in many games). Maps where there used to be rocks (Condemned Ridge, Tal'Darim altar) could be properly balanced with smaller expansions, and in the case of maps like Daybreak and Antiga (where as NASL realized, the golds SHOULD be smaller expansions), add to strategic depth by players making choices where to expand based on risk versus profitability.
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One concern I have w/ the prospect of Blizzard having some sort of community-based decision on what maps might be on the ladder (it sounds like this might be a possibility, although we don't know much) is - whatever map looks the prettiest from the overview picture will get the most votes, regardless of gameplay innovation or balance.
But that is conjecture and certainly a good problem to have, vs. the current stale state of things.
ALSO, I truly believe that with the number of workers being added to CC/Hatchery/Nexus, that it is time for Blizzard to allow mapmakers to use non-standard expansions in maps.
That's a decent point, although I think with them letting community maps have a chance - more unconventional maps creeping into the map pool would happen regardless of not having to count workers.
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EPT
