On November 04 2012 22:51 Semmo wrote: Here's my idea: Every Ladder Season, Blizzard holds a map competition for a chance to get into the ladder. Also, every ladder season, 1-2 unpopular maps are removed. Since it's only addition of 1 map per season, people can choose to veto it, so it won't hurt that many people.
Do the same with 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 etc. = people motivated to map
100% agree with this. Its a simple solution to a complicated problem. Don't like one of the new maps? thats what vetos are for. Really not sure why they wouldn't do something like this.
On November 04 2012 22:51 Semmo wrote: Here's my idea: Every Ladder Season, Blizzard holds a map competition for a chance to get into the ladder. Also, every ladder season, 1-2 unpopular maps are removed. Since it's only addition of 1 map per season, people can choose to veto it, so it won't hurt that many people.
Do the same with 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 etc. = people motivated to map
100% agree with this. Its a simple solution to a complicated problem. Don't like one of the new maps? thats what vetos are for. Really not sure why they wouldn't do something like this.
The reason is that it's not that simple. Do you create a custom submission feature for battle.net to limit it to one submission per account? What if people buy multiple accounts? Etc. But let's say that works.
How many maps are you going to get? Omfg, a zillion. And how many of those are absolute garbage from kiddies? Not that that's a bad thing but you'll have to sort through them all.
Who's in charge of this? How many people do they have to do the sifting? How can you trust they know how to judge properly for sifting? Then when you have some manageable number of legitimate candidates, how do you choose? Do you do testing? If you find a glitch or mistake in one of the maps, do you toss it and go to 2nd place or do you try to contact the mapmaker and have them fix it? Or do you (as Blizzard) fix it yourself in your own taste?
Not that any of this is a real "problem"; that system would still work fine. It's not exactly "simple" though just because of the scale of the project. It's actually rather a nightmarish undertaking.
And if people publicize their submission and a cool map gets a lot of public support, but then it doesn't get picked... another stupid little PR snag. So many things that make it unattractive compared to ultimate fiat non-community game design.
Though in principle of course it's a great idea. ^^
On November 05 2012 06:11 Sumadin wrote: It is a problem for the mapmaking community that map deviation is at an all time low.It hinders the motivation to create maps in the first place when you know that noone gets their maps in. But i gotta admit i can't see where the quick solution should come from. GSL still does exchange maps regually, but somewhy noone seem to follow suit.
This is indeed a very big problem. Many mapmakers have gone inactive or semi-inactive, no motivation to make maps, the scene doesn't improve nearly as much as it could.
And organizing TLMC really isn't that hard. I mean it's like a MotM just with TL pro coverage skills with nice texts and graphics blabla and more people for testing etc. But I'm certain that it's very easy to motivate people to do this stuff when you are sure that at the end the winning maps will go to ladder.
On November 05 2012 06:11 Sumadin wrote: It is a problem for the mapmaking community that map deviation is at an all time low.It hinders the motivation to create maps in the first place when you know that noone gets their maps in. But i gotta admit i can't see where the quick solution should come from. GSL still does exchange maps regually, but somewhy noone seem to follow suit.
This is indeed a very big problem. Many mapmakers have gone inactive or semi-inactive, no motivation to make maps, the scene doesn't improve nearly as much as it could.
And organizing TLMC really isn't that hard. I mean it's like a MotM just with TL pro coverage skills with nice texts and graphics blabla and more people for testing etc. But I'm certain that it's very easy to motivate people to do this stuff when you are sure that at the end the winning maps will go to ladder.
Well i said this before but the first TLMC was dreadfully inefficiant. There was a huge voting process, and afterwards it took 2 seasons for Blizzard to implement it. This alone means that the best we can ever hope for is for it to be an annual event.
But the biggest problem was really the outcome. What did we get? 2 maps was added to the general tournement pool(Cloud kingdom and Ohana) and while Blizzard did pick a third (Korhal compound), general rejection by tournements and some imbalance ment that Blizzard soon rejected it again.
If another TLMC were to happen i think they would need to raise the bar alot. Either they would need to streamline the contest so that it happens faster or they need to think of a way for more of the maps to make it out in the tournements. I don't think it would be far off to try and demand that all top 5 gets some tournement coverage. Unless we want the annual map rotation for tournements to be 2 maps only(It is getting close to that...)
But how to archieve that? The only way i could think off was to implement "map contracts" which would basicly be a deal that says X tournement promises to include one of the final maps at least once. Could be sorted like this:
Winner: Ladder spot Second place: WCS 2013 Third: GSL Fourth: MLG(Yea right :| ) Fifth: I don't know, Dreamhack?
Now this would just be for say one season and afterwards they would be free to go for the Winner map. This would be a way to try and include some deviation between the tournement pools. But lets be honest good luck getting the tournements to agree on that.
On November 05 2012 06:11 Sumadin wrote: It is a problem for the mapmaking community that map deviation is at an all time low.It hinders the motivation to create maps in the first place when you know that noone gets their maps in. But i gotta admit i can't see where the quick solution should come from. GSL still does exchange maps regually, but somewhy noone seem to follow suit.
This is indeed a very big problem. Many mapmakers have gone inactive or semi-inactive, no motivation to make maps, the scene doesn't improve nearly as much as it could.
And organizing TLMC really isn't that hard. I mean it's like a MotM just with TL pro coverage skills with nice texts and graphics blabla and more people for testing etc. But I'm certain that it's very easy to motivate people to do this stuff when you are sure that at the end the winning maps will go to ladder.
As far as I am concerned, there is no point in running anything the scale of TLMC without a guarantee that the maps are going to get playtime or considered for ladder use. Without that, there is nothing separating it from something like MotM which already does a good job at promoting community maps (what happened to that lately btw t.t)
On November 05 2012 06:11 Sumadin wrote: It is a problem for the mapmaking community that map deviation is at an all time low.It hinders the motivation to create maps in the first place when you know that noone gets their maps in. But i gotta admit i can't see where the quick solution should come from. GSL still does exchange maps regually, but somewhy noone seem to follow suit.
This is indeed a very big problem. Many mapmakers have gone inactive or semi-inactive, no motivation to make maps, the scene doesn't improve nearly as much as it could.
And organizing TLMC really isn't that hard. I mean it's like a MotM just with TL pro coverage skills with nice texts and graphics blabla and more people for testing etc. But I'm certain that it's very easy to motivate people to do this stuff when you are sure that at the end the winning maps will go to ladder.
Well i said this before but the first TLMC was dreadfully inefficiant. There was a huge voting process, and afterwards it took 2 seasons for Blizzard to implement it. This alone means that the best we can ever hope for is for it to be an annual event.
But the biggest problem was really the outcome. What did we get? 2 maps was added to the general tournement pool(Cloud kingdom and Ohana) and while Blizzard did pick a third (Korhal compound), general rejection by tournements and some imbalance ment that Blizzard soon rejected it again.
If another TLMC were to happen i think they would need to raise the bar alot. Either they would need to streamline the contest so that it happens faster or they need to think of a way for more of the maps to make it out in the tournements. I don't think it would be far off to try and demand that all top 5 gets some tournement coverage. Unless we want the annual map rotation for tournements to be 2 maps only(It is getting close to that...)
Well let me elaborate on the TLMC process a bit. the map contest potion allocated around 1 month for submissions + 2~ weeks or so. The intention was to have the TLopen shortly afterwards but conflicting tournament schedules and busy staff schedules meant that that was delayed. When Blizzard finally got around to getting maps into the ladder (thx christmas/new year) Ohana had to be nearly completely reworked to meet quality standards which is why that was so delayed. Cloud/KC were introduced the first possible season upon being decided. Also, the voting process was something that Blizzard wanted (community input on the maps).
On November 05 2012 21:10 Plexa wrote: As far as I am concerned, there is no point in running anything the scale of TLMC without a guarantee that the maps are going to get playtime or considered for ladder use. Without that, there is nothing separating it from something like MotM which already does a good job at promoting community maps (what happened to that lately btw t.t)
The big problem with MotM is that we don't have the people or resources to run a tournament on a monthly basis. When we tried to run MotM without the tournament, there was loud complaints, which is understandable. The biggest motivation for mapmakers is to see games being played on their maps. Without that, MotM loses importance.
On November 05 2012 21:10 Plexa wrote: As far as I am concerned, there is no point in running anything the scale of TLMC without a guarantee that the maps are going to get playtime or considered for ladder use. Without that, there is nothing separating it from something like MotM which already does a good job at promoting community maps (what happened to that lately btw t.t)
The big problem with MotM is that we don't have the people or resources to run a tournament on a monthly basis. When we tried to run MotM without the tournament, there was loud complaints, which is understandable. The biggest motivation for mapmakers is to see games being played on their maps. Without that, MotM loses importance.
Sure but there is value in having a simple mapping competition. Sure it isn't exactly what map makers want, but simply having some tournament where people can participate and have their maps ranked is good for the growth of newer to mid range mappers. There's definitely value is raising the overall standard of maps imo, and thats an important thing for the community moving forward. Although I do agree that the elite mappers and amazing community maps need better notoriety and greater play time. And of course, we're always looking for ways to facilitate that in a sensible kind of way.
And how do you raise the standard of maps if they're not played in a tournament ? Khoral Compound had won a Motm 6 months prior to winning a spot in the ladder but still it looked like judges discovered its flaws when it was played in the ladder. (fyi judges voted it 1st while the community voted it last at the TLMC)
My opinion about the ladder is Blizzard doesn't want casual players (even casual master players) to flee because of new maps they don't know. When you play a few games here and there and you see maps that you don't know you get beaten hard. If many maps change you get beaten a lot and you stop playing. The only way for Blizzard to add in maps is to advertise about it. So players start playing again because of novelty.
btw when I see posts talking about 4 gates I really wonder if mappers still play the game. I play protoss and I can't remember the last time I saw a 4 gate, even in tournaments. You guys need to start playing the game again to keep up to date.
On November 05 2012 23:40 chuky500 wrote: And how do you raise the standard of maps if they're not played in a tournament ? Khoral Compound had won a Motm 6 months prior to winning a spot in the ladder but still it looked like judges discovered its flaws when it was played in the ladder. (fyi judges voted it 1st while the community voted it last at the TLMC)
My opinion about the ladder is Blizzard doesn't want casual players (even casual master players) to flee because of new maps they don't know. When you play a few games here and there and you see maps that you don't know you get beaten hard. If many maps change you get beaten a lot and you stop playing. The only way for Blizzard to add in maps is to advertise about it. So players start playing again because of novelty.
btw when I see posts talking about 4 gates I really wonder if mappers still play the game. I play protoss and I can't remember the last time I saw a 4 gate, even in tournaments. You guys need to start playing the game again to keep up to date.
On November 05 2012 23:40 chuky500 wrote: And how do you raise the standard of maps if they're not played in a tournament ? Khoral Compound had won a Motm 6 months prior to winning a spot in the ladder but still it looked like judges discovered its flaws when it was played in the ladder. (fyi judges voted it 1st while the community voted it last at the TLMC)
My opinion about the ladder is Blizzard doesn't want casual players (even casual master players) to flee because of new maps they don't know. When you play a few games here and there and you see maps that you don't know you get beaten hard. If many maps change you get beaten a lot and you stop playing. The only way for Blizzard to add in maps is to advertise about it. So players start playing again because of novelty.
btw when I see posts talking about 4 gates I really wonder if mappers still play the game. I play protoss and I can't remember the last time I saw a 4 gate, even in tournaments. You guys need to start playing the game again to keep up to date.
If there is one thing casual gamers hate, its the lack of new things. So not rotating the map pool like crazy is rather pushing casuals away from laddering. A constant map pool helps those one trick ponys though that get high by playing one strategy. I am just curious if they will switch it up with HotS. I think letting the community do the mapping work and deciding what comes and goes on ladder saves them alot of work and if it doesn't work out they can go back to the old system. Might get complicated though if at the end there are just Zerg favored maps left over.
But right now I rather expect things to get worse. Or they go super lazy and just copy the gsl map pool.
I think they should remove the old maps as fast as possible. It's stupid that your votes have to go to completely outdated maps like tal'darim altar or really strange maps like condemned ridge. Also it's just stupid they don't fix their current map pool. Although they might not like adding depots (until hots comes out-.-) they could atleast fix the spawn positions on maps like antiga shipyard or entombed valley, because some spawns are just so stupid to play as a Zerg it's hard to decide which of the unbalanced maps should be voted first... (for example antiga shipyard close spawns vs a terran mass droping with siegetank support from his 3rd is such a joke...)
The TLMC was a huge success anyway, compared to anything else that's ever happened. The way KC was changed for the ladder edition rather ruined its viability. Still, 2/3 maps used to this day in tournaments worldwide... seems like a good outcome. Is anyone seriously opposed to a repeat?
The thing about MotM without games is that it doesn't really add anything to what mapmakers already do in the forum, which is critique each others' maps and try to make cool new stuff. Getting ranked arbitrarily by a few people doesn't really matter to me, personally, but the chance that I could see some games on a map I made is pretty exciting. However, I think most mapmakers are motivated by the pursuit of better maps, not personal glory. So, lack of map rotation is really the thing that is most discouraging. But there are new mapmakers posting every few days, so I don't think we need to worry about the mapmaking scene so much as the institutions for integrating community maps. (Which seem to be ever so gradually coming into being.)
On November 05 2012 06:11 Sumadin wrote: It is a problem for the mapmaking community that map deviation is at an all time low.It hinders the motivation to create maps in the first place when you know that noone gets their maps in. But i gotta admit i can't see where the quick solution should come from. GSL still does exchange maps regually, but somewhy noone seem to follow suit.
This is indeed a very big problem. Many mapmakers have gone inactive or semi-inactive, no motivation to make maps, the scene doesn't improve nearly as much as it could.
And organizing TLMC really isn't that hard. I mean it's like a MotM just with TL pro coverage skills with nice texts and graphics blabla and more people for testing etc. But I'm certain that it's very easy to motivate people to do this stuff when you are sure that at the end the winning maps will go to ladder.
Basically this.
I use to sit in the sc2 map editor all the time just messing around with everything. Now, at most I log into the editor, play around for 5 minutes, then close it again because it doesn't feel worth it. It's bad because I'll fiddle around with sketches in a notebook on new map designs when I'm bored, but I have no actual motivation to sit down in the editor and create it. Trying to get a map recognized is just about impossible now a day that I don't even log on skype anymore. The major reason I'd use Skype was to talk maps with everybody in the mapping channel, but now since it's infested with Icetoad and Ragoo spamming DoTA garbage that I don't give a rats ass anymore and hence don't log in much at all anymore. (<3)
Let's face it, if you don't run a tournament with a big cash prize then nobody besides the people who visit the sc2 mapping thread actually care for the tournament. We can bitch and complain all we want and nothing is going to happen. The only two ways to get people to actually care about new maps is to get a big name tournament to host a map contest (TL, IPL, MLG, etc) or for the mappers themselves to host a tournament with a giant prize pool. Well, seeing how big name tournaments don't host map contests anymore that is out of the question. Also, I highly doubt someone on the mapping community is going to run a $5,000 map tournament, but if they could do that on a quarterly basis then maybe more maps would get more recognition.
I'm pretty sure Plexa was the one who said most of the community takes this mapper forum as a joke and seeing how he's one of the only admins who care, seeing how very few pro players care and seeing how almost any map related thread that gets into the sc2 general forum doesn't get much replies from non-mappers I think proves it. Until a mapping contest from a big name tournament shows up it's completely a giant waste to sit down and create maps.
I know I've lost Hope. I'm pretty sure a lot of mappers have, hence why a majority of the ones who were map making since beta have gone inactive.
If blizzard was to take one thing from KeSPA, I'm not entirely sure but wasn't their map pool CONSTANTLY updated after every season or two? Tal'Darim Altar has been around far too long by anyone's standards.
On November 06 2012 06:12 Golbat wrote: If blizzard was to take one thing from KeSPA, I'm not entirely sure but wasn't their map pool CONSTANTLY updated after every season or two? Tal'Darim Altar has been around far too long by anyone's standards.
Well as previosly stated this is the time where we should expect the least attention from Blizzard on the main game, just before an expansion. Have been the standard procedure in WOW too for almost 5 years.
On November 05 2012 06:11 Sumadin wrote: It is a problem for the mapmaking community that map deviation is at an all time low.It hinders the motivation to create maps in the first place when you know that noone gets their maps in. But i gotta admit i can't see where the quick solution should come from. GSL still does exchange maps regually, but somewhy noone seem to follow suit.
This is indeed a very big problem. Many mapmakers have gone inactive or semi-inactive, no motivation to make maps, the scene doesn't improve nearly as much as it could.
And organizing TLMC really isn't that hard. I mean it's like a MotM just with TL pro coverage skills with nice texts and graphics blabla and more people for testing etc. But I'm certain that it's very easy to motivate people to do this stuff when you are sure that at the end the winning maps will go to ladder.
Basically this.
I use to sit in the sc2 map editor all the time just messing around with everything. Now, at most I log into the editor, play around for 5 minutes, then close it again because it doesn't feel worth it. It's bad because I'll fiddle around with sketches in a notebook on new map designs when I'm bored, but I have no actual motivation to sit down in the editor and create it. Trying to get a map recognized is just about impossible now a day that I don't even log on skype anymore. The major reason I'd use Skype was to talk maps with everybody in the mapping channel, but now since it's infested with Icetoad and Ragoo spamming DoTA garbage that I don't give a rats ass anymore and hence don't log in much at all anymore. (<3)
Let's face it, if you don't run a tournament with a big cash prize then nobody besides the people who visit the sc2 mapping thread actually care for the tournament. We can bitch and complain all we want and nothing is going to happen. The only two ways to get people to actually care about new maps is to get a big name tournament to host a map contest (TL, IPL, MLG, etc) or for the mappers themselves to host a tournament with a giant prize pool. Well, seeing how big name tournaments don't host map contests anymore that is out of the question. Also, I highly doubt someone on the mapping community is going to run a $5,000 map tournament, but if they could do that on a quarterly basis then maybe more maps would get more recognition.
I'm pretty sure Plexa was the one who said most of the community takes this mapper forum as a joke and seeing how he's one of the only admins who care, seeing how very few pro players care and seeing how almost any map related thread that gets into the sc2 general forum doesn't get much replies from non-mappers I think proves it. Until a mapping contest from a big name tournament shows up it's completely a giant waste to sit down and create maps.
I know I've lost Hope. I'm pretty sure a lot of mappers have, hence why a majority of the ones who were map making since beta have gone inactive.
I never got this recognition stuff and if this is what you're after you won't get it. I'm sorry, just as as only the top few can get recognition as a player, so as a mapmaker. Do you play this game to become famous at it or because you enjoy it? The tournament scene will never be able to sustain letting random people on this forum gaining recognition, just as random people on the SC2strategy forum won't ever get recognition as a player.
It's like that sad story of that platinum league player to go to Korea to become a pro honestly. If you have no interest in making maps because you're not getting recognition rather than the creative joy of mapping itself then I guess it's not for you. It's like doing a job you don't like because it pays more.
I totally get where Sidian is coming from. There are no opportunities for map makers. Without opportunity there's nothing to strive for and very little reason to mess around. No tournament is willing to look at new maps so theres basically no reason to map except to practice.
Basically, the problem with map making is that the map making 'skill ceiling' if you will isn't that high, if you're good, say Crux level (analogue to a pro player), you aren't a bazillion times better than your average decent amateur (say a random master league player). If I go up against a pro I will get smashed. This doesn't exist so clearly in mapmaking meaning that it's hard for the best mapmakers (doesn't help that this is subjective) to differentiate themselves.
So even if you are the best and you put your foot down and say 'Yo, you can only use my maps if you pay me raw cold cash', tournament organizers will just be like 'Hmmkay, let's go to the second best then, people will hardly notice the difference.' whereas if you're Stephano you can basically call up Mr. Chae and say 'Yo bitch, gimme a GSL code S seed' and they will kick a random KeSPA player they promised it to first out just to get Stephano into it because they know everyone wants to see that.
But in any case, if you do something like mapmaking to get recogition then there's not a lot of hobbies out there for you I'm afraid, very few people get recognition in any thing.
I totally get where Sidian is coming from. There are no opportunities for map makers. Without opportunity there's nothing to strive for and very little reason to mess around. No tournament is willing to look at new maps so theres basically no reason to map except to practice.
Yes.
It's crazy that commentators get all the recognition when it comes to non-players in the SC2 scene (while getting paid), but the job of a good dedicated observer or a good mapmaker (or even a good production crew, although they also get paid ) is arguably harder. Not harder in terms of raw hours or amount of travel necessary, but difficulty-wise. Having a little game knowledge and being comfortable talking in front of a camera is not as hard as not missing anything while observing, while also catching most/all of the little things that happen in a game that a mediocre observer or caster who is observing would miss. Or balancing a map for all matchups while still bringing something fresh and interesting to the table and making it appealing to look at. And making it fun to play.
Not here to bash casters at all, as they are very necessary and the best ones are quite talented, but it's messed up everyone cares so much about them and not the other important people behind the scenes.
So I see where Sidian is coming from as well. Unless you still have a great love for the game and the map creation process (which some of us are fortunate enough to still have that fire - hopefully we don't burn out as well), there's no reason to keep mapping.
EPT
) is arguably harder. Not harder in terms of raw hours or amount of travel necessary, but difficulty-wise. Having a little game knowledge and being comfortable talking in front of a camera is not as hard as not missing anything while observing, while also catching most/all of the little things that happen in a game that a mediocre observer or caster who is observing would miss. Or balancing a map for all matchups while still bringing something fresh and interesting to the table and making it appealing to look at. And making it fun to play.
