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On November 05 2012 02:22 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 02:02 ArcticRaven wrote:On November 05 2012 00:18 SiskosGoatee wrote:
As you can see, there is plenty of disagreement amongst all people what constitutes a good map But you're the only one that thinks we shouldn't try to add new maps. You're the only one who thinks nothing should be done. Where am I saying that? I'd love to add new maps. I'm just saying that no matter what makes you add, people are going to remain dissatisfied. I'd love to add the maps I personally like, like everyone, and the maps I like are going to be disliked by other people, just as with everyone.
An observation that makes no difference. This is not a reason to do nothing, it's just one more thing to keep in mind. This is why reasoned discussion is necessary, this is why the community is so important for this. We need to come up with some process that allows us to push maps that the largest number of people like. It's not as if every map will be half-loved and half-hated, there will be a consensus that can be reached. That's why discussion is needed.
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On November 05 2012 02:22 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 02:02 ArcticRaven wrote:On November 05 2012 00:18 SiskosGoatee wrote:
As you can see, there is plenty of disagreement amongst all people what constitutes a good map But you're the only one that thinks we shouldn't try to add new maps. You're the only one who thinks nothing should be done. Where am I saying that? I'd love to add new maps. I'm just saying that no matter what makes you add, people are going to remain dissatisfied. I'd love to add the maps I personally like, like everyone, and the maps I like are going to be disliked by other people, just as with everyone.
Oh ok. It's just that you give the exact opposite impression.
I realize I don't even know what you're arguing for. Reading again the thread, you started derailing it just to repeat your opinion from Timetwister's thread.
Could you say whether you agree with those affirmations ? Again, I would just like you to make your position clear, because so far you've been mostly disagreeing and you haven't really been saying anything.
-The current pool isn't fine.
-Community maps can make the game better.
-The judges for new maps need to be professionals/mapmakers/the whole community.
-Good/bad maps exist.
-Mapmakers/professionals/the community can decide which maps are good and which maps are not.
-There hasn't been a Blizzard map as good as most played community/Korean maps yet.
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On November 05 2012 02:48 ArcticRaven wrote:
Could you say whether you agree with those affirmations ? Again, I would just like you to make your position clear, because so far you've been mostly disagreeing and you haven't really been saying anything.
-The current pool isn't fine.
I personally think the current map pool isn't fine, this is a subjective assesment of mine, nothing objective.
-Community maps can make the game better.
Maps made by any party have the capacty to make the game, subjectively, better, pending on what your assesment of better is.
-The judges for new maps need to be professionals/mapmakers/the whole community. There are no professional mapmakers. There are a bunch of 'teams' and they claim that they are professional but they are not, they are just a group of people who make maps, very few of those end up in the tournament circuit, there is no empirical justification at the moment for the idea that they are better or worse than Blizzard. Though they claim they are.
I have no idea who the judges of new maps are supposed to be. That's why I feel the map pool should just be larger and people should be given more vetoes so everyone is happy. A 15 map pool with 7 vetos or something.
-Good/bad maps exist. Nope, not in the objective sense.
-Mapmakers/professionals/the community can decide which maps are good and which maps are not. Nope, see above, there are no professionals in this field at the moment, everyone is an amateur, no is is getting paid. Crux is the only team with some semblance of proffesionality going on. TPW and ESV are just hobbyists who like to make maps, their maps are currently not successful or used a lot.
-There hasn't been a Blizzard map as good as most played community/Korean maps yet. Good is again subjective, however, in my personal opinion. Antiga Shipyard is far superior to Ohana so that serves as a counter example.
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I never said mapmakers were professional - and I think you're pretty quick to jump to conclusions on what you want to hear.
I meant professional players.
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On November 05 2012 02:58 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 02:48 ArcticRaven wrote:
Could you say whether you agree with those affirmations ? Again, I would just like you to make your position clear, because so far you've been mostly disagreeing and you haven't really been saying anything.
-The current pool isn't fine.
I personally think the current map pool isn't fine, this is a subjective assesment of mine, nothing objective. Maps made by any party have the capacty to make the game, subjectively, better, pending on what your assesment of better is. Show nested quote + -The judges for new maps need to be professionals/mapmakers/the whole community. There are no professional mapmakers. There are a bunch of 'teams' and they claim that they are professional but they are not, they are just a group of people who make maps, very few of those end up in the tournament circuit, there is no empirical justification at the moment for the idea that they are better or worse than Blizzard. Though they claim they are. I have no idea who the judges of new maps are supposed to be. That's why I feel the map pool should just be larger and people should be given more vetoes so everyone is happy. A 15 map pool with 7 vetos or something. Nope, not in the objective sense. Show nested quote +-Mapmakers/professionals/the community can decide which maps are good and which maps are not. Nope, see above, there are no professionals in this field at the moment, everyone is an amateur, no is is getting paid. Crux is the only team with some semblance of proffesionality going on. TPW and ESV are just hobbyists who like to make maps, their maps are currently not successful or used a lot. Show nested quote +-There hasn't been a Blizzard map as good as most played community/Korean maps yet. Good is again subjective, however, in my personal opinion. Antiga Shipyard is far superior to Ohana so that serves as a counter example.
He isn't saying professional mapmakers, we know that technically they don't exist yet, he means professional players, mapmakers, and the community should each have a voice.
Anyway, all I'm getting from your posts is that you actually have no idea what to do, and instead seek to suggest that we also have no idea what to do. Whether a map is good is not purely subjective. It is to an extent, but I could easily make a handful of shitty maps that nobody would ever want to see in competitive play. Instead of poking holes in something that can be done, try to contribute something, and if you can't do that, just leave us be. You were never appointed to any position, you're not being forced into it.
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On November 03 2012 03:40 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Apart from that, it's your opinion that it's a badly designed map. This is the entire underlying point, that some people act like their opinions are facts. There's a reason GOMTV removed Ohana and kept Antiga and my hunch is that this is viewer numbers. Antiga has a certain inclination to generate 'memorable games' that people look vods up because the design lends itself to tense situations where both are highly mined out and have troubles securing a third, Ohana tends to create boring games that aren't memorable.
what is important is having a map rotation. while you might enjoy seeing antiga for the next 5 years of sc2, many others dont. it was pretty funny to see the comments in blizzard's blog post about the new season, every one of them being about wanting new maps.in sc2. the game is stagnated. you have general builds like ling infestor that come first before specific map strategies. having a map rotation atleast allows players some differentiation on how they play the match, ie the obvious differences in matches between daybreak and antiga.
now, if you have these blizzard-sponsored 'map contests', you end up having a small group of people with their own set of opinions, who are essentially controlling the map pool. which in itself is a retarded idea, because who says they are more qualified to do that over a mapper, a progamer, or an average joe in the community? an example, you look at the tlmc results where the judges picked korhol #1.
this is why most mappers want a continuously rotating map pool. so that players can constantly have new experiences in sc2, so that race strategies and player dominance can evolve with the ever changing map environment. this specifically is what had kept bw alive and entertaining for over a decade. some maps will be brilliant, some maps won't. you will never know until you give them the playtime exposure.
also personally speaking, you are a highly annoying poster. for the entire thread, you are just arguing semantics and 'opinions' and adding absolutely nothing to the discussion. all you are doing is replying to people and pissing them off with non-directional nonsense. you don't need 50 posts to tell people you like in your opinion antiga better than ohana.
On November 05 2012 02:58 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote + -The judges for new maps need to be professionals/mapmakers/the whole community. There are no professional mapmakers. There are a bunch of 'teams' and they claim that they are professional but they are not, they are just a group of people who make maps, very few of those end up in the tournament circuit, there is no empirical justification at the moment for the idea that they are better or worse than Blizzard. Though they claim they are. I have no idea who the judges of new maps are supposed to be. That's why I feel the map pool should just be larger and people should be given more vetoes so everyone is happy. A 15 map pool with 7 vetos or something. Nope, not in the objective sense. Show nested quote +-Mapmakers/professionals/the community can decide which maps are good and which maps are not. Nope, see above, there are no professionals in this field at the moment, everyone is an amateur, no is is getting paid. Crux is the only team with some semblance of proffesionality going on. TPW and ESV are just hobbyists who like to make maps, their maps are currently not successful or used a lot.
if you do not understand or know why these maps are not 'used' or 'successful' then i dont even know what you are doing in this thread.
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On November 05 2012 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 02:58 SiskosGoatee wrote:On November 05 2012 02:48 ArcticRaven wrote:
Could you say whether you agree with those affirmations ? Again, I would just like you to make your position clear, because so far you've been mostly disagreeing and you haven't really been saying anything.
-The current pool isn't fine.
I personally think the current map pool isn't fine, this is a subjective assesment of mine, nothing objective. -Community maps can make the game better.
Maps made by any party have the capacty to make the game, subjectively, better, pending on what your assesment of better is. -The judges for new maps need to be professionals/mapmakers/the whole community. There are no professional mapmakers. There are a bunch of 'teams' and they claim that they are professional but they are not, they are just a group of people who make maps, very few of those end up in the tournament circuit, there is no empirical justification at the moment for the idea that they are better or worse than Blizzard. Though they claim they are. I have no idea who the judges of new maps are supposed to be. That's why I feel the map pool should just be larger and people should be given more vetoes so everyone is happy. A 15 map pool with 7 vetos or something. -Good/bad maps exist. Nope, not in the objective sense. -Mapmakers/professionals/the community can decide which maps are good and which maps are not. Nope, see above, there are no professionals in this field at the moment, everyone is an amateur, no is is getting paid. Crux is the only team with some semblance of proffesionality going on. TPW and ESV are just hobbyists who like to make maps, their maps are currently not successful or used a lot. -There hasn't been a Blizzard map as good as most played community/Korean maps yet. Good is again subjective, however, in my personal opinion. Antiga Shipyard is far superior to Ohana so that serves as a counter example. He isn't saying professional mapmakers, we know that technically they don't exist yet, he means professional players, mapmakers, and the community should each have a voice. Ah yes, I misread in that sense then.
Anyway, all I'm getting from your posts is that you actually have no idea what to do, and instead seek to suggest that we also have no idea what to do. Oh, you have plenty ideas, I'm just quite sure most them have huge caveats in them and I'm highly sceptical they will work, there is a difference.
Instead of poking holes in something that can be done, try to contribute something, and if you can't do that, just leave us be. You were never appointed to any position, you're not being forced into it.
This is such silly mentality honestly:
- A: Hey, we got this cool idea of a propulsion that allows faster than light travel.
- B: Yeah, that's nice and all, but here's the flaw in this idea.
- A: Well, how would you travel faster than light then instea dof picking out our flaws?
- B: You can't, Einstein showed that no object without a rest mass with a nonzero imaginary part can travel faster than light.
- A: Well, if you have nothing to contribute, just go away.
- B: I don't think you understand, you will never be able to travel faster than light!
- A: Contribute on how to travel faster than light or gtfo!
I'm sorry, but pointing out why some things people want to do be done cannot be done is contributing to the discussion, the sad thing of this world is that the overwhelming majority of problems does not have a solution whatsoever.
The 'problem' in this case is that people are dissatisfied with the map pool. And you will never all be satisfied with it because each of you like different maps so there will always be maps in the map pool that a lot of people don't like, furthermore, some people actually don't like quick rotation and like to still be able to play on their old favourite maps and hate to see them gone. So yeah, whatever map pool you end up with, unless by cosmological coincidence, you're going to dislike a very large portion of them.
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I think I've finally understood what your problem is.
You think getting a less stale map pool is impossible because people disagree on things, right ?
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On November 05 2012 03:41 SiskosGoatee wrote:
This is such silly mentality honestly:
- A: Hey, we got this cool idea of a propulsion that allows faster than light travel.
- B: Yeah, that's nice and all, but here's the flaw in this idea.
- A: Well, how would you travel faster than light then instea dof picking out our flaws?
- B: You can't, Einstein showed that no object without a rest mass with a nonzero imaginary part can travel faster than light.
- A: Well, if you have nothing to contribute, just go away.
- B: I don't think you understand, you will never be able to travel faster than light!
- A: Contribute on how to travel faster than light or gtfo!
I'm sorry, but pointing out why some things people want to do be done cannot be done is contributing to the discussion, the sad thing of this world is that the overwhelming majority of problems does not have a solution whatsoever.
I agree. That's not what this is though. Remember the Union thread? For the first couple of pages, you and a couple of others did that very thing, which is important. We need to be aware of potential problems so we can avoid them and work around them. But for the last several pages of that thread and the entirety of this one, you've said literally nothing that hasn't been said a dozen times. We're not stupid, we can read. Posting it 100 times just makes you a detriment and a distraction, a troll, if you want to go there(I suspect you have).
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On November 05 2012 03:48 ArcticRaven wrote:
I think I've finally understood what your problem is.
You think getting a less stale map pool is impossible because people disagree on things, right ? Not stale isn't impossible, but making everyone happy is. And keep in mind that some people like a stale map pool. Blizzard has to try to please everyone. Including people in the lowest depths of bronze and most importantly people just starting multiplayer.
On November 05 2012 03:50 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 03:41 SiskosGoatee wrote:
This is such silly mentality honestly:
- A: Hey, we got this cool idea of a propulsion that allows faster than light travel.
- B: Yeah, that's nice and all, but here's the flaw in this idea.
- A: Well, how would you travel faster than light then instea dof picking out our flaws?
- B: You can't, Einstein showed that no object without a rest mass with a nonzero imaginary part can travel faster than light.
- A: Well, if you have nothing to contribute, just go away.
- B: I don't think you understand, you will never be able to travel faster than light!
- A: Contribute on how to travel faster than light or gtfo!
I'm sorry, but pointing out why some things people want to do be done cannot be done is contributing to the discussion, the sad thing of this world is that the overwhelming majority of problems does not have a solution whatsoever. I agree. That's not what this is though. Remember the Union thread? For the first couple of pages, you and a couple of others did that very thing, which is important. We need to be aware of potential problems so we can avoid them and work around them. But for the last several pages of that thread and the entirety of this one, you've said literally nothing that hasn't been said a dozen times. We're not stupid, we can read. Posting it 100 times just makes you a detriment and a distraction, a troll, if you want to go there(I suspect you have).
I'm pretty sure they haven't, because people continue to say things that I haven't said, such as that I supposedly think that balance is all that matters and fun isn't, which wasn't my point, my point was that different people have different ideas of what a fun map is and if people didn't get that, then yes, then I have to repeat it.
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On November 05 2012 04:05 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm pretty sure they haven't, because people continue to say things that I haven't said, such as that I supposedly think that balance is all that matters and fun isn't, which wasn't my point, my point was that different people have different ideas of what a fun map is and if people didn't get that, then yes, then I have to repeat it.
It bears no repeating.
On November 05 2012 02:26 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 02:22 SiskosGoatee wrote:On November 05 2012 02:02 ArcticRaven wrote:On November 05 2012 00:18 SiskosGoatee wrote:
As you can see, there is plenty of disagreement amongst all people what constitutes a good map But you're the only one that thinks we shouldn't try to add new maps. You're the only one who thinks nothing should be done. Where am I saying that? I'd love to add new maps. I'm just saying that no matter what makes you add, people are going to remain dissatisfied. I'd love to add the maps I personally like, like everyone, and the maps I like are going to be disliked by other people, just as with everyone. An observation that makes no difference. This is not a reason to do nothing, it's just one more thing to keep in mind. This is why reasoned discussion is necessary, this is why the community is so important for this. We need to come up with some process that allows us to push maps that the largest number of people like. It's not as if every map will be half-loved and half-hated, there will be a consensus that can be reached. That's why discussion is needed.
It's been covered.
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On November 05 2012 04:05 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 03:48 ArcticRaven wrote:
I think I've finally understood what your problem is.
You think getting a less stale map pool is impossible because people disagree on things, right ? Not stale isn't impossible, but making everyone happy is. And keep in mind that some people like a stale map pool. Blizzard has to try to please everyone. Including people in the lowest depths of bronze and most importantly people just starting multiplayer.
Ok so you think we're idealists trying to make everyone happy ?
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Right i see alot of talk about how we must do something, and the discussion really goes on what should be done. I have to bring a point forward. Are we in a position to do anything about the current map pools? We can discuss all we want about who who would be better at picking a map pool but i think that it is also time to discuss who CAN pick the map pool.
MLG is THE prime example of how powerless the community is with regards to selecting maps.
If we look at other other smaller tournements the tendency is the same. The map pools all use the same maps with GSL being the one exception. I talked about this already 3 months ago and it is largely still the same pool that was being used. It was in Diamonds Map pool creation thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=338532¤tpage=3#51 Personally i call that pool the "ladder six" through metropolis is getting phased out.
That was 3 months ago and already back then this pool was stagnated. Overall nothing have really changed. I would say this pool have been running for about 7 months now. Completely unchanged.
It is a problem for the mapmaking community that map deviation is at an all time low.It hinders the motivation to create maps in the first place when you know that noone gets their maps in. But i gotta admit i can't see where the quick solution should come from. GSL still does exchange maps regually, but somewhy noone seem to follow suit.
MLG is really is the biggest offender here. They had the same map pool unchanged for over half a year. And when they finally changed it they just added in the one map in the ladder six pool that they didn't use already.
And then there is Blizzard. While five of the ladder six pool still are in the ladder i have a tough time really blaming it on Blizzard. There is 2 reasons. First of all while people critize them for not adding community maps and taking in their own "trash" map, this is how they have always acted. They don't take in community map unless they have already been tried and tested by tournements, they have never done that. And the one time they did take in a GSL map that was sorta new, metropolis, it soon turned out to be one of the most broken map ever both in balance and in design. Heavy lag made metropolis have the douptful honor of being the second map ever to get removed from ladder mid-season. And here begs the question. Which community map outside of the standard pool is currently tested enough to be considered ladder worthy? Because tournements are not bringing in anything new. And even through Blizzard actually have added a new map of their own noone uses it.
The second reason i don't blame Blizzard is that HOTS is coming up. Coming up from WOW i can tell you one thing. This is the season where you can expect least to be done from Blizzard. All their reassources usually gets focused on the expansion and you can also see it in the map pool changes or lack of thereoff. Infact if you take a look at the seasons up until now it is easy to see a pattern. As we got closer to HOTS less and less maps got changed. Sure better overall map balance can be one reason but i think it also tells me that Blizzard have gradually moved their map team over to focus mostly on HOTS. This will probably also mean that once HOTS gets launched we will see Blizzard implementing their own maps in a pace we saw back in season 3. But as for right now it means we can't expect anything here.
I really think our best bet is to try and put some pressure on tournements MLG most of all. Their Winter seasson is about to start and season change seems to be the only time they are willing to do the changes to the map pool.
And i am going to cut it off here before this turns into another Novel... too late. Well nevermind.
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No, pray tell me more, your position is quite well thought of and you consider a lot of things I haven't yet considered.
What I would like to add though is that if Blizzard can add their own maps that haven't been tournament hardened via internal testing, surely they can internally test community maps and add those then?
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Well, that's exactly what they're promising. They're gonna organuize a contest, see what comes up, test those internally and add the ones they like.
Now you know why everyone's happy 
Edit : and you also know why some people are skeptical - it's all words for now.
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What kind of testing does Blizzard do lol? It doesn't really matter if a map has been played a few times, or even a few hundred times.
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On November 05 2012 06:26 ArcticRaven wrote:Well, that's exactly what they're promising. They're gonna organuize a contest, see what comes up, test those internally and add the ones they like. Now you know why everyone's happy What if they come with a couple of maps that you consider terrible? I reckon that's going to happen because well, as I said, everyone considers different maps terrible.
On November 05 2012 06:28 EatThePath wrote:
What kind of testing does Blizzard do lol? It doesn't really matter if a map has been played a few times, or even a few hundred times.
No one knows. My guess is that they just rule a map imbalanced if anyone can beat David Kim on it in any matchup.
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Sumadin's totally right about MLG but I don't see how we can put any more pressure on MLG than Blizzard. Ohana/Cloud Kingdom were getting some pretty heavy exposure but it was ultimately Blizzard who truly inspired nearly every SC2 tournament to add Ohana and Cloud Kingdom when they were added to the ladder pool.
There needs to be a semi-automated system for submitting, testing, and approving maps on the Blizzard SC2 ladder. Arbitrary contests are not enough - though TLMC was of course a great thing. It is extremely difficult to implement a community map contest such as TLMC as often as we actually need new ladder maps - and I do not think swapping 2 - 3 maps at a time like we did with TLMC is ideal, though it was honestly needed at the time.Even if only 1 map were switched out per season, it is unlikely that every map that makes it in will end up as balanced in every matchup, but considering how many tournaments are still playing on Metropolis, I don't see how it could be much worse if a "bad" map leaks through once in awhile, it's better than having zero maps leak through at all to the Blizzard ladder now.
Sumadin always has pretty baller posts in the map forums.
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I don't think MLG is an example of how the community is powerless. It's the opposite. Thousands of people tune in to watch MLG. So they go with what works. If it wasn't working they'd be much more comfortable trying new things to try and make it work. They're getting tons of mileage out of Koreans visiting MLGs, and everyone eats it up. The wider SC2 audience isn't discerning enough to demand new maps. As long as they're watching good games the pressure's off.
Luckily Blizzard seems to realize that map rotation could make it even better.
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On November 05 2012 06:30 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 06:26 ArcticRaven wrote:Well, that's exactly what they're promising. They're gonna organuize a contest, see what comes up, test those internally and add the ones they like. Now you know why everyone's happy What if they come with a couple of maps that you consider terrible? I reckon that's going to happen because well, as I said, everyone considers different maps terrible.
As much as this may shock you, I'm the kind of guy that will just accept other people's judgements sometimes. Like mostly everyone. And I think I'll trust Blizzard when it comes to choosing between community maps.
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EPT
