EPTBlizzard about the map pool - Page 2
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Ethoex
United States164 Posts
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On November 02 2012 12:21 Fatam wrote: One concern I have w/ the prospect of Blizzard having some sort of community-based decision on what maps might be on the ladder (it sounds like this might be a possibility, although we don't know much) is - whatever map looks the prettiest from the overview picture will get the most votes, regardless of gameplay innovation or balance. That was exactly what happened when metropolis got voted into ladder. Even now after all the lag problems and imbalance it is still a map people say they want back in. Serriously it rivals steppes of war and lost temple in imbalance. | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 02 2012 18:49 archonOOid wrote: Why can't we, the community, vote in and out 1-2 maps per season? Then the mapmakers could compete for slots each season. Because, bluntly, the community has no idea what makes a good map. See metropolis for why this didn't work out. | ||
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Callynn
Netherlands917 Posts
On November 02 2012 19:28 Plexa wrote: Because, bluntly, the community has no idea what makes a good map. See metropolis for why this didn't work out. Exactly, the 'community' is an assemblage of 90% people who know less about mapmaking than Blizzard does. We would probably end up with even worse map pools. That being said, the other 5-10% of the community will do far better a job than Blizzard. The problem with how to get a good representative group of people to create map pools in name of the community for Blizzard remains, though I think Barrin should be the president of that group  | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16124 Posts
Not every community map should be on the ladder though and that's just the truth of it. Whirlwind would make a horrible ladder map as an example. Blizzard needs a new system that will make their overall process of choosing and editing maps more efficient. That said, Tal'Darim Altar and Shakuras Plateau REALLY need to leave the map pool. | ||
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lefix
Germany1082 Posts
On November 02 2012 19:28 Plexa wrote: Because, bluntly, the community has no idea what makes a good map. See metropolis for why this didn't work out. That problem is easily solved when you only give them carefully selected maps to vote on. The only remaining problem would be that we could end up with ~10 beach maps eventually. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On November 02 2012 20:19 lefix wrote: That problem is easily solved when you only give them carefully selected maps to vote on. The only remaining problem would be that we could end up with ~10 beach maps eventually. If you have a team able to carefully pick some good maps why not let them do the entire map choosing rather than putting in a vote among people who got no idea... Seems illogical to me. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
I hope this time the organizers put effort into picking decent judges too, this means what people suggested at the time of the 1st TLMC : judges representing shoutcasters, tournament organisers, pro players and mappers. Please don't pick random forum moderators this was a bad idea. I hope this time we don't end up with broken maps like Haven's Lagoon or Korhal Compound. And I hope HOTS incitates judges to pick new concepts, and not picking standard maps that already won previous motm just as a way to get promotion. 2,5 years of picking standard maps at motm didn't help winning maps at all so it's time to try what some mappers have kept saying all these years. Pick new concepts. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On November 02 2012 03:57 a176 wrote: Might have something to do with the fact that TDA is used in tournaments after 2 years and Korhal Compound was never picked up. (even though I loved the map), but it was perceived to have certain issues like a too far away third which could be hit by tanks from a high ground. The stuff I like, but it's not for everyone I gather.They had no issue removing korhal after a brief period of time, yet taldarim is still in after 2 years. On November 02 2012 04:54 Diamond wrote: Surely you understand that the purpose of the beta is to test if say the mothership core can make PvP work with a 2 width ramp or if the new units can make an inbase expo like that work? It's a beta, it's not meant for people to have fun or epic games, it's for Blizzard to test out how the new units play out in certain conditions and therefore try out radical new map designs to see if they can be balanced with the new units.Yet no maps are in the beta from WoL, instead they throw in a 2v2 map. Nice. Anyway, my concerns echo those I outed in the mapmaking union thread: - Some mapmaking teams style themselves authoritative in judging what a good map is, but they have no proof (numbers) to back this notion up. They also some-what embarrass themselves by repeatedly claiming that Antiga is TvZ imbalanced for instance while stats show it is not, doesn't make the impression you know what you're talking about. - Diamond needs to stop vilifying the people he needs and stop calling them idiots, they have monetary concerns and are actual business people who try to run a profitable business on a level he, quite honestly, does not understand the complexity of, it isn't as simple as he thinks - The community is by no means unified over what it considers good and bad maps. What people fail to realize when they say 'The map pool sucks, we want new maps!' is that everyone wants different maps out and different maps in. No matter which maps are going to be put in, people are going to be unsatisfied, people are also going to be pissed at their favourite maps removed. - The community is angry and biased towards 'Blizzard maps' and had Newkirk City come from ESV people would've probably praised its 'interesting new layout'. I mean, let's be honest here, the flaws that exist on it also exist on Cherno and then some. | ||
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Incomplet
United Kingdom1419 Posts
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lefix
Germany1082 Posts
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On November 02 2012 20:51 SiskosGoatee wrote: Might have something to do with the fact that TDA is used in tournaments after 2 years and Korhal Compound was never picked up. (even though I loved the map), but it was perceived to have certain issues like a too far away third which could be hit by tanks from a high ground. The stuff I like, but it's not for everyone I gather. Surely you understand that the purpose of the beta is to test if say the mothership core can make PvP work with a 2 width ramp or if the new units can make an inbase expo like that work? It's a beta, it's not meant for people to have fun or epic games, it's for Blizzard to test out how the new units play out in certain conditions and therefore try out radical new map designs to see if they can be balanced with the new units. Anyway, my concerns echo those I outed in the mapmaking union thread: - Some mapmaking teams style themselves authoritative in judging what a good map is, but they have no proof (numbers) to back this notion up. They also some-what embarrass themselves by repeatedly claiming that Antiga is TvZ imbalanced for instance while stats show it is not, doesn't make the impression you know what you're talking about. - Diamond needs to stop vilifying the people he needs and stop calling them idiots, they have monetary concerns and are actual business people who try to run a profitable business on a level he, quite honestly, does not understand the complexity of, it isn't as simple as he thinks - The community is by no means unified over what it considers good and bad maps. What people fail to realize when they say 'The map pool sucks, we want new maps!' is that everyone wants different maps out and different maps in. No matter which maps are going to be put in, people are going to be unsatisfied, people are also going to be pissed at their favourite maps removed. - The community is angry and biased towards 'Blizzard maps' and had Newkirk City come from ESV people would've probably praised its 'interesting new layout'. I mean, let's be honest here, the flaws that exist on it also exist on Cherno and then some. Agree with all of those points. Community bias against Blizzard maps is something i see alot. This is especially true for the new HOTS maps. It is like they activly look for the one thing to criticise on the map. Take Korhal city. All i hear is "Oh it is a 2v2 map" when it clearly isn't. Sure its initial main and natural looks like that but from there you get a completely holdable third that still take some effort to hold. Even through it is rotational symetric there doesn't seem to be a larger positional imbalance. The collabseable rocks at third allows you to harras the third prior to your opponent actually making it. All of it is innovative use of new mechanics. If all it took to mark a map as bad was an empty argument then i could shoot down every single map in the current pool including the community ones. I really think we should wait and see. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
btw, does noone else think that this new map might be the best hots map so far, if not one of the best blizzard maps ever? :D Its layout is very simmilar to Shakuras plateu. But this one is not 3 years old so i guess that is what make it the best one ever. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On November 02 2012 03:57 a176 wrote: TLMC was just about 1 year ago. There has been numerous GSL map additions in that time. They had no issue removing korhal after a brief period of time, yet taldarim is still in after 2 years. I have no faith left in blizzard to do anything that concerns the community. Blizzard makes the best maps by far though. | ||
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
On November 02 2012 20:51 SiskosGoatee wrote: - The community is by no means unified over what it considers good and bad maps. What people fail to realize when they say 'The map pool sucks, we want new maps!' is that everyone wants different maps out and different maps in. No matter which maps are going to be put in, people are going to be unsatisfied, people are also going to be pissed at their favourite maps removed. Oh, I don't think a lot of people would disagree on removing TDA, Antiga or Shakuras. Also how is the community not being unified over maps a problem ? Nations are not unified over who makes the best leader, that's why we have those things called elections I believe, never heard about those ? You're the only one disagreeing here, and you don't even make serious/playable maps. - The community is angry and biased towards 'Blizzard maps' and had Newkirk City come from ESV people would've probably praised its 'interesting new layout'. I mean, let's be honest here, the flaws that exist on it also exist on Cherno and then some. Oh and nice strawman there. Community bias against Blizzard maps is something i see alot. This is especially true for the new HOTS maps. It is like they activly look for the one thing to criticise on the map. Take Korhal city. All i hear is "Oh it is a 2v2 map" when it clearly isn't. Sure its initial main and natural looks like that but from there you get a completely holdable third that still take some effort to hold. Even through it is rotational symetric there doesn't seem to be a larger positional imbalance. The collabseable rocks at third allows you to harras the third prior to your opponent actually making it. All of it is innovative use of new mechanics. Actively ? Well, I don't have to search very deep to see that remaking Terminus with an inbase natural and unwallable ramps isn't a good idea. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On November 02 2012 22:03 Sumadin wrote: Its layout is very simmilar to Shakuras plateu. But this one is not 3 years old so i guess that is what make it the best one ever. They look similar, but in game they're noticeably different. One of the main things about Shakuras was the gigantic open space between the natural and 3rd, this map doesn't have this. Also, the extra expansion(the one with 2 rocks) does 2 things: 1) changes the expansion possibilities, with one more direction to expand in after taking the forward 3rd. 2) it allows for a new tactic where you take the expansion and then seal off the only entrance, encouraging air attacks. I know, harassment and drops were all very popular on Shakuras, but for a different reason, the proportions and setup of the maps are just different, and that extra expansion changes things as well. Overall, it's a solid map, with a couple of changes that make the gameplay vary in some interesting places. But it's hard to see these things from just an overview. | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On November 02 2012 03:57 a176 wrote: TLMC was just about 1 year ago. There has been numerous GSL map additions in that time. They had no issue removing korhal after a brief period of time, yet taldarim is still in after 2 years. I have no faith left in blizzard to do anything that concerns the community. They don't do all things you want and this makes you to have "no" faith left. Good. Because faith isn't required. They showed that they care, but they cannot do all things at once. SC2 isn't a small school project where someone can incorporate feedback without going through a lot of instances to keep the project consistent. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On November 02 2012 23:35 ArcticRaven wrote: Yeah, so you clearly never witnessed a discussion about this on reddit where a lot of people voice very different opinions on all these maps. I'm personally not a fan of TDA or Shakuras but I'm madly in love with Antiga Shipyard when it's cross only.Oh, I don't think a lot of people would disagree on removing TDA, Antiga or Shakuras Also how is the community not being unified over maps a problem ? Nations are not unified over who makes the best leader, that's why we have those things called elections I believe, never heard about those ? You're the only one disagreeing here, and you don't even make serious/playable maps. Because the fact that every four years roughly 49% of the US is very dissatisfied with the election results is a problem?Anyway, as you can see in this thread, the opinions on Newkirk and Korhal City or whatever it's called are already quite divided. | ||
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