The MotM September tournament has arrived! This month we a hosting a $400 prize pool, max 512-player competition with public replays casted by ROOTAxeltoss. Each game will be played out on a map pool of the 5 winning maps from the map contest, seen here (MotM September). If you want information on the tournament, see here:
Prize pool breakdown: $250 winner, $100 second place, $50 third place. Note: the prize pool is not listed on the playhem signup page, we will be transferring directly via paypal.
Mapmakers, please make sure your maps are uploaded to the NA server under these given names (team tags are acceptable). If there is a problem with uploading, please let me know well before the 29th.
This month the judges filled out score cards. Much discussion was held afterwards, and we were forced to make compromises to pick the top 5. Not all the highest ranking maps won- a few maps that weren't the highest rated got in because of our discussion. We want a mix of standard maps, innovative maps, and I think we all wanted to see how one or two played at a competitive level.
The link to the google document containing scores and feedback can be found here. For everybody that is looking at this, please do not to change anything, I am trusting you. As we move forward, more comments may be added by the judges. Most of our decisions were based on skype conversations, so what may look like "not much feedback" is just that we didn't have time to write down all of our thoughts in the document.
Thanks to everybody who submitted and good luck to the tournament participants!
Grats to the winners and let's hope for a worthy tournament.
Personally I'm not that convinced about Rust in Peace. Yes it's a decent 3p map, meaning it's not horrible. I did prefer Ancient Fates or Aradia however.
Not a bad line-up and congrats to Dream Forge for a finalist map in their first ever Motm! Also lol at the sheer number of 0s handed out by Nightmarjoo.
Oh I guess it is time to get up a map thread! Very happy with getting my map included in top5. Congratulations to the other map makers! Hopefully we will see a high level of play and entertaining matches. Really looking forward to the show.
I assume Astro Haze cannot make much damage anyway being set not before the final. But I will not complain. It should be a guaranteed high level match. :D gl hf!
Btw I would have liked to see Rkynick's map. I thought it would be quite interesting.
Maps are great for the most part, grats winners! I think seeing the judging is pretty interesting - they disagree on most maps. But maybe that is a good system, to have judges that have very different POVs. Are those scores out of 10? cuz almost no one got above 8 LOL
The scores are not meant to be taken literally. The maps I gave 0s for I don't actually think deserve that score. We gave soft ranks to help us decide what to discuss, and we made the final ranking based purely on discussion. By "0" I simply indicated I had no desire to consider it in the discussion for a multitude of reasons.
On September 23 2012 06:28 Samro225am wrote: Oh I guess it is time to get up a map thread! Very happy with getting my map included in top5. Congratulations to the other map makers! Hopefully we will see a high level of play and entertaining matches. Really looking forward to the show.
Ditto
To be honest though, I knew straight from the start that NMJ wouldn't like the center of my map lol. I had to have a bit of faith in the end that that wouldn't bog me down too much. Looking forward to the competition, maybe I'll get a map thread going before long
On September 23 2012 06:59 Fatam wrote: Maps are great for the most part, grats winners! I think seeing the judging is pretty interesting - they disagree on most maps. But maybe that is a good system, to have judges that have very different POVs. Are those scores out of 10? cuz almost no one got above 8 LOL
I think it's probably the best possible situation to have wide differences of opinion, so that we get to see a mix of maps in the top 5, which at a certain point has to be an arbitrary cutoff amongst many possible candidates with today's mapping turnout. I was also glad to see varying comments.
On September 23 2012 06:28 Samro225am wrote: Oh I guess it is time to get up a map thread! Very happy with getting my map included in top5. Congratulations to the other map makers! Hopefully we will see a high level of play and entertaining matches. Really looking forward to the show.
Ditto
To be honest though, I knew straight from the start that NMJ wouldn't like the center of my map lol. I had to have a bit of faith in the end that that wouldn't bog me down too much. Looking forward to the competition, maybe I'll get a map thread going before long
Your faith is justified! Your map was the only one that all three of us were strongly in support of from the start. I don't like that the map has even paths, but that alone isn't going to make an otherwise-good-map bad. Certainly just removing the line that divides the main path into two, cementing the over-arching theme of even-pathing alone would not improve the map.
I hate the even paths less than I hate the reaper path in the back of the main ._>
On September 23 2012 06:28 Samro225am wrote: Oh I guess it is time to get up a map thread! Very happy with getting my map included in top5. Congratulations to the other map makers! Hopefully we will see a high level of play and entertaining matches. Really looking forward to the show.
Ditto
To be honest though, I knew straight from the start that NMJ wouldn't like the center of my map lol. I had to have a bit of faith in the end that that wouldn't bog me down too much. Looking forward to the competition, maybe I'll get a map thread going before long
Your faith is justified! Your map was the only one that all three of us were strongly in support of from the start. I don't like that the map has even paths, but that alone isn't going to make an otherwise-good-map bad. Certainly just removing the line that divides the main path into two, cementing the over-arching theme of even-pathing alone would not improve the map.
I hate the even paths less than I hate the reaper path in the back of the main ._>
Haha
It's one of those things I don't mind fixing/changing, but I always feel this nagging voice telling me to show some love to the Reaper. I do suppose it would be more of an issue with Blink-Stalkers though, I'll definitely keep an eye on that.
side-note: What is the overriding opinion on making changes to a map before the tourney? I know that improving certain foibles of a map might make it better, but I imagine constantly changing the map under these circumstances might be a pain for all involved.
On September 23 2012 06:28 Samro225am wrote: Oh I guess it is time to get up a map thread! Very happy with getting my map included in top5. Congratulations to the other map makers! Hopefully we will see a high level of play and entertaining matches. Really looking forward to the show.
Ditto
To be honest though, I knew straight from the start that NMJ wouldn't like the center of my map lol. I had to have a bit of faith in the end that that wouldn't bog me down too much. Looking forward to the competition, maybe I'll get a map thread going before long
Your faith is justified! Your map was the only one that all three of us were strongly in support of from the start. I don't like that the map has even paths, but that alone isn't going to make an otherwise-good-map bad. Certainly just removing the line that divides the main path into two, cementing the over-arching theme of even-pathing alone would not improve the map.
I hate the even paths less than I hate the reaper path in the back of the main ._>
Haha
It's one of those things I don't mind fixing/changing, but I always feel this nagging voice telling me to show some love to the Reaper. I do suppose it would be more of an issue with Blink-Stalkers though, I'll definitely keep an eye on that.
side-note: What is the overriding opinion on making changes to a map before the tourney? I know that improving certain foibles of a map might make it better, but I imagine constantly changing the map under these circumstances might be a pain for all involved.
In this case the blink isn't likely to actually be a problem. Blinkable mains become a problem when the distance between the nat choke and the main is short on the outside (especially if it's shorter than the actual nat2main distance). Here harassing the nat and then moving out of the nat around the expo to blink in takes a fair amount of time and is easy to scout, so the defender has time to react.
The reaper path on the other hand is very far from the main ramp (the other possible reaper hop location). So the problem there is that e.g. in tvt if one t scouts or expects the other to reaper or just preemptively blocks the reaper path in back if reaper is a possibility (so either there's no scouting information or only gas and 1 marine are known) there's a 50-50 chance that he gets punished for doing the "right thing". Which is to say if the other t goes reaper and the nonreaper t has 3 marines at the back choke and the idiot going reaper hops up the edge next to the main choke he got lucky and can reap the benefit of being lucky (unhindered scouting and scv kills for a bit and an escape route). If however the guy going reaper thinks his opponent will block the back choke and deliberately picks the front choke and it turns out his opponent wasn't smart enough to cover the back choke with his 3 marines then instead the reaper user is punished for doing the "right thing". So your map makes this horrible scenario possible. Not a huge deal, but not a good thing to keep imo.
Personally I think it's nice to improve your map as you see fit to do so before a tournament, but I suppose you should confirm it with monitor since he's in charge of the tournament.
On September 23 2012 12:47 Nightmarjoo wrote: So your map makes this horrible scenario possible.
No really, BE HONEST lol.
I see though, I suppose a small tweak is in order. And if one is made, I'll be sure to update in the pertinent threads, as well as messaging Moni directly. Problem is, though, my map is about 23 MB, roughly 20 times the size of my next biggest map file, so e-mailing an update will take an age D:
If the reaper thing is the only thing you'd be changing, an update probably isn't worth it. I'd only edit it if you've found something objectively important or a series of minor things to edit.
On September 23 2012 13:04 Nightmarjoo wrote: Be honest? I don't understand.
NMJ doesn't understand humor D: Learning new things, I guess.
So, I guess I'll leave it as is? Not much else I really see as in-need-of-attention. Monitor doesn't like how big the corner expo is, but that's his problem.
Is there any possibility of seeing all the maps scored? It'd be useful to see what features the judges did/didn't like so that people who didn't submit could also learn from this
Really excited to see some tournament games on these maps!
EDIT: also Nightmarjoo, why do you dislike having an even number of paths through the middle?
On September 23 2012 13:54 RFDaemoniac wrote: Is there any possibility of seeing all the maps scored? It'd be useful to see what features the judges did/didn't like so that people who didn't submit could also learn from this
Really excited to see some tournament games on these maps!
EDIT: also Nightmarjoo, why do you dislike having an even number of paths through the middle?
Yes even paths are bad. Why? Unit AI. If you tell a group of units at some position such that half favour one path and half the other (assuming equal lengths of each path) and command them to move to some place on the other side of those paths your units will split up. This is bad and annoying. What's worse is beyond unit AI, even paths can be easily abused by the more mobile race for counters or forcing base trade scenarios. Neither of these are enjoyable or desireable and lead to poor gameplay. The more mobile race can already do these on maps that don't further lubricate the decision. Facilitating it to too great an extent can ruin racial balance potentially.
Ask any bw player what they think of bad unit ai. Endless stories of complaints about dragoons getting stuck, game-changing reaver shots dudding out, etc. If you're moving your army around and it doesn't go where you expect that's bad. This is not a matter of "1aing your army". You may need to retreat from some point on the map and because of this easily avoided pathing issue your army inexplicably splits up or units block each other trying to take the wrong side etc etc and your opponent gets free kills when you should've otherwise gotten away safely. That's not a matter of the player having made a mistake, that's a problem with the game and the map. And since we can't fix the game, we must fix the map.
Congrats to the winners! I figured Wightbane Gorge and Breaking Point were going to be in the top 5; they were also in my imaginary top 5 of maps I'd have picked.
How the hell is Rust in Peace a map of the month? Has the TL map making community really died that much? It's a 4 base turtle fest with TERRIBLE aesthetics...
On September 26 2012 05:12 ShowTheLights wrote: How the hell is Rust in Peace a map of the month? Has the TL map making community really died that much? It's a 4 base turtle fest with TERRIBLE aesthetics...
It's because it's a 3-player map. Novelty wins the day here, but it's not the end of the world for there to be some encouragement toward those who go out of their way to make 3p (and other unique style) maps; they're hard as hell to do!
Thought I'd throw my feedback out on the top 5 maps since I try to do it every time. I don't have time to actually get on and play the maps until the weekend so I'm strictly just going by what I notice from looking at the overview picture.
Rust In Peace: Back when MoTM was doing their 3p only month, this map looks almost exactly like the submission I was going to do if I had more time to make it look nicer. Main/Nat is fine. I think the 3rds might be a little too tight and I do wish they were a little farther away. Not sure I care too much about the rocks blocking the 4th from the 3rd. I know it's most likely to keep rush distance longer but I think I'd like it better if there just weren't any rocks. The aesthetics are very dull and boring but that shouldn't really matter that much because that can easily be fixed if gameplay is great. I'm not too sure if I like that there are 3 XWT, but I do think they are in great spots.
Bel'Shir Waterways: I really like the Main-Nat-3rd setup, although 1 problem I can see if tanks camping out by the third and shelling into the main. It's choked off enough that tanks would be able to shell up by the ramp down to the natural and are far enough back that they can easily trap you in your base, especially since there's only 1 giant funnel for you to get in/out.
I feel there needs to be at least 1 more base for each player on this map. Right now it seems you'll get 3 and 1/2 bases and that's pretty much the max you will ever get. Taking the 2 and 8 oclock bases seem waaay too close to your enemy especially if they end up taking the 1/2 base in the middle. The island bases being on the corners doesn't seem to help much because I don't think they will ever get used. Far away from everything and almost impossible to defend.
Wightbane Gorge: I really like this map and can tell you put a good amount of time into it. The main/nat is awesome. The little high ground next to the nat overlooking the rocks/third is awesome. The third infront of your main is perfect for an aggressive player. Do you have LoSB under the rocks by your natural so toss can't warp over them? (Doesn't effect much but just wondering)
XWT are in great spots, they provide vision to the shortest paths, yet don't give vision to every path. They make you feel a lot safer if you hold them, but can also easily be great for the aggressor as well to watch for flanks.
Seems a lot of people are complaining about the reaper path but I love it. It's just another way to attack into the main base. Be a perfect spot to ward units up or drop a pack of marines as well. Keep it there, will just make players have to put a building/overlord over on that side of their base so they don't get owned.
TPW Breaking Point: Main and Natural are awesome. Not sure I care about the 2 minerals by the natural rocks, think I'd rather see those gone and have a narrower choke. The 3rd seems a little weird just because it looks so choked in that spot. Maybe it's just me but the positioning of the minerals/gas just seems weird and like it shouldn't belong there. I love the corner bases (4ths) The harass opportunities and placement of it is great. I think you should move/get rid of the 1/2 bases in the middle because I don't think they serve much of a purpose besides if you're ahead, you get more ahead. I think I'd also like to see Rocks blocking 1/2 the ramps by the 3 and 9 oclock bases. Not blocking the whole ramp, but just 1/2, to make it a single wide FF ramp.
The XWT placement I'm on the edge about. I like that it doens't show the middle so you can rush through the tiny choked out middle to get by the vision, but I dislike that it shows everything else. I think those towers just give too big of an advantage for whoever holds them, which I feel is a problem.
Astro Haze: Probably the best map of the 5 in my opinion. Main/nat is great. Choice of thirds, plenty of harass opportunities. The major thing I don't like about this map is the placement of the 6 and 12 oclock bases. I'm unsure where I would put them to fix it but I think they are in a terrible spot. I like the 5th bases with the high ground behind it for some good harass and I love the low ground pods by the 3rds for harass as well. We need more stuff like this in maps because harass is...good! and fun to watch!
I actually like the rocks you placed out by the ramp when choosing your third but I don't think the 2 gold minerals are needed. Either make those rocks too, shrink the ramp or make no minerals/rocks there at all.
When all else fails, plop a XWT in the middle. Well done, it works well for this too.
Again, this is from looking at the overviews only so take this feedback how you want. Congrats to the winners and can't wait to watch some of the tournament VoDs.
It's because it's a 3-player map. Novelty wins the day here, but it's not the end of the world for there to be some encouragement toward those who go out of their way to make 3p (and other unique style) maps; they're hard as hell to do!
I agree that this is the reason. Ask yourself, if it was the same map but 4p or 2p, would it have gotten picked? I sort of doubt it. Not that it's bad, but it looks more like a rough draft than a finished product. There are a few like lefix's that I think were more deserving, but the judges had it tough having to go through 40-ish submissions so maybe we should give them a little slack. As Meatloaf might say if he was here: 4 out of 5 ain't bad.
I like Rust in Peace a lot because I believe the expo layout will lead to very dynamic gameplay. This effect likely is due to the fact that it's a three player map, but that the map was merely a solid/standard three player map was not the reason for why it was chosen. If you feel you can create a similar effect in a less standard/boring map, go for it, it might win next motm!
I tried out all the maps. There are some aesthetic issues with Bel'Shir Waterways. If the fog effects are not changed the players will likely complain. It is not spectator friendly either. It is too thick and green. Also in places it is hard to tell where a cliff ends and the low ground begins. It would be nice if these things could be fixed before the tournament. Best food forward and everything.
Also there is a audio file that plays when you start a game on Breaking Point. I recognize it from Starjeweled. I'm not sure why that is there.
Sorry to bother you but im confused to the check in time for this tourney (29th.) On the Plahem, it says 4pm GMT, yet on the teamliquid thread it says 1pm GMT. Can you clarify? I live in EST if that's easier thanks.
Rating a map 0 because you don't consider it is such a pile of fail though lol. It takes so much away from the point of giving us access to that doc. Thanks for it anyway tho!
Those ratings were to facilitate discussion, not to enlighten you guys. Either way a rating is an arbitrary number which in and of itself does little to help mappers.
I am very sorry to announce that the tournament is rescheduled for next weekend. I messed up doing the tournament set-up and players couldn't see the bracket. A new tournament link will be up by the end of the day. Thanks and sorry again to everybody who was involved!
The new tournament page is up, with help from Unfortunate (the lead playhem admin). It will held on October 6th- more info can be found by clicking the link!
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/c/c3/Motm.png)
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