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On August 15 2012 05:23 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:38 Diamond wrote:On August 14 2012 10:01 Sumadin wrote:
Okay so let me level with you for a second. You can take what i state below as almost confirmed facts, point is i won't argue this very much. I talk to Blizzard about maps quite often and I can assure you almost all your "confirmed facts" are not in fact true or have any basis to them. Sorry Could you go into more details with what you know then? I didn't see depots in the battle reports. It was hard to judge if there was any changes to how propes makes pylons. And from the looks of the map, none of the stuff you should have been talking about seems to have made an impact.
You seem to have a heavy misconception of what a battle report is supposed to be. Like Diamond said, it's to show off new units and abilities, not be a display of professional skill. It'd be silly to release a battle report that ends in the first few minutes because of something like a ramp block (even though the strategy is only really effective vs. Zerg, but the point stands even in the vs. Zerg battle reports).
Rather, it's more of a Day[9] Funday Monday setting, where the restrictions are "you must showcase these units/abilities before killing your opponent".
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On August 15 2012 05:57 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 05:23 Sumadin wrote:On August 14 2012 12:38 Diamond wrote:On August 14 2012 10:01 Sumadin wrote:
Okay so let me level with you for a second. You can take what i state below as almost confirmed facts, point is i won't argue this very much. I talk to Blizzard about maps quite often and I can assure you almost all your "confirmed facts" are not in fact true or have any basis to them. Sorry Could you go into more details with what you know then? I didn't see depots in the battle reports. It was hard to judge if there was any changes to how propes makes pylons. And from the looks of the map, none of the stuff you should have been talking about seems to have made an impact. You seem to have a heavy misconception of what a battle report is supposed to be. Like Diamond said, it's to show off new units and abilities, not be a display of professional skill. It'd be silly to release a battle report that ends in the first few minutes because of something like a ramp block (even though the strategy is only really effective vs. Zerg, but the point stands even in the vs. Zerg battle reports). Rather, it's more of a Day[9] Funday Monday setting, where the restrictions are "you must showcase these units/abilities before killing your opponent".
That i know. But i just wanted to get more details. It is just really easy for diamond to come and say "You're wrong, Blizzard told me so". Now i do know that he is in contact with Blizard, but apparantly he is embargoed to go in detail with what Blizzard told him. Is depots coming, does probe warpin get a cooldown? Or do they just acknowledge that tournements thinks it is imbalanced to have the block?
If he is going to bring on that argument he should go in more details, or just be quiet about it. I can't use "You're wrong" to anything.
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On August 15 2012 06:55 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 05:57 iamcaustic wrote:On August 15 2012 05:23 Sumadin wrote:On August 14 2012 12:38 Diamond wrote:On August 14 2012 10:01 Sumadin wrote:
Okay so let me level with you for a second. You can take what i state below as almost confirmed facts, point is i won't argue this very much. I talk to Blizzard about maps quite often and I can assure you almost all your "confirmed facts" are not in fact true or have any basis to them. Sorry Could you go into more details with what you know then? I didn't see depots in the battle reports. It was hard to judge if there was any changes to how propes makes pylons. And from the looks of the map, none of the stuff you should have been talking about seems to have made an impact. You seem to have a heavy misconception of what a battle report is supposed to be. Like Diamond said, it's to show off new units and abilities, not be a display of professional skill. It'd be silly to release a battle report that ends in the first few minutes because of something like a ramp block (even though the strategy is only really effective vs. Zerg, but the point stands even in the vs. Zerg battle reports). Rather, it's more of a Day[9] Funday Monday setting, where the restrictions are "you must showcase these units/abilities before killing your opponent". That i know. But i just wanted to get more details. It is just really easy for diamond to come and say "You're wrong, Blizzard told me so". Now i do know that he is in contact with Blizard, but apparantly he is embargoed to go in detail with what Blizzard told him. Is depots coming, does probe warpin get a cooldown? Or do they just acknowledge that tournements thinks it is imbalanced to have the block? If he is going to bring on that argument he should go in more details, or just be quiet about it. I can't use "You're wrong" to anything.
I actually thought it was rather nice of Diamond to let you know you're mistaken, despite having to be tight-lipped about details. I don't see it as being much different than when Blizzard employees do some sort of interview or something and answer questions about topics such as HotS campaign, but give very shallow answers with a "I can't go into much more detail at this time" disclaimer.
As for making use of "you're wrong", while you can't use it to reach a conclusion regarding Blizzard's actual opinion/stance, you can make use of it to scratch your assumptions out of the list of possibilities (which, frankly, would put you on track better than where you were, stating those misconceptions as "basically facts", to paraphrase you).
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On August 15 2012 03:03 iamcaustic wrote:
When the bunkers complete, it's pretty well a free win. I'm not sure what race you play or at what level, but this isn't exactly revolutionary information. It puts you in a very, very good spot yes, just as dts getting into your base when you have no detection, or cloaked banshees, or tunneling roaches hitting before detection, or a forcefield on your ramp with a warp prism in your main, or a creep tumour being planted in your natural from a queen+hatch strat.
However, that doesn't mean there is no way to stop it from getting to that point.
Blizzard has had multiple precedents where they've accepted something as being imbalanced if it reaches that stage (e.g. late game TvP if the Terran does no mid-game damage and the Protoss played passive macro to get their death ball), but have seen potential actions that can be taken to prevent the game from reaching that stage in the first place. In TvP, it's the mid-game aggression of the Terran that can cripple a Protoss before their death ball takes off, nullifying the Protoss advantage. With ramp block, it's patrolling a drone or two down at the base of the ramp; something which isn't all that big a deal when there's nothing but ladder points on the line, but even Blizzard doesn't seem to find that reasonable anymore for tournament-level play where there are much higher stakes. Great, so we agree that it can be stopped from getting to this point.
And what you are effectively saying is 'There shouldn't be situations in this game where a player can have achieved a winning advantage.'
If a ramp block gets up, you're in deep shit, so stop it from getting that far, just as when a creep tumour gets down in your natural you're in deep shit, or when you leave your wall open and lings run into your main, you're in deep shit, so stop it from getting that far, it's quite easy.
Assuming the position that one should balance an e-sports focused game for its highest level of play, the ramp block issue should be addressed in some way. Blizzard's been historically slow at catching up to the community on these things (see: Blizzard ladder map pool, implementation of neutral depots on tournament maps, chat rooms, still waiting on clan support but it's coming soon™, etc.), but they do get around to it eventually. Because the community are frankly a group of drooling bandwagoning mongoloids and Blizzard actually has a plethora on statistics on the matter and the community just parrots each other without ever having seen a single statistic on the matter.
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Well the facts part wasn't the smartest choice of words i will give you that but i will stand by most of the statements. It is highly unlikely that Blizzard will implement the depots on ladder. They have shown to be extremely resistant about breaking the "ladder rules" for their maps and even in the WCS they uphold most of them except for the depots.
To go into details what i mean by the "ladder rules". It's their traditional stance on how maps on ladder should be. No altered expansions, No alternative blocking(metropolis island creep tumors) and such.
They faced a shitstorm through when Blizzcon didn't have depots which is probably why they let loose for the WCS versions only. In the past noone considered their ladder pool good(Today i would say it is too good), so i really don't think they wanted to take the battle about there. Even if their stats would have shown that the block had a winrate well within what is acceptable for other cheeses, I don't think they wanted to go through that again and potentially causing futher harm to the legitimity to their maps. They still maintained all of the other ladder map rules.
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On August 15 2012 09:10 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:03 iamcaustic wrote:
When the bunkers complete, it's pretty well a free win. I'm not sure what race you play or at what level, but this isn't exactly revolutionary information. It puts you in a very, very good spot yes, just as dts getting into your base when you have no detection, or cloaked banshees, or tunneling roaches hitting before detection, or a forcefield on your ramp with a warp prism in your main, or a creep tumour being planted in your natural from a queen+hatch strat. However, that doesn't mean there is no way to stop it from getting to that point. Show nested quote +Blizzard has had multiple precedents where they've accepted something as being imbalanced if it reaches that stage (e.g. late game TvP if the Terran does no mid-game damage and the Protoss played passive macro to get their death ball), but have seen potential actions that can be taken to prevent the game from reaching that stage in the first place. In TvP, it's the mid-game aggression of the Terran that can cripple a Protoss before their death ball takes off, nullifying the Protoss advantage. With ramp block, it's patrolling a drone or two down at the base of the ramp; something which isn't all that big a deal when there's nothing but ladder points on the line, but even Blizzard doesn't seem to find that reasonable anymore for tournament-level play where there are much higher stakes. Great, so we agree that it can be stopped from getting to this point. And what you are effectively saying is 'There shouldn't be situations in this game where a player can have achieved a winning advantage.' If a ramp block gets up, you're in deep shit, so stop it from getting that far, just as when a creep tumour gets down in your natural you're in deep shit, or when you leave your wall open and lings run into your main, you're in deep shit, so stop it from getting that far, it's quite easy.
From a balance standpoint, if you don't understand the difference between:
a. decent scouting and/or establishing detection in a timely manner; and
b. consistently having to deal with an early-game income disadvantage just to avoid auto-loss
Then there's really nothing left for us to discuss. I'm very curious as to your actual skill level and race in SC2 for you to really not understand how even the "solution" is detrimental, even if it is better than auto-loss.
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 15 2012 09:10 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +Assuming the position that one should balance an e-sports focused game for its highest level of play, the ramp block issue should be addressed in some way. Blizzard's been historically slow at catching up to the community on these things (see: Blizzard ladder map pool, implementation of neutral depots on tournament maps, chat rooms, still waiting on clan support but it's coming soon™, etc.), but they do get around to it eventually. Because the community are frankly a group of drooling bandwagoning mongoloids and Blizzard actually has a plethora on statistics on the matter and the community just parrots each other without ever having seen a single statistic on the matter.
Your general disdain for the community and everything it has accomplished isn't scoring you any points on the credibility board. Diamond has already come out in this thread stating he's been in contact with Blizzard on the map-making front (you know, because he's actually a relevant community member who's done a lot of good work, and who's map-making team has 2 maps featured on Blizzard's ladder), and that the general opinions you guys have been stating as Blizzard's official position are inaccurate.
Yes, Blizzard has lots of data. No, that does not mean ramp block is perfectly fine. Even with Blizzard having all this data, neutral depots are on their WCS maps. Your opinionated rationalization for why Blizzard has done this has already been debunked as being wrong by a credible source with insider information.
On August 15 2012 09:26 Sumadin wrote:
Well the facts part wasn't the smartest choice of words i will give you that but i will stand by most of the statements. It is highly unlikely that Blizzard will implement the depots on ladder. They have shown to be extremely resistant about breaking the "ladder rules" for their maps and even in the WCS they uphold most of them except for the depots.
To go into details what i mean by the "ladder rules". It's their traditional stance on how maps on ladder should be. No altered expansions, No alternative blocking(metropolis island creep tumors) and such.
They faced a shitstorm through when Blizzcon didn't have depots which is probably why they let loose for the WCS versions only. In the past noone considered their ladder pool good(Today i would say it is too good), so i really don't think they wanted to take the battle about there. Even if their stats would have shown that the block had a winrate well within what is acceptable for other cheeses, I don't think they wanted to go through that again and potentially causing futher harm to the legitimity to their maps. They still maintained all of the other ladder map rules.
As I've already said, I also agree that it is very unlikely that Blizzard would implement neutral depots on the ladder, for the reasons expressed in the OP.
Regarding "ladder map rules" being maintained in WCS maps, I'd like to note that WCS maps also do not:
1. have rich mineral fields
2. have all spawns enabled on all maps (e.g. WCS Antiga Shipyard is cross-position only, despite being all 4 spawns on ladder)
It's more than just the ramp block. It's about having a balanced map pool for tournaments, where balance really matters.
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On August 15 2012 10:13 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 09:10 SiskosGoatee wrote:On August 15 2012 03:03 iamcaustic wrote:
When the bunkers complete, it's pretty well a free win. I'm not sure what race you play or at what level, but this isn't exactly revolutionary information. It puts you in a very, very good spot yes, just as dts getting into your base when you have no detection, or cloaked banshees, or tunneling roaches hitting before detection, or a forcefield on your ramp with a warp prism in your main, or a creep tumour being planted in your natural from a queen+hatch strat. However, that doesn't mean there is no way to stop it from getting to that point. Blizzard has had multiple precedents where they've accepted something as being imbalanced if it reaches that stage (e.g. late game TvP if the Terran does no mid-game damage and the Protoss played passive macro to get their death ball), but have seen potential actions that can be taken to prevent the game from reaching that stage in the first place. In TvP, it's the mid-game aggression of the Terran that can cripple a Protoss before their death ball takes off, nullifying the Protoss advantage. With ramp block, it's patrolling a drone or two down at the base of the ramp; something which isn't all that big a deal when there's nothing but ladder points on the line, but even Blizzard doesn't seem to find that reasonable anymore for tournament-level play where there are much higher stakes. Great, so we agree that it can be stopped from getting to this point. And what you are effectively saying is 'There shouldn't be situations in this game where a player can have achieved a winning advantage.' If a ramp block gets up, you're in deep shit, so stop it from getting that far, just as when a creep tumour gets down in your natural you're in deep shit, or when you leave your wall open and lings run into your main, you're in deep shit, so stop it from getting that far, it's quite easy. From a balance standpoint, if you don't understand the difference between: a. decent scouting and/or establishing detection in a timely manner; and b. consistently having to deal with an early-game income disadvantage just to avoid auto-loss I don't, scouting represents a form of economy loss, in PvZ you have to scout at 9, the only matchup where this is mandatory, and again on some maps at 13, you have to send two scouts on a lot of 4 player maps just to be safe against a possible 7pool in PvZ, it's only fair that Z has to patrol a drone in return honestly.
Then there's really nothing left for us to discuss. I'm very curious as to your actual skill level and race in SC2 for you to really not understand how even the "solution" is detrimental, even if it is better than auto-loss. As I said, I'm master league with all three races. David Kim is high master / GM with all three races and he agrees with me here, not with you, so please.
It isn't.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/960418/1/Runkk/, character code 195, you're free to add me to confirm.
Also, you know that for instance IronManSC is gold league right? It doesn't mean as much as you may think.
Your general disdain for the community and everything it has accomplished isn't scoring you any points on the credibility board.
What is this even supposed to say?
Diamond has already come out in this thread stating he's been in contact with Blizzard on the map-making front (you know, because he's actually a relevant community member who's done a lot of good work, and who's map-making team has 2 maps featured on Blizzard's ladder), and that the general opinions you guys have been stating as Blizzard's official position are inaccurate. Diamond has said no such things, he's made extremely cryptic statements and said himself he cannot go into detail. I have also at no point said anything was a fact, you're confusing me with someone else.
Your opinionated rationalization for why Blizzard has done this has already been debunked as being wrong by a credible source with insider information. He debunked nothing, he made an extremely cryptic and vague statement which can mean anything.
So again, I will ask you this one question you endlessly seem to avoid. You claimed this strategy was a "free win", I can trust we agree that free win means there is nothing that can be done about it?
Do you or do you not hold it plausible that Blizzard would continue to let strategies exist which are impossible to stop and do so for 2 years when a completely simple solution of altering the footprints of ramps exist?
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On August 15 2012 10:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:13 iamcaustic wrote:On August 15 2012 09:10 SiskosGoatee wrote:On August 15 2012 03:03 iamcaustic wrote:
When the bunkers complete, it's pretty well a free win. I'm not sure what race you play or at what level, but this isn't exactly revolutionary information. It puts you in a very, very good spot yes, just as dts getting into your base when you have no detection, or cloaked banshees, or tunneling roaches hitting before detection, or a forcefield on your ramp with a warp prism in your main, or a creep tumour being planted in your natural from a queen+hatch strat. However, that doesn't mean there is no way to stop it from getting to that point. Blizzard has had multiple precedents where they've accepted something as being imbalanced if it reaches that stage (e.g. late game TvP if the Terran does no mid-game damage and the Protoss played passive macro to get their death ball), but have seen potential actions that can be taken to prevent the game from reaching that stage in the first place. In TvP, it's the mid-game aggression of the Terran that can cripple a Protoss before their death ball takes off, nullifying the Protoss advantage. With ramp block, it's patrolling a drone or two down at the base of the ramp; something which isn't all that big a deal when there's nothing but ladder points on the line, but even Blizzard doesn't seem to find that reasonable anymore for tournament-level play where there are much higher stakes. Great, so we agree that it can be stopped from getting to this point. And what you are effectively saying is 'There shouldn't be situations in this game where a player can have achieved a winning advantage.' If a ramp block gets up, you're in deep shit, so stop it from getting that far, just as when a creep tumour gets down in your natural you're in deep shit, or when you leave your wall open and lings run into your main, you're in deep shit, so stop it from getting that far, it's quite easy. From a balance standpoint, if you don't understand the difference between: a. decent scouting and/or establishing detection in a timely manner; and b. consistently having to deal with an early-game income disadvantage just to avoid auto-loss I don't, scouting represents a form of economy loss, in PvZ you have to scout at 9, the only matchup where this is mandatory, and again on some maps at 13, you have to send two scouts on a lot of 4 player maps just to be safe against a possible 7pool in PvZ, it's only fair that Z has to patrol a drone in return honestly.
Every race needs to scout. That's equivalent economic loss. Sending more than one worker scout is a personal choice, not a necessity. You're trading economy for potentially better/faster scouting intel than your opponent. The day I see Protoss players send 2 probes every time on maps like Whirlwind in PvZ is the day I might consider otherwise.
Zerg incurs an extra penalty by being forced to use an additional worker to patrol the ramp. That's if a Terran decides to play nice and not bring 3 workers to quick snipe the drone and throw down those bunkers before additional drones from the mineral line can have a chance to prevent it. Let's try to keep it simple though and just focus on the economic disadvantage.
On August 15 2012 10:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +Then there's really nothing left for us to discuss. I'm very curious as to your actual skill level and race in SC2 for you to really not understand how even the "solution" is detrimental, even if it is better than auto-loss. As I said, I'm master league with all three races. David Kim is high master / GM with all three races and he agrees with me here, not with you, so please. It isn't. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/960418/1/Runkk/, character code 195, you're free to add me to confirm. Also, you know that for instance IronManSC is gold league right? It doesn't mean as much as you may think.
Thank goodness. Regarding IronMan, though, I feel fairly confident that it is not his opinion alone that has convinced everyone (i.e. tournament organizers, the professional mapmaking teams, and Blizzard) that neutral depots -- or rather, the concept of preventing ramp block -- are a must in tournament-quality maps. Can you even say he was involved in raising the issue in the first place?
IronMan being gold league doesn't mean much here because he is irrelevant in this argument.
On August 15 2012 10:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +
Your general disdain for the community and everything it has accomplished isn't scoring you any points on the credibility board.
What is this even supposed to say?
Exactly what is written. How do you expect myself or anyone to take you seriously when all you do is trash talk the community? As far as you're concerned, we all may as well be a bunch of brainless chimpanzees, and you know better than all the professionals in the industry.
On August 15 2012 10:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +Diamond has already come out in this thread stating he's been in contact with Blizzard on the map-making front (you know, because he's actually a relevant community member who's done a lot of good work, and who's map-making team has 2 maps featured on Blizzard's ladder), and that the general opinions you guys have been stating as Blizzard's official position are inaccurate. Diamond has said no such things, he's made extremely cryptic statements and said himself he cannot go into detail. I have also at no point said anything was a fact, you're confusing me with someone else.
What's cryptic about "you're wrong"? He just can't go into detail to explain what's correct regarding Blizzard's stances and actions toward these issues.
On August 15 2012 10:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +Your opinionated rationalization for why Blizzard has done this has already been debunked as being wrong by a credible source with insider information. He debunked nothing, he made an extremely cryptic and vague statement which can mean anything.
Read the above.
On August 15 2012 10:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
So again, I will ask you this one question you endlessly seem to avoid. You claimed this strategy was a "free win", I can trust we agree that free win means there is nothing that can be done about it?
Do you or do you not hold it plausible that Blizzard would continue to let strategies exist which are impossible to stop and do so for 2 years when a completely simple solution of altering the footprints of ramps exist?
I avoid this because it's nothing more than a deliberate and gross misrepresentation of my statements and claims. I've already made my statements and gone into detail explaining them in this thread. Since you want an answer so badly, I'm going to have to explain why this question is flawed.
Regarding free win: I've already said that it's a free win (nothing can be done about it) if the block gets placed down. In other words, the strategy can be stopped before it begins, but once it starts it's game over for the Zerg (and as a disclaimer: unless the opponent makes a colossal blunder, in which case anything can happen).
Regarding Blizzard not addressing the issue on ladder maps: We just went over discussing the whole drone patrol thing. I've also already discussed how Blizzard has allowed imbalanced concepts to remain in the game, because there are potentially ways to prevent them before they start, even if they're too strong once begun. In particular, I referenced Blizzard's stance on TvP, with Terran's mid-game aggression (prevention) vs. Protoss late game composition (too strong if unhindered]). The strategy of ramp blocking itself is still excessively strong, and is removed from tournaments because it's far too easy to execute for the time it hits and the damage it does. At least in things like TvP, the Protoss still has to perform very well and prevent being dealt significant damage during the mid-game. There is effort and skill required from both sides, and thus it's deemed acceptable, even if not ideal (we see Blizzard addressing this design in HotS by making mech vs. Protoss viable).
At its very core, this question of yours is flawed because it misrepresents the issue as being equivalent to something like 5-rax reaper.
EDIT: I'd also like to note that Blizzard already nerfed ramp block once before by altering the ramp pathing. This was done in patch 1.2.0, released January 10th, 2011 (i.e. less than 2 years ago). The change prevented ramp blocking by two 2x2 structures (such as pylons). Now, it requires three. The general consensus on the professional level is that this wasn't enough of a nerf. However, it seems like the folks at ESV prefer a solution along the lines of neutral lowered depot (either it, or a solution which mimics the same kind of functionality), as opposed to a change to the ramp pathing, as I'm proposing and as Blizzard has done in the past.
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Every race needs to scout. That's equivalent economic loss.
Find me a single Zerg that scouts at 9 in ZvP, it's just not done, while scouting at 9 in PvZ is a lot more common, also, observe how many probes MC actually has to send out in an average PvZ to check for a lot of things. Scouting earlier and more is more economy loss. That Z has to patrol a drone in return is only fair.
Sending more than one worker scout is a personal choice, not a necessity. No, it's a necessity to not die to a 7pool on say Tal'Darim Altar or basically every 4 player map, if you scout him last and he scouts you first with an overlord, you will find out he's 7pooling, by lings in your base. If you don't scout again at 13 if you didn't find him at the first try, you just accept that you will die to a 7pool if you find him last.
You're trading economy for potentially better/faster scouting intel than your opponent. The day I see Protoss players send 2 probes every time on maps like Whirlwind in PvZ is the day I might consider otherwise. A lot do, if you don't find him at your first try you have to send a probe again at 13 to be absolutely safe. There's simply no way to hold a 7pool if you scouted him last and he knows where you are, which he will, because he will send his overlord at one close location, and then of course check the other close location first with his lings.
Zerg incurs an extra penalty by being forced to use an additional worker to patrol the ramp. That's if a Terran decides to play nice and not bring 3 workers to quick snipe the drone and throw down those bunkers before additional drones from the mineral line can have a chance to prevent it. Let's try to keep it simple though and just focus on the economic disadvantage. You have admitted in the past that you do not play Zerg, and it shows, the worker you use to block the ramp is the same worker you use to scout when it gets back in a lot of cases, as soon as you are in his base and you know he's 2raxing you can send that worker back immediately and have it check around your natural for bunkers and then patrol the ramp. Apart from that this worker isn't sent at 10.
On August 15 2012 10:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Thank goodness. Thank godness what? I play all three races at master league level, if we're going to do this by authority as you were instilling on just yet I win, simple as that. I am higher ranked, and certainly higher ranked with all three races, than the majority of mapmakers here.
But this isn't a contest of authority, I'm sure you can find someone ranked higher than I who disgrees with me, and someone even higher ranked who does agree with me.
Regarding IronMan, though, I feel fairly confident that it is not his opinion alone that has convinced everyone (i.e. tournament organizers, the professional mapmaking teams, and Blizzard) that neutral depots -- or rather, the concept of preventing ramp block -- are a must in tournament-quality maps. Can you even say he was involved in raising the issue in the first place? I never said so, you however seem to think that high ladder rankings are a necessity for quality map design. (though to be frank, I've yet to see a truly memorable game on Ohana).
On August 15 2012 10:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Exactly what is written. How do you expect myself or anyone to take you seriously when all you do is trash talk the community? As far as you're concerned, we all may as well be a bunch of brainless chimpanzees, and you know better than all the professionals in the industry. You seriously take 'the community' serious?
This 'entity' flip flops every week, has a different opinion on stuff every week, first they idolize IdrA, then they thrash him after being BM, same with iNcontrol, then they say forcefields are completely overpowered, then they suddenly drop the issue and go focus on fungal while neither spell was changed in the meanwhile, then they say that infestor/broodlord is too strong and that snipe should be buffed because it's not strong enough, then they all cry about snipe being too strong while it wasn't buffed in that timeframe.
The community says a lot of things and often changes its opinion. What you're doing has a name. I'm sorry, but I can'tt ake you seriously if you believe something is true just because the majority of people believe it. (see crossfire)
On August 15 2012 10:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +Diamond has already come out in this thread stating he's been in contact with Blizzard on the map-making front (you know, because he's actually a relevant community member who's done a lot of good work, and who's map-making team has 2 maps featured on Blizzard's ladder), and that the general opinions you guys have been stating as Blizzard's official position are inaccurate. Diamond has said no such things, he's made extremely cryptic statements and said himself he cannot go into detail. I have also at no point said anything was a fact, you're confusing me with someone else.
What's cryptic about "you're wrong"? He just can't go into detail to explain what's correct regarding Blizzard's stances and actions toward these issues.[/quote]He said that to another person, about some things which I have never argued, never to me. I'm not talking about that, again, you may be confusing me with someone else, I never argued those 'facts', my statements are simple:
- There is no statistic proof whatsoever cited ever that ramp blocks are an imbalanced strategy.
- Playing all three races at a master league level myself, my personal experience is not that it is imbalanced, I can deal with it, and I've been defeated many times attempting it.
- The fact that Blizzard has not patched this strategy out of the ladder or nerfed it is a very strong indication of that it does not constitute an imbalance.
That's all I have claimed, I never claimed any of such other facts.
I avoid this because it's nothing more than a deliberate and gross misrepresentation of my statements and claims. I've already made my statements and gone into detail explaining them in this thread. Since you want an answer so badly, I'm going to have to explain why this question is flawed.
Regarding free win: I've already said that it's a free win (nothing can be done about it) if the block gets placed down. In other words, the strategy can be stopped before it begins, but once it starts it's game over for the Zerg (and as a disclaimer: unless the opponent makes a colossal blunder, in which case anything can happen).
Regarding Blizzard not addressing the issue on ladder maps: We just went over discussing the whole drone patrol thing. I've also already discussed how Blizzard has allowed imbalanced concepts to remain in the game, because there are potentially ways to prevent them before they start, even if they're too strong once begun. In particular, I referenced Blizzard's stance on TvP, with Terran's mid-game aggression (prevention) vs. Protoss late game composition (too strong if unhindered]). The strategy of ramp blocking itself is still excessively strong, and is removed from tournaments because it's far too easy to execute for the time it hits and the damage it does. At least in things like TvP, the Protoss still has to perform very well and prevent being dealt significant damage during the mid-game. There is effort and skill required from both sides, and thus it's deemed acceptable, even if not ideal (we see Blizzard addressing this design in HotS by making mech vs. Protoss viable).
At its very core, this question of yours is flawed because it misrepresents the issue as being equivalent to something like 5-rax reaper.
Okay, then you simply think something is a problem that I don't think is a problem. You think that if a strategy gets beyond a certain point if you had ample means to stop it from getting to that point then that is bad. I don't see what is so bad about that. But whatever. If I go nexus first and let a bunker get up in range of my nexus with a reaper into it, then I'm in deep shit, I could've stopped that. If I go 1 rax FE but he manages to plant a pylon behind my CC outside of my vision and I failed to notice then I basically die to any pressure he might throw at me, once the pressure starts and he starts to warp in the game is pretty much over for me, but I could've stopped that by following the scouting probe around or checking later. Same situation in my opinion.
Apart from that, Zerg is in an awful position if two bunkers get up in range of his hatch, ramp block or no ramp block
EDIT: I'd also like to note that Blizzard already nerfed ramp block once before by altering the ramp pathing. This was done in patch 1.2.0, released January 10th, 2011 (i.e. less than 2 years ago). The change prevented ramp blocking by two 2x2 structures (such as pylons). Now, it requires three. The general consensus on the professional level is that this wasn't enough of a nerf. However, it seems like the folks at ESV prefer a solution along the lines of neutral lowered depot (either it, or a solution which mimics the same kind of functionality), as opposed to a change to the ramp pathing, as I'm proposing and as Blizzard has done in the past. I said that a thousand times already and I cited that asn argument that they are willing to change the footprint of ramps if they consider them imbalanced. They apparently consider 2 pylons needed imbalanced, but three balanced, pretty simple.
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EDIT: I guess I should let you know before you start reading this behemoth, I have a p.s. at the bottom of this post. Might be worth reading first to possibly save you some time, unless you really want to respond anyway. In that case, feel free. 
On August 15 2012 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Find me a single Zerg that scouts at 9 in ZvP, it's just not done, while scouting at 9 in PvZ is a lot more common, also, observe how many probes MC actually has to send out in an average PvZ to check for a lot of things. Scouting earlier and more is more economy loss. That Z has to patrol a drone in return is only fair.
I just went and checked MC's most recent matches vs. DRG and Leenock. In all six professional level PvZs, MC did not send out more than the 9 probe to scout in the early game. So, my observations would be 1 probe, and all of his openings followed a similar trend (standard FFE), leading me to believe this is his standard opening. In that regard, a patrolling drone would be, in fact, an additional economic hit for the Zerg.
You're gonna have to put in some effort with some VOD examples to convince me otherwise on that one.
On August 15 2012 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
No, it's a necessity to not die to a 7pool on say Tal'Darim Altar or basically every 4 player map, if you scout him last and he scouts you first with an overlord, you will find out he's 7pooling, by lings in your base. If you don't scout again at 13 if you didn't find him at the first try, you just accept that you will die to a 7pool if you find him last.
Tal'Darim Altar is no longer considered a tournament-quality map, as many flaws have been revealed in its design, and consequently has been phased out of most professional tournaments. That said, this fact doesn't affect 7-pool necessarily, so let's address that too.
Odds of Zerg scouting you first, while you scout Zerg last, is relatively low. Somewhere around 10% chance (i.e. 1 in 10 games), assuming both an overlord and drone are sent out to scout. That drops to ~7% (1 in 15 games) chance if only one Zerg scouting unit is sent. Then we have to consider the odds of a Zerg going 7 pool when they scout you first and you scout them last. Needless to say, that number is even lower.
Next to consider is that Zerg scouting you first (and you don't scout Zerg at the first scouted spawn) is a trigger. That's a warning which says "Oh shit, Zerg has the potential to 7 pool me". Even if the Zerg isn't 7 pooling, you have an early warning sign that the possibility exists and can take additional measures, such as sending a second probe, without having to expend that effort every game.
For ramp block, the warning trigger is "Oh shit my ramp is getting blocked". There's nothing beforehand which can warn a Zerg to be more cautious, requiring caution in every single game regardless whether the Zerg scouted or not until they feel confident they can deny a potential ramp block without taking game-ending damage.
On August 15 2012 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
A lot do, if you don't find him at your first try you have to send a probe again at 13 to be absolutely safe. There's simply no way to hold a 7pool if you scouted him last and he knows where you are, which he will, because he will send his overlord at one close location, and then of course check the other close location first with his lings.
Judging from your wording here, it seems like you do make use of that trigger. Also want to note that 2-player maps negate this requirement of the Protoss, yet Zerg still would be required to drone patrol regardless of map. In conclusion, this isn't an equivalent scenario.
On August 15 2012 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
You have admitted in the past that you do not play Zerg, and it shows, the worker you use to block the ramp is the same worker you use to scout when it gets back in a lot of cases, as soon as you are in his base and you know he's 2raxing you can send that worker back immediately and have it check around your natural for bunkers and then patrol the ramp. Apart from that this worker isn't sent at 10.
No, I don't play Zerg outside of customs, but I do play against them. You're basically trying to tell me that I don't understand a TvZ strategy.
When I bunker ramp block, I do it hard. Proxy double-11 rax, double bunker at the ramp before natural hatchery completes. Generally only do it on 2-player maps, where blind proxy is strongest. Unless as a Zerg you run straight back home after poking up my ramp and seeing no barracks as part of a wall (why would you do this?), that scouting drone isn't getting back in time. By the time you skirt the edges of my base and check for a Maka rax to ensure there aren't any metagame shenanigans going on and get back, there are bunkers on your ramp. You have to pull additional drone(s) from your main before then. A player that only overlord scouts on 2-player maps (fairly common on ladder) is especially screwed.
On August 15 2012 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Thank godness what? I play all three races at master league level, if we're going to do this by authority as you were instilling on just yet I win, simple as that. I am higher ranked, and certainly higher ranked with all three races, than the majority of mapmakers here.
But this isn't a contest of authority, I'm sure you can find someone ranked higher than I who disgrees with me, and someone even higher ranked who does agree with me.
Thank goodness that wasn't your account. It's not an appeal to authority more than a desire to at least maintain a minimum threshold of competency. I tend to aim for a threshold of ~top 20%, since that lines up well with Blizzard's leagues (easy verification) and retains a large enough range of skill so as to not lose smart players that may not be mechanically up to par. Anything other than that, and I'm more likely to just drop the argument and move on (though I have listened to some Platinums from time to time if they say smart things). Just a personal policy to keep my sanity.
In this case, I can disagree with you but at least have peace of mind knowing you have a solid understanding of general concepts.
On August 15 2012 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I never said so, you however seem to think that high ladder rankings are a necessity for quality map design. (though to be frank, I've yet to see a truly memorable game on Ohana).
This assumption of my belief is blatantly incorrect, but having good ladder ranking can definitely help.
On August 15 2012 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
You seriously take 'the community' serious?
This 'entity' flip flops every week, has a different opinion on stuff every week, first they idolize IdrA, then they thrash him after being BM, same with iNcontrol, then they say forcefields are completely overpowered, then they suddenly drop the issue and go focus on fungal while neither spell was changed in the meanwhile, then they say that infestor/broodlord is too strong and that snipe should be buffed because it's not strong enough, then they all cry about snipe being too strong while it wasn't buffed in that timeframe.
The community says a lot of things and often changes its opinion. What you're doing has a name. I'm sorry, but I can'tt ake you seriously if you believe something is true just because the majority of people believe it. (see crossfire)
Reading this, what you label "the community" and what I label "the community" are clearly very different things, so allow me to clarify what I'm talking about.
When I say "the community", I am talking about the people that actually, you know, do stuff. They're map-makers, journalists, tournament organizers both large and small, barcraft organizers, pro and semi-pro players, etc. I am not talking about r/starcraft or even the TL forums -- though I do include everyone who helps run them. People who only play the game casually and/or watch pro games I call amateurs and spectators, respectively. Out of those, the ones that post the garbage you speak of are called the hivemind (as seems to be the popular term on r/starcraft). I watch hockey, being a Canadian. That doesn't make me a part of any hockey community.
To sum that up, my use of "the community" means people that are actually relevant to the StarCraft scene, even if only in small ways. Perhaps that's more technical and unorthodox than common, so I'll drop my earlier comments on the matter.
I do, however, still take issues with your coupling my concept of the community with the hivemind, assuming they think and act the same way and therefore consider ramp block to be nothing more than another freak out.
On August 15 2012 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
He said that to another person, about some things which I have never argued, never to me. I'm not talking about that, again, you may be confusing me with someone else, I never argued those 'facts', my statements are simple:
- There is no statistic proof whatsoever cited ever that ramp blocks are an imbalanced strategy.
- Playing all three races at a master league level myself, my personal experience is not that it is imbalanced, I can deal with it, and I've been defeated many times attempting it.
- The fact that Blizzard has not patched this strategy out of the ladder or nerfed it is a very strong indication of that it does not constitute an imbalance.
That's all I have claimed, I never claimed any of such other facts.
He didn't say it to you directly, but he said it in response to similar statements, namely Blizzard's stance on neutral supply depots and why they use it on WCS maps. You and I have since moved on to other arguments. Addressing your three points:
- No, but Blizzard has nerfed ramp blocks once before and even implement the community's solution of neutral lowered depots in their own WCS maps. In other words, it was imbalanced, it's believed to still be imbalanced, and Blizzard's recent actions lend credence to that. There are reasons stated as early as the OP itself as to why Blizzard likely won't add neutral depots on ladder maps, which is why they are currently lacking, much to the ire of some professional mapmakers and professional players.
- One man's experience isn't empirical proof either. Look at any balance whine thread and you'll find people giving examples on how they overcome the issue, yet we've still seen some of these issues addressed in balance patches anyway. A famous one back in the day was khaydarin amulet, with many people saying it was fine and that it could be overcome with ghosts and EMP. As I'm sure you realize, that upgrade can no longer be researched due to its removal from the game.
- Blizzard's been historically (and prudently) slow to address perceived balance issues, even when those issues are actually patched. Blizzard's eventual move to add neutral depots in their tournament maps seems like a strong indication that there are legs to this particular problem -- but we've already had this debate.
On August 15 2012 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Okay, then you simply think something is a problem that I don't think is a problem.
Yes, that is why we are arguing in the first place.
On August 15 2012 13:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I said that a thousand times already and I cited that asn argument that they are willing to change the footprint of ramps if they consider them imbalanced. They apparently consider 2 pylons needed imbalanced, but three balanced, pretty simple.
You do realize that it took Blizzard around a year to implement that nerf, right? Between beta (where the ramp block was possible) and the rest of 2010 with SC2's release, there was plenty of time. Blizzard always waits a while on these sorts of things, and for good reason. Modifying ramps is a big deal.
Regarding the ramp block's current state, it's been a year and a half since that nerf, one year of which has featured the neutral depots on tournament maps (first featured in GSL August, I believe, which started August 8th 2011). So, Blizzard basically has a half-year worth of GSL games, however long other tournaments took to implement the same thing, and Blizzcon 2011 for quality data on new ramp block. In this regard, it's understandable that they wouldn't have implemented neutral depots at Blizzcon given their prudent nature, yet now make use of it after acquiring their own tournament data, on top of what was seen before from other professional tournaments.
That's rationalization that actually makes sense, even if it is admittedly still rationalization. Not this "they had to do it to make the spectators happy" nonsense; if Blizzard ran their business like that, marauders and colossi wouldn't be in the game, we'd have clan support already, etc. etc.
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p.s. Oh god, previewing this post and it is looonnnggg. I think I'm gonna tap out of this discussion regardless, because this is sucking up too much of my personal time and I believe I've already made all the relevant points I'd want to make. Anything else will probably be debating ramp block theorycraft (we've already reached this point) and getting into what constitutes "the community" (already started down this path too, out of necessity for clarification but I don't wanna go further).
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