EPTWhen I was reading through I thought I recognized the high ground mech picture... sure enough it's the one I made with fraps as an example haha.
[A] Starbow - Page 99
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Falling
Canada11607 Posts
When I was reading through I thought I recognized the high ground mech picture... sure enough it's the one I made with fraps as an example haha. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On October 03 2012 07:28 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: As I've said before: Hydras should be balanced to be cost effective vs unupgraded stalkers and marines. They will lose 1v1 against a stalker and win 1v1 vs a marine, but if the armies are the same costs hydras should win - if barely. Stalkers and marines have upgrades that gives them distinct advantages to hydras increasing their cost-effectivenes in micro situations. Stim will increase dps and mobility so much that hydras will not stand a chance, while blink will allow micro to preserve damaged stalkers. Both upgrades turn the tables on hydras - meaning that hydras should have the edge damage-to-cost wise. I do like the idea of splitting the hydra attack to do more damage to air if they still have issues with defending. Jumping in here to say I agree with this. Pure Hydra versus pure Marine or Stalker, cost-to-cost, Hydra's should come out slightly ahead. Medics, Stim and Blink should be able to upset that though. I'll let others continue to play with the numbers, I'm no help with concrete math if I can't get my hands on the game personally, but hopefully you can all come to a solution that feels right. Still brainstorming new ideas in regards to the Zerg caster line-up, there has been a ton of food for thought posted since my last visit. I'll cover a few topics briefly though: A death-and-decay spell for Zerg would be cool, but keep in mind that it's extremely similar to Psi Storm - in fact it's the same spell with greatly reduced DPS in exchange for greater duration and potentially wider area covered. This DOES change the way the spell is used... but I feel like it's not unique enough unless we could find some other twist to it, to give it a little more novelty. Possible modifications include: - Only affects ground. - Affects buildings. (Could be overpowered since most buildings can't move, unless we make it unable to drop below 1 HP like Plague). - Causes some other negative effect on enemy units (slower attack speed/reduced armor?). - Heals Zerg units at the same rate it damages non-Zerg (I was going to say friendly Zerg units but it would be far too confusing in ZvZ). - Does bonus damage or only deals damage to a particular unit type (most likely Mechanical?). - The area affected by the spell starts small and slowly increases over the duration. Not all of these are necessary together but some combination should give it the distinct feel I think it needs. The fourth and sixth options feel the most Zergy to me, and I think making it ground-only might be necessary to really separate it from Storm. Also keep in mind that with a long duration this spell would be extremely abusable to cast on mineral lines unless we made it not effect workers or other hovering units, sort of like Spider Mines. Also from a flavor standpoint, this spell feels like it would fit better on the Infestor than the Viper/Guardian. Maybe consider making this the Fungal/Plague replacement... but then again, by being cast by an air unit rather than ground it would be less similar to Storm. Hmm. Other quick thoughts: December mentioned a spell like the BW Queen's Parasite that could slowly drain energy from enemy casters. This is actually verbatim one of the other miscellaneous ideas I had floating around! Might be worth looking into if we really need another anti-caster tactic at our disposal. This one is nice because it would lead to more of those pre-battle sort of scenarios Kabel described being fond of. If we do get rid of Fungal Growth (AND WE REALLY SHOULD) I'd still like to see Ensnare come back in some capacity. Slowing enemy units so that the swarm surround and overtake them is very Zergy. Also would like to see Contaminate return, but please not Changelings. Those things feel really gimmicky and the model/lore is tacky. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On October 03 2012 12:53 Von wrote: December, please cast more games. You're a good caster and I personally am already enjoying spectating Starbow games more than WoL (or HoTs for that matter) I like to really cherry pick the games I cast. Every game I cast will decide for a lot of people if they even bother trying the mod or not. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On October 03 2012 05:55 Kabel wrote: Missed this one. 1. It needs a good looking animation. (Which I am bad at making. Plus that the spell gotta be so good that its worth the effort) 2. If it is limited to bio only it will be a rather restricted spell. (Maybe it won´t make sense if the Infestor chew on metal units :p) 3. If it is a channeled spell it would be similar to Neural parasite. In my opinion Neural parasite is an excellent spell. Since I have also made Infestors able to use it while burrowed we might see more "bold" moves by Infestors now, because they are more protected underground. I am not a big fan of the HoTS abduct though. The reason is that the spell itself need a ball of units near it to actually kill anything. I fear that the Viper will be a unit that is limited to only float on top of the Zerg deathballs and pull units into it. I prefer units that can move more on their own, and in fact benefits from moving away from the army. Kabel, you make fantastic decisions. I love almost every single change you are making, and I was worried that you would include abduct. The fact that you are weary gives me hope. You have convinced me you are a great game designer  That said, I think the stalker/immortal design needs some sort of rework. Immortals are just too damn strong and generic. They give protoss much too easy of a time breaking siege lines. I'm my opinion, breaking siege lines should be a VERY difficult tast requiring many waves of protoss troops. The immortal absorbs so much damage, it makes breaking lurker and siege tank lines much less exciting. Consider nerfing the immortal and lowering the cost (and maybe supply, but I haven't really looked at that). A lower cost and weaker immortal would still have the added shield that would make it good against siege tanks, but they would die much faster (more exciting), and they would be more easily massed for a second and third wave. If someone asks, how is it different from the stalker? Immortals would still have a weaker version of hardened shield, they wouldn't shoot up, they can't blink, and they come from the robo. That is difference enough. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On October 02 2012 08:03 SmileZerg wrote: the Dark Swarm spell makes more logical sense and becomes much more dynamic in terms of decision-making on the Queen. Why is it more dynamic? - It strengthens the defender's advantage for Zerg by giving the Queens an additional method of response to sudden base raids. This is a primary design goal of the Starbow Mod - emphasized defender's advantage and area control. You might argue this could be too strong - again, that is a balance concern, which can be addressed by tweaking the stats of the spell itself. But we can't even know for sure if it is a balance problem until we try it out, whereas design problems are evident only through analysis and understanding of the fundamental mechanics inherent in all games. - It encourages creep spread (which is very Zergy in flavor and function) and nonlinear attack methods such as Ovie Drops and Nydus Worms (also Zergy) to use the spell offensively (heightened skill difficulty is healthy for competitive play). - It encourages macro Hatches to increase the number of Queens you can field late-game for a greater availability of Dark Swarms. Making macro Hatches is already something Zerg players should want to do as a result of the weaker larvae mechanics in Starbow. - By having Dark Swarm on a ground unit, which is sensible as it's a positional spell that affects ground, the dynamics of the map terrain come back into play as they did with Defilers, which increase the factors involved in the players decision-making when casting the spell, leading to greater complexity and tension. I shouldn't have to keep saying this but people seem to have a hard time grasping the concept that things like this are not about balance - we COULD balance the spell on an air caster, but that removes decision factors and makes it less interesting. So, I tried to keep an open mind, but for many of the same reasons that Kabel says later, I don't think dark swarm works well on the queen. I truly believe dark swarm needs to be on a unit with consume, or a consume like ability. Why? I'll get to that in a second. I think it is important to note that one of the key aspects of dark swarm in brood war (and part of what made it so cool), was that zerg depended on it so heavily. Why is that cool? It means that zergs would often get backed into a corner, where they looked like they would lose, but then dark swarm would kick in, and the game would slowly shift (exciting). Because they relied on it, it was an ability that was crucial, but also, you needed to cast it MANY MANY times to march your way across the map to the opponent's base. Without a consume like ability, in order to march, you would need a TON of casters, which takes supply and resources out of other units and makes your army look silly. Better to have consume  Also, to Kabel's point. In my opinion, there is a major reason to have dark swarm on a ground caster. You said that having it on an air caster creates dynamic and interesting battles for air control. I completely disagree that battling for air control in an RTS is interesting. Giving up air control in an RTS is interesting. Look at BW ZvZ. That was a match up of air control, and it was terrible to watch. Another example? Look at SC2 ZvP corrupter vs colossus battles (because the colossus is essentially an air unit). Those are so boring. Whenever you create a situation where both sides NEED air control to win, it gets boring. Having dark swarm on a ground caster allows the zerg to completely give up air control -- that is cool and creates interesting strategic options. Look at sc:bw ZvT -- fantastic match up where zergs gave up air control. Look at sc:bw ZvP -- fantastic match up where zerg gives up air control. (If you need me to explain why giving up air control in BW ZvT and ZvP made the match ups "fantastic," I will, but in a long follow-up post, so please let me know if you need that clarification). I think what you (Kabel) are trying to get at is temporarily seizing air control is exciting. Which I agree with. When a bw zerg makes a big round of scourge to try to take out corsairs and sci vessels, that's exciting! But zerg isn't battling for air control. They are just trying to slow down the opponent/gain an advantage by temporarily seizing air control. Having dark swarm on an air unit forces zerg to ALWAYS have air control because it needs to protect the important darkswarm-casting unit. Terran and protoss will need to ALWAYS have air control because dark swarm is so powerful, they can't let it go unchecked. This will potentially create boring situations like SC2 ZvP collosi vs corruptor battles, where both sides HAVE to devote everything to taking air control. TL:DR if dark swarm is on a ground unit, zerg can completely give up air control, which makes for more interesting games and tactics. | ||
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hipo
France482 Posts
On October 03 2012 17:05 Beef Noodles wrote: So, I tried to keep an open mind, but for many of the same reasons that Kabel says later, I don't think dark swarm works well on the queen. I truly believe dark swarm needs to be on a unit with consume, or a consume like ability. Why? I'll get to that in a second. I think it is important to note that one of the key aspects of dark swarm in brood war (and part of what made it so cool), was that zerg depended on it so heavily. Why is that cool? It means that zergs would often get backed into a corner, where they looked like they would lose, but then dark swarm would kick in, and the game would slowly shift (exciting). Because they relied on it, it was an ability that was crucial, but also, you needed to cast it MANY MANY times to march your way across the map to the opponent's base. Without a consume like ability, in order to march, you would need a TON of casters, which takes supply and resources out of other units and makes your army look silly. Better to have consume Also, to Kabel's point. In my opinion, there is a major reason to have dark swarm on a ground caster. You said that having it on an air caster creates dynamic and interesting battles for air control. I completely disagree that battling for air control in an RTS is interesting. Giving up air control in an RTS is interesting. Look at BW ZvZ. That was a match up of air control, and it was terrible to watch. Another example? Look at SC2 ZvP corrupter vs colossus battles (because the colossus is essentially an air unit). Those are so boring. Whenever you create a situation where both sides NEED air control to win, it gets boring. Having dark swarm on a ground caster allows the zerg to completely give up air control -- that is cool and creates interesting strategic options. Look at sc:bw ZvT -- fantastic match up where zergs gave up air control. Look at sc:bw ZvP -- fantastic match up where zerg gives up air control. (If you need me to explain why giving up air control in BW ZvT and ZvP made the match ups "fantastic," I will, but in a long follow-up post, so please let me know if you need that clarification). I think what you (Kabel) are trying to get at is temporarily seizing air control is exciting. Which I agree with. When a bw zerg makes a big round of scourge to try to take out corsairs and sci vessels, that's exciting! But zerg isn't battling for air control. They are just trying to slow down the opponent/gain an advantage by temporarily seizing air control. Having dark swarm on an air unit forces zerg to ALWAYS have air control because it needs to protect the important darkswarm-casting unit. Terran and protoss will need to ALWAYS have air control because dark swarm is so powerful, they can't let it go unchecked. This will potentially create boring situations like SC2 ZvP collosi vs corruptor battles, where both sides HAVE to devote everything to taking air control. TL:DR if dark swarm is on a ground unit, zerg can completely give up air control, which makes for more interesting games and tactics. Very good post. Another interesting example concerning air control is SC2's TvT. A lot of time, we see Terran trying to gain air control with a lot of Viking to protect Tanks from Banshee or drop and to give Tanks the additional sight they need to be effective. But sometime, you see Terran giving up air control (usually after loosing the first air battle) in favor of a ground army with Marine or Thor to protect the Tanks and with scan to provide the needed sight. It's a very interesting dynamic because both style have their pros and cons: the player that give up air control can make more ground units but he is also more vulnerable to drop and can't use as many mule since he have to save energy for scan... | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
You have some good points. But I think that air combat can become more dynamic.. One way is by having air units that deal splash damage, which is the case with Corsairs and Vikings here in Starbow. Scourges must engage from several angles, Carriers have the Brood War micro which allows them to move back and forth etc.. With such units in the game, air positioning and splitting plays a larger role than in Sc2. Often we see two armies of flying units just shoot at each other.. The units are designed to work that way and they barely benfit from micro or control.. That can also lead to more dynamic if ground units can play a part in air combat, which they for example indeed does in SC2 TvT. They never did in BW in ZvZ. Hydras were a joke and there was no strong ground caster (Infestor) that could turn the tide in a combat. That forced Zerg players to always go for air vs air since that was the best option. I am sure there is a wide definition of the term "air control." What I mean by it is methods players can use to prevent enemy air units from entering a certain territory. I would even say that the most common way for Terran to get air control vs Protoss in BW was to place Turrets on the battlefield, which prevented observers and Shuttles to drop Zealot bombs. Terran in such a scenario could not prevent the Shuttle from going all over the map, but he could prevent it from flying into key locations. When one player have complete air control means that he can move his air units anywhere on the battlefield. But for the most part the map is divided into small zones. A turret or a cannon or a hydralisk creates a small zone that denies air control in that particular area, since one golden rule in Starcraft is that ground vs air units are a lot stronger than air vs ground units. Having Dark Swarm on a flying caster might lead to more zone play. The enemy want Swarm Guardians to be unable to move into specific zones, and the Zerg must make sure that the Swarm Guardians can move into those zones. Players can use air units, ground units or defensive structures for this. If Terran or Protoss has too many units that stops a ground army, they won´t stop the Swarm Guardian. If they have too many units that stops the Swarm Guardian, they won´t stop the ground army. I imagine that we can see scenarios similar to Arbiters who tried to Recall vs Terran. That was one of the main reasons Terran bothered to make Turrets or place spider mines for protection at his borders. Sometimes we even saw Wraiths patrol or a Science Vessel ready with EMP at the locations the Arbiter might come from. (There is a pimpest play of this ^^) Terran did not bother to take air control over the entire map. He usually took it where it was important: at his bases and at his armies and he even moved out with Vessels to EMP the arbiter before a major engagement. And this will likely lead to more "battles before battles" vs Zerg, maybe with air units trying to strike down the Swarm Guardians, which makes combat more dynamic than if two armies just crash into each other. But I am in a hurry writing this, so my arguments might not be crystal clear and I might be wrong! Fast edit: Besides, there is really no ground unit to put Dark Swarm on. Infestors are so fine in SC2 that I don´t want to mess them up. Maybe Fungal only.. Queens could have been a good alternative but for various reasons it will be problemetaic. And having a third ground caster for Zerg at hive tech feels monotonous. A lack of diversity. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On October 03 2012 16:46 Danko__ wrote: Damn, guys. You are talking too much. I came here only to suggest to use Brutalisk model for "greater queen" .+1 | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On October 03 2012 17:05 Beef Noodles wrote: So, I tried to keep an open mind, but for many of the same reasons that Kabel says later, I don't think dark swarm works well on the queen. I truly believe dark swarm needs to be on a unit with consume, or a consume like ability. Why? I'll get to that in a second. I think it is important to note that one of the key aspects of dark swarm in brood war (and part of what made it so cool), was that zerg depended on it so heavily. Why is that cool? It means that zergs would often get backed into a corner, where they looked like they would lose, but then dark swarm would kick in, and the game would slowly shift (exciting). Because they relied on it, it was an ability that was crucial, but also, you needed to cast it MANY MANY times to march your way across the map to the opponent's base. Without a consume like ability, in order to march, you would need a TON of casters, which takes supply and resources out of other units and makes your army look silly. Better to have consume Also, to Kabel's point. In my opinion, there is a major reason to have dark swarm on a ground caster. You said that having it on an air caster creates dynamic and interesting battles for air control. I completely disagree that battling for air control in an RTS is interesting. Giving up air control in an RTS is interesting. Look at BW ZvZ. That was a match up of air control, and it was terrible to watch. Another example? Look at SC2 ZvP corrupter vs colossus battles (because the colossus is essentially an air unit). Those are so boring. Whenever you create a situation where both sides NEED air control to win, it gets boring. Having dark swarm on a ground caster allows the zerg to completely give up air control -- that is cool and creates interesting strategic options. Look at sc:bw ZvT -- fantastic match up where zergs gave up air control. Look at sc:bw ZvP -- fantastic match up where zerg gives up air control. (If you need me to explain why giving up air control in BW ZvT and ZvP made the match ups "fantastic," I will, but in a long follow-up post, so please let me know if you need that clarification). I think what you (Kabel) are trying to get at is temporarily seizing air control is exciting. Which I agree with. When a bw zerg makes a big round of scourge to try to take out corsairs and sci vessels, that's exciting! But zerg isn't battling for air control. They are just trying to slow down the opponent/gain an advantage by temporarily seizing air control. Having dark swarm on an air unit forces zerg to ALWAYS have air control because it needs to protect the important darkswarm-casting unit. Terran and protoss will need to ALWAYS have air control because dark swarm is so powerful, they can't let it go unchecked. This will potentially create boring situations like SC2 ZvP collosi vs corruptor battles, where both sides HAVE to devote everything to taking air control. TL:DR if dark swarm is on a ground unit, zerg can completely give up air control, which makes for more interesting games and tactics. Incidentally, I've been thinking about the Consume issue myself, and I actually agree with you. Of course I also share the standpoint that Dark Swarm should be cast by a ground unit... but I have concerns about using it on the Infestor, as Kabel does. Thus my reasoning that the Queen is really the only good solution, and though she is ALSO problematic, I think with the right modifications we can eventually make it work. I'm giving that a bit of a rest for now though, because personally I want to focus on the Viper, Fungal, and the new suggestion for a death-and-decay type spell that seemed to get a few people excited. I had a sudden explosion of ideas this morning and I need some time to get my thoughts in order. Quick miscellaneous side note: Kabel have you continued to give any thought to my suggestion to lower Stalker attack speed and increase damage by 40% each? Or in other words, 10 dmg at 1.25 --> 14 dmg at 1.75; DPS remains the same. Just a small tweak to increase microability, worth trying out I think, let the Protoss players decide if it's better or not. Edit: @ Beef Noodles Oh, in regards to the Immortal, it's actually not the same as the current SC2 version. Hardened Shields only cap damage at 20, not 10. I also think the attack speed is slower, and the cost is totally different. | ||
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scen
Wales61 Posts
On October 03 2012 21:17 SmileZerg wrote: Quick miscellaneous side note: Kabel have you continued to give any thought to my suggestion to lower Stalker attack speed and increase damage by 40% each? Or in other words, 10 dmg at 1.25 --> 14 dmg at 1.75; DPS remains the same. Just a small tweak to increase microability, worth trying out I think, let the Protoss players decide if it's better or not. i'd approve of this, makes stalkers more microable. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Or in other words, 10 dmg at 1.25 --> 14 dmg at 1.75; DPS remains the same Its already in game for quite some time. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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SKDN
Sweden243 Posts
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Isillian
United Kingdom145 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Isillian
United Kingdom145 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Trotim
Germany95 Posts
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