EPTOn October 03 2012 04:15 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
I take it you have never seen Jangbi play?
I take it you have never seen Jangbi play?
i take it you havent played sc2
[A] Starbow - Page 98
| Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games |
|
scen
Wales61 Posts
i take it you havent played sc2 | ||
|
Danko__
Poland429 Posts
| ||
|
SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On October 03 2012 04:16 ArkussSC2 wrote: New approach smile, trying to work with you instead of yell at you. Hope its showing. I would love it of you could ob some of our games, waiting for your crappy comp for 2-3 mins to load isn't a big issue because it will Give you a better understanding of what's currently going on. I really appreciate it, thank you. I'll see if I can get on tonight to do some obsing. | ||
|
Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@Hydras We have felt the same way on EU. Hydras with damage 8 are very good vs everything. BW had this interaction between Zerg and Protoss: Zealots kill Hydras and Zerglings... Lurkers kill Zealots... Dragoons kill Lurkers... When Zealots charged into Hydras the fun micro started for Zerg: They needed to split their hydras and could with good splits fight much better vs Zealots, than if they just stand in a clump. Right now you can keep the Hydras in a clump and beat Zealots. (You barely need lurkers or banelings.. Hydras seem to kill marines and medics too!) In Starbow it can look something like this: Zealots kill Zerglings & Hydras - Lurkers & Banelings kill Zealots - Stalkers & Immortal kill Lurkers - Hydras & Zerglings kill Stalkers & Immortal? The only thing in this chain that might be weird is that Stalkers & Immortals beat the same units? (Do Stalkers even beat lurkers in this?) On the other hand, Immortals are much better than Stalkers and Zealots at absorbing damage from Banelings. + Show Spoiler + (Many players want me to remove Immortals and Banelings from the game entirely. But I prefer to find uses for units instead of removing them cause they don´t fit into the exact BW interactions. Banelings makes ZvZ more interesting and Baneling drops is a nice thing in all match ups. Immortals, with their precious shield, is an important target for EMP and marines to focus fire and actually makes it harder for Terran to go pure mech, which leads to a more dynamic match up. Its also an important unit in PvP. ) I have two suggestions for the Hydra damage: Hydras deal 7 damage vs everything and +3 damage vs armored. They will be better vs Wraiths, Mutalisks and Corsairs now than eaerlier, when they only dealt 6 damage. Still they will be worse vs Zealots and Marines, compared to now. Hydras deal 6 damage vs everything and +4 damage vs armored. (As before) One problem was that they were very bad vs Wraiths, Corsairs and Mutalisks. I can add an invisible behaviour to each flying unit that makes them take for example 2 extra damage from the Hydra attack. I can add an icon to the Hydra that says: "Corrosive spines - All air units takes 2 extra damage from the Hydras attack" In this way, the Hydra will deal 6 dmg to NON-armored ground units, 10 damage to armored ground units and buildings, 8 damage to NON-armored air units and 12 damage to armored air units. Too complicated? Too good? But why don´t you just add new armor classes? + Show Spoiler + I have tried but I don´t understand how it can be done. >.< If the game can be balanced without it, It would save me some work to not add new armor classes. Also, if I make Mutalisks, Corsairs and Wraiths armored, that would screw up some other units interaction.. Void Rays would be good vs Wraiths.. Wraits would deal double damage vs mutalisks.. Goliaths would be devestating vs all air units.. @ Spells for Zerg Preferably I will try to not mess too much with the Infestor. Simply because I have done sooo much crazy stuff with it earlier. The SC2 Infestor is a well designed unit in that regard that it is useful to get! (It might be OP in SC2, but it can be used in lots of interesting ways.) So I would prefer to keep it as true to its original concept as possible, with only minor tweaks to it. Maybe replace Fungal Growth with Plague or change the way Fungal works. (Since that seems to be the biggest problem in SC2) But I will not likely add lots of new spells or Dark Swarm or anything to it. The Swarm Guardian and the Overseer are casters that have room for more... wacky ideas ^^ Maybe Parasite from BW or Changeling can be valid candidates for the Overseer? Bring back contaminate? I actually like that idea you had decemberscalm, to remake that old Warcraft 2 spell. "Death and decay." (Or it was in WC3 too?) Swarm Guardian covers an area with "slime" or something else to represent that its dangerous to stand there.. All units, or only enemy units, take damage while in that area. Maybe even a percentage of their HP as damage per second.. O_o The spell lasts a while.. 30 seconds? The Swarm Guardian would get 2 very strong area control spells. One that protects your units in an area and one that is like Plague but with a damage over time - effect. (Or maybe its too much to keep on the same unit..Hm.. ) Roblin suggested a while ago that the Swarm Guardian should have some kind of cheaper spell too, so it gets more versatility. Sometimes you dont have time to wait for Dark Swarm so you use the weaker but cheaper spell. The Vipers way to regenerate energy is a nice thing. But I will wait for HoTS before I add any of those spells, simply because if I remake them they will not look, work or feel as good as the originals. Generally Zerg seems to miss a way to pick apart enemy casters.. Neural parasite is good vs Science Vessels since they often move out of the army to cast their spells. So you can catch and Scourge them. But Zerg seems to have a hard time vs High Templars and Dark Archons.. No really good way to snipe them before a major engagement. Maybe Mutalisks can do it. Generally I like "combats before combats" , for example when Ghosts move out before an engagement to EMP the Protoss casters, or Defilers in BW threw Plague on the enemy units, or Vessels Irradiate the enemy lurkers etc.. One thing that would fit into the sneaky theme of Zerg would be if Changeling had some kind of "suicide" effect.. Move up to the enemy army, detonate the bomb at the enemy casters.. Or stand near them to give them damage over time, remove energy per second or slow them, until the enemy notices that there is an intruder in their army. Such a spell could be fun if designed and balanced properly, but it could also be something extremely annoying and hard to deal with. Zerg casters would be something like this: - Queens remain as they are. - Infestors remain close to their sneaky but versatile nature in SC2. They have so many uses: they can harass the economy, be a part in a fight, snipe key units.. We just have to make sure that they are not the best possible unit in all areas, hence Zerg will only need Infestors. - Overseer can have room for 1 or 2 spells. (Preferably non-combat spells.) - The Swarm Guardian will likely be replaced by the Viper when HoTS comes. (Since the model and everything is much better) So maybe we can design Swarm Guardian as if it were the Viper. I think there are ways to make Dark Swarm fit well with this unit. We just need additional spells and a overall more distinct role for the caster. Maybe it should no longer be a "Guardian of the swarm", which was the orginial intent. It got Dark Swarm and Frenzy as two spells who purely made the fighting units stronger. I am not sure exactly what role the Viper actually has in HoTS. This is what I usually look at when I evaluate spells. For those who care how I reason ^^ + Show Spoiler + - What can players do with it? (Nerve Jammer can be used to shut down enemy siege units, protect your own units from melee attacks, shut down ramps and important choke points etc) - What kinds of scenarios does the spell create? (Dark Swarm indirectly creates a fight over air control. The enemy do not want the caster to get into crucial positions so they can cast it at their bases. Once the spell is casted, it creates areas in the battlefield that can be used by both players for protection. ) - What is the worst possible abuse of it? (If a player builds 50 Medics and Shield has a cooldown, can the Medics permanently protect the Battlecruisers? Yes they can.. Thats why I added a limit of only 1 per Medic..) - Is the spell doing something the race can´t do otherwise? (Feedback is the only way to instantly kill a specific unit from a distance) - Does the spell make sense? (Preferably a spell gotta be understandable, visual, fit into the race and overall just be elegant.) | ||
|
decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Stalkers don't really have a problem with lurkers at all, their range especially with the upgrade is already so good you've usually got an instant concave on the lurkers from just an a move. Blink makes them even better. Their also super maneuverable so they can just dance all day long away from lurker burrows. Lurker is pretty much only to kill zealot or force obs. Immortal with their +dmg to armor annihilate lurker. I always recommend them to busting lurker contains. Zealots are so good you still need at least banes or lurks to fight zealot or even worse, archon zealot composition. I love the idea you proposed for the hydra damage. Terran has stim for warding off air harass, and toss have blink stalkers. Hydras can now be useful for anti air, especially with the range upgrade. @Swarm Gaurdian/Viper Viper with a long duration slow damage aoe spell would fit the name perfectly. If you want I can toy with the data editor and see what sort of consume on buildings I can come up with. @Zerg sniping Obviously scourge is very scourgey. I suggestible an abduct sort of spell that would work only on bio for the enemy ground casters. That changeling idea is amazing, perhaps give it to the swarm guardian as its utility spell? The problem is that I haven't seen any gsl pro's EVER let a changeling go by without getting immediately target fired. I'm sure it'll be great for our current player pool, everyone makes mistakes at our level but having something like that as your go to snipe isn't really a reliable way to kill things like scourge, snipe, and irradiate are. What about the BW queens parasite but it kills the enemy unit after a certain time? Or drains their energy? I'll think more about this. | ||
|
Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Another wacky idea, give abduct to infestor for bio only, but it starts eating the unit, which could either regain hp for the infestor or start making a whole new unit like a permanent infested marine, or maybe just whatever bio unit it abducted. Instead of scv lines getting fungal'ed, burrowed infestors could make their way in and just start abducting scv's. Always used to snipe Templar or snipers trying to snipe SG's. There, it's now a better designed spell than HOTS abduct. Missed this one. 1. It needs a good looking animation. (Which I am bad at making. Plus that the spell gotta be so good that its worth the effort) 2. If it is limited to bio only it will be a rather restricted spell. (Maybe it won´t make sense if the Infestor chew on metal units :p) 3. If it is a channeled spell it would be similar to Neural parasite. In my opinion Neural parasite is an excellent spell. Since I have also made Infestors able to use it while burrowed we might see more "bold" moves by Infestors now, because they are more protected underground. I am not a big fan of the HoTS abduct though. The reason is that the spell itself need a ball of units near it to actually kill anything. I fear that the Viper will be a unit that is limited to only float on top of the Zerg deathballs and pull units into it. I prefer units that can move more on their own, and in fact benefits from moving away from the army. | ||
|
APPSCI
United States51 Posts
| ||
|
decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On October 03 2012 05:55 Kabel wrote: Missed this one. 1. It needs a good looking animation. (Which I am bad at making. Plus that the spell gotta be so good that its worth the effort) 2. If it is limited to bio only it will be a rather restricted spell. (Maybe it won´t make sense if the Infestor chew on metal units :p) 3. If it is a channeled spell it would be similar to Neural parasite. In my opinion Neural parasite is an excellent spell. Since I have also made Infestors able to use it while burrowed we might see more "bold" moves by Infestors now, because they are more protected underground. I am not a big fan of the HoTS abduct though. The reason is that the spell itself need a ball of units near it to actually kill anything. I fear that the Viper will be a unit that is limited to only float on top of the Zerg deathballs and pull units into it. I prefer units that can move more on their own, and in fact benefits from moving away from the army. It would be restricted because you already have a snipe vs air casters from the opposing army with scourge. For ground you have no solution to Templar and ghosts. Unfortunately that leaves Dark Archon. My main gripe with abduct from HOTS is that its always used on units like siege tanks and colossus which actually punished spread out units. Limit it to cheaper bio units (expensive bio casters too, but we wanted a snipe for those in the first place) and it should be fixed sans dark archon. If you let it simply eat the abducted unit then you don't need a supporting army. Its a utility spell like irradiate. If there is no enemy caster you can still use it to kill a few units. For the chanelled spell I was referring to HOTS consume. Did I miscommunicate something somewhere? | ||
|
ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
I think bring back the Zerg hydra to 6 damage and remove the armoured damage buff. The reason Hydra was so weak to Muta Wraith Corsair etc was the economic trade off. The economy was very slow causing any unit to have to do x amount of damage before it died to have any value. Hydra's being 1 supply and aggressive air units being 2 supply, you expect that Hydra should lose 1v1 and it should. The issue we had was when Mutas Wraiths or Corsairs came, you had only the same amount of hydras as your opponent does air units or abit more, but not enough to ward them away. Now with the economic buff, you can have 10-12 hydras to fight off 5 mutas and afford to split your hydras to protect greater surface area where before the economy wouldn't allow you to split your forces simply because you didn't have enough of them. We want Hydras to be able to defend against air harass but not be able to stop it completely. Also when it comes to +Armor the only use I can think of for this is Hydra vs Immortal and Hydra vs Stalker. Immortals lose to Hydras because Immortals themselves are anti armour units with low damage vs non armour. Stalkers and Hydras should be a good fight but 1 on 1 the Stalker should win (as the Dragoon did vs Hydra) For hydra's vs Terran I found TvZ had no change on the patch buff to Hydras. Marines still slaughter hydra's once stim pack is researched , especially so if they had the medic's shield ability. @Infestor Switching plague for fungal would be perfectly fine. That's essentially what a non snaring fungal would be anyways. You could even keep the current fungle spell module and just change it's effects to what you would like plague to do. @Caster Sniping We don't need a method of sniping casters on the ground. We have mutas which are great but they have a risk/reward scenario at sniping casters. (Example: Kil the high templar, get stormed on in the process. is it worth it? ) and scourges for the skies. We also have fungal on infestors so we can burrow tunnel up to enemy casters and fungal ontop of them before storming in. @Overseer I don't think making the overseer a caster is a necessity. I'm fine with the overseer simply being our tech path to detection. Terran needs a Starport + Tech lab, Protoss needs Cybernetics Core then Robotics, we need Lair then Morph. It all works out to be a tier 2 path and I think thats fine the way it is. I'm still highly against Overlords being our default protection because it has too many durastic gameplay changes As for the changeling. Making the changeling an explosive bomb would be incredibly op  @Heart of the Swarm . . . .. This expansion is by far Blizzard's biggest fail in the Starcraft universe. They've already removed 2 units (replicant and warhound) and are still having issues with the remaining units (Swarm Host being called OP, Tempest with 22 range wtf). I think the best bet for Starbow's sake of an Expansion is to take HotS unit models and just completely rework the units to do what we might need in the mod. I don't think theres a single unit in Blizzards HOTS that I like everything about. | ||
|
decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Ghosts sniping zerg casters could be a problem? Though not many T's actually get around to using ghosts, my fault as well, the good ole bringing down the hammer with fighting units is just so much more simple. | ||
|
Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On October 03 2012 05:25 Kabel wrote: I appreciate that many of you studies and plays this MOD in depth to find flaws and room for improvement. So please continue to share things that seem fishy so this can develop into a better game. @Hydras We have felt the same way on EU. Hydras with damage 8 are very good vs everything. BW had this interaction between Zerg and Protoss: Zealots kill Hydras and Zerglings... Lurkers kill Zealots... Dragoons kill Lurkers... When Zealots charged into Hydras the fun micro started for Zerg: They needed to split their hydras and could with good splits fight much better vs Zealots, than if they just stand in a clump. Right now you can keep the Hydras in a clump and beat Zealots. (You barely need lurkers or banelings.. Hydras seem to kill marines and medics too!) In Starbow it can look something like this: Zealots kill Zerglings & Hydras - Lurkers & Banelings kill Zealots - Stalkers & Immortal kill Lurkers - Hydras & Zerglings kill Stalkers & Immortal? The only thing in this chain that might be weird is that Stalkers & Immortals beat the same units? (Do Stalkers even beat lurkers in this?) On the other hand, Immortals are much better than Stalkers and Zealots at absorbing damage from Banelings. + Show Spoiler + (Many players want me to remove Immortals and Banelings from the game entirely. But I prefer to find uses for units instead of removing them cause they don´t fit into the exact BW interactions. Banelings makes ZvZ more interesting and Baneling drops is a nice thing in all match ups. Immortals, with their precious shield, is an important target for EMP and marines to focus fire and actually makes it harder for Terran to go pure mech, which leads to a more dynamic match up. Its also an important unit in PvP. ) I have two suggestions for the Hydra damage: Hydras deal 7 damage vs everything and +3 damage vs armored. They will be better vs Wraiths, Mutalisks and Corsairs now than eaerlier, when they only dealt 6 damage. Still they will be worse vs Zealots and Marines, compared to now. Hydras deal 6 damage vs everything and +4 damage vs armored. (As before) One problem was that they were very bad vs Wraiths, Corsairs and Mutalisks. I can add an invisible behaviour to each flying unit that makes them take for example 2 extra damage from the Hydra attack. I can add an icon to the Hydra that says: "Corrosive spines - All air units takes 2 extra damage from the Hydras attack" In this way, the Hydra will deal 6 dmg to NON-armored ground units, 10 damage to armored ground units and buildings, 8 damage to NON-armored air units and 12 damage to armored air units. Too complicated? Too good? But why don´t you just add new armor classes? + Show Spoiler + I have tried but I don´t understand how it can be done. >.< If the game can be balanced without it, It would save me some work to not add new armor classes. Also, if I make Mutalisks, Corsairs and Wraiths armored, that would screw up some other units interaction.. Void Rays would be good vs Wraiths.. Wraits would deal double damage vs mutalisks.. Goliaths would be devestating vs all air units.. cant you just add another attack on the hydra? for example, the thor in SC2 has 2 distinct attacks, 1 works against air units the other works against ground units, same thing with queens. cant you just make hydras have 2 attacks? attack 1: can only hit ground units, range X, damage 6 + 4 vs armored attack 2: can only hit air units, range X, damage 8 + 4 vs armored gives the exact same result but doesn't need the "invisible behaviour on all flying units" you were talking about. as for swarm guardian... you already know my stance. a spell that costs less than 100 energy. the surrounding details of how it would work is not something I want to get involved in. but if the swarm guardian being defensively/supportively themed is officially scrapped then I would recommend a snipe spell. the only other snipe spell zerg has is neural parasite, and the mechanics of NP as a snipe spell is a little wonky mainly the fact that it deals no damage combined with the fact that the infestor is put into (relative) danger, in my opinion it is the worst snipe spell in the game since it is never guaranteed damage and there is much more risk involved because it is also the only channeled ability in the game. aside from nukes. EMP lockdown sniper round feedback none of them are channeled and only lockdown do not do damage (EMP either damages shields or completely neutralizes spellcasters, effectively killing them instantly for the battle). granted, I haven't played the last few weeks, just lurked the forums, so if others disagree then they are probably right. on a sidenote: I demand more casts. have a nice day // Roblin edit: appearantly my 777th post | ||
|
PsykoMantis
United States203 Posts
I think Kabel's idea on Smilezergs's idea of having the queen morph into a new unit that can cast dark swarm is a good idea, you could use the old queen model from BW and still have it be a flying unit. The only issue is that the maximum number of the new queens you can produce at a time is equivalent to the number of hatcheries you have, which would slow down their production greatly and not allow for those drastic tech switches that are so zerg like. However, if you were to reduce queen build time to an appropriate amount I think it would be pretty viable, and the added bonus is that early game zerg econ will be strengthened just a tiny bit by the improved queen build time, something that could be good for the game. But in the end all this changes is where the swarm guardian comes from...and thats about it, don't know if it would cause a huge change in the balance/design of the spell at all. | ||
|
Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@ Hydra.. Hm, if they deal no extra damage vs armored they will feel kinda dull.. They can not snipe cannons or bunkers or be good at tearing down forges and gateways at the Protoss natural.. They will not be good vs Battlecruisers or Carriers (with armor 3-6).. They will probably not be cost effective even vs Goliaths.. So I think some kind of extra bonus vs armor can be needed. I do agree that Hydras shall not be able to completely shut down enemy air harassment so easily. But I think that they shall be cost effective when fighting air units, which was not the case earlier. Maybe the increased economy can fix it.. Even though I suspect that a small damage bonus will be needed vs air. | ||
|
ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
@december Again, I don't think we need to worry about our casters being sniped. A viking or wraith will ward off a Swarm Guardian but brining Scourges will ward off the viking, so it all comes down to micro and positioning, as it should. Our infestors can sit in our attack ball as all casters do and can burrow if feeling threatened by enemy units sniping them. @Kabel Unit for unit no they will not be but the whole point of Zerg is Swarm. We have alternative measures vs Battle Cruiser/Carrier being corruptors/scourges/infestor and for cannon/bunkers we overwhelm them, thats how we won in Broodwar. Lurkers with lings and hydras infront also break down walls and defenses incredibly fast. I'm just wanting to emphasize the "swarm" aspect of Zerg. Starcraft is a game where Zerg = Quantity over Quality. Protoss = Quality over Quantity. Terran = average joe with decent quantity and quality. | ||
|
decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On October 03 2012 06:53 ArkussSC2 wrote: Mantis <3 come in the channel so I can kick your ass a bit ;-) @december Again, I don't think we need to worry about our casters being sniped. A viking or wraith will ward off a Swarm Guardian but brining Scourges will ward off the viking, so it all comes down to micro and positioning, as it should. Our infestors can sit in our attack ball as all casters do and can burrow if feeling threatened by enemy units sniping them. BACK OFF KABEL, HE'S OUR NEW BLOOD! NA Got to watch a somehow fun match of PvP, match point+Starbow accomplished that. PvP fun to watch? Is this reaaaaaalllly the third planet from the sun? | ||
|
ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
| ||
|
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Hydras should be balanced to be cost effective vs unupgraded stalkers and marines. They will lose 1v1 against a stalker and win 1v1 vs a marine, but if the armies are the same costs hydras should win - if barely. Stalkers and marines have upgrades that gives them distinct advantages to hydras increasing their cost-effectivenes in micro situations. Stim will increase dps and mobility so much that hydras will not stand a chance, while blink will allow micro to preserve damaged stalkers. Both upgrades turn the tables on hydras - meaning that hydras should have the edge damage-to-cost wise. I do like the idea of splitting the hydra attack to do more damage to air if they still have issues with defending. | ||
|
Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
| ||
|
Von
United States363 Posts
On October 03 2012 06:56 decemberscalm wrote: BACK OFF KABEL, HE'S OUR NEW BLOOD! NA Got to watch a somehow fun match of PvP, match point+Starbow accomplished that. PvP fun to watch? Is this reaaaaaalllly the third planet from the sun? December, please cast more games. You're a good caster and I personally am already enjoying spectating Starbow games more than WoL (or HoTs for that matter) | ||
|
ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
| ||
| ||
